I have been attending church and have been "pseudo" dating a christian girl for some time now, and am really struggling to find truth in christianity and Jesus. I feel like I need some sort of dramatic event to occur for me to start believing. Yes the bible is convincing in what it says, but the thing is i'm not convinced the bible is real. I need hard evidence or current proof that there is such a thing as a God and that Jesus was his son. Does anybody have any suggestions or thoughts to help? Thanks.
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trying to believe
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Holden11 said:
Hi Holden,
You're not going to like this, but I'm afraid that no one can provide "hard evidence" or "current proof" that Christianity is real. I can, however, tell you why I believe in God and Christianity.
Why do I believe in God? Well, for me, it's always been a question of "How was Earth created?" I honestly cannot see how the Earth could have created itself. Many people (i.e. non-believers) will cite the Big Bang Theory, but then I will say, "Okay, how did that come about? B/c it certainly wasn't a spontaneous random event." B/c things cannot create themselves, there had to be some kind of extraordinary outside intervention or force which caused these things to happen. Hence, this is where the Creator God comes in. I believe that He is the force behind all this creative actions. As the saying goes, "With God, no explanation is necessary. Without God, no explanation is possible" (forgot who said this, sorry).
Another reason why I believe in God is b/c I believe w/o Him, life would have no meaning. Earthly life is hard- you know that yourself. Do you really believe that we were just thrown into this planet at random to struggle all our lives for it to all just end in death? I do not. Can you explain to me what the point of such an existence would be? I believe that this Earth is a test- a preparation for the next life. When one understands this to be the case, suddenly life takes on a whole new meaning.
Okay, those are my reasons for believing in a God. Next comes the question of whether or not Christianity is real, and whether Christ is really God's son. Again, this cannot be definitively proven. However, for me, it really all comes down to Christ's sacrifice. I guess I just can't imagine why Christ would willingly endure such a painful death if it was all in vain. I can't think of another religion where such a sacrifice was made (maybe someone else can). To me, sacrifice=love. I honestly don't think a mere human being (i.e. one w/o a divine nature) would be able to die for all of mankind (yes, others were crucified in Christ's time, but the motive of dying to self for the sake of others did not exist behind their deaths). Sorry, but most humans just aren't that courageous. So, although this is not definitive proof, I have interpreted the love of Christ to be not of this world (i.e. of a divine nature).
Proof of the Bible? Well, I'll just say that for me, a lot of what is said about sin and evil in there is blatantly evident in my eyes. Like where it says people often are proud of things which should cause them shame and vice versa. I forget where this passage is exactly, but I'll try to find it for you. I've witnessed this particular phenomenon in my everyday life, and I have definitely found it to be true.
Now, you also make reference to personal revelation (i.e. a revelation of some sort which would make you believe). I can tell you that these do exist- I had one last year. However, they are usually not very dramatic when they do occur (this was the case w/ mine). However, when you have one, everything falls into place. I know b/c it happened to me.
If you want to believe (and I can see that you do), you must be patient and give things time. Sometimes, we are not ready to fully understand a concept. It takes much investigation, openness, and humility to reach it. The key is to remain open. Remind yourself that anything is possible- including finding the truth in Christianity. You're trying. This is what counts- this effort you are making. And always be persistent in your efforts. Never give up- even if you feel it's hopeless.
It is possible to gain faith. Read my testimony ("Rosa's Life Story") in the testimonies forum. It's proof that this is possible.
Stay strong, bro. God bless you.
Rosa Mystica
P.S. If you have any further questions, PM me anytime. I'll do my best to answer them.
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Hi Holden11, first of all Id like to commend you for not putting this issue on the backburner of your life, but placing it as a priority in your life, and also for seeking and demanding the truth, not just believing because other people believe. In your post, you indicated that there are three areas that you need information about: Is the Bible real (historically accurate)? Is God real? Is Jesus who the Bible says he is? These are three excellent questions, and although I cannot even begin to answer any of these questions in entirety, but I will share the facts that have made the greatest impression on my mind.
Is the Bible real (historically accurate)?
First lets talk about the New Testament. The gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written in about 60 A.D., give or take a couple years. Jesus was put to death between 30 and 33 A.D. That leaves only 30 years between when the events happened and when the gospels were written. Historically speaking, this is a news flash, and there is no possible way for legends, myths, or inaccurate details to become incorporated into the gospels. Let me tell you why. First, most of the people who were around during Jesus ministry and death were still around 30 years later, when the gospels were written and the disciples began preaching them. So if there were any false details, people would have said Hey that didnt happen or He didnt say that or something of the sort. Secondly, Paul and the other disciples gave their lives for their beliefs! They knew what they witnessed and knew that it was the truth. If they had been making the whole thing up, or exaggerating the truth about Jesus rising from the dead or something, they would never have died for their beliefs! Third the New Testament has not only survived in more manuscripts than any other book of antiquity, but it has survived in a purer form than any other great book a form that is 99.5 percent pure (The Case for Christ, 65). For further information on this, I highly recommend The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel. It also talks about how there were many instances during Jesus ministry where there were crowds of people as witnesses, and also how other secular historians from the first century also recorded some of the events that are found in the New Testament.
Next lets look at the Old Testament. A surprising piece of evidence is the fact the no discovery has ever disproved a biblical reference. Now I know youre thinking what about evolution and things like that, but thats a whole different story considering that evolution is just a theory, and also that it is possible to both believe in the Bible and in evolution; its just a matter of interpretation. But what Im really getting at are things like how the Bible talks about the Hittite people, and until about 20 years ago there was no evidence of these people, but since then archaeologists found the Hittite civilization. Also the Bible says that the walls of Jericho fell out, when walls in the Old Testament times normally fell inwards. However when an archaeological dig was conducted in the city of Jericho, they found that the walls fell out. Also, the genealogical records that the Bible provides are historically accurate. Also, biblical events such as the Flood, have been corroborated by finds such as : marine fossils atop every mountain range in the world, including giant (650 pound) oysters at the top of the Andes Mountains; also other cultures ancient stories and traditions talk about a great flood. To learn more, visit h t t p : / / w w w . christian - - science . c o m / (except take out all of the spaces I put in; apparently Im not allowed to post a link until I have 15 posts or something). By the way, I dont personally agree with the segments on the link about dinosaurs and evolution, but I think the other articles are very good.
Is God real?
Im assuming you want hard facts about this subject, and not spiritual answers, because although those are very powerful, you personally cannot evaluate their truth, but have to rely on someone elses judgment. So Ill give you the best physical arguments I have for this case. First where did the earth come from? Lets say humans evolved from primates, which evolved from reptiles, which evolved from marine life, which evolved from multi-cellular organisms, which evolved from single-celled organisms, which evolved from amoebas, which evolved from protein chains, which evolved from the abundance of elements produced by the big bang, which came from oh crud where does that come from?. Now matter how you retrace history, eventually you get to a point where everything came from nothing. Now this doesnt really jive with the first law of thermodynamics which says that energy and mass are always conserved in given system, in other words, energy and mass cannot spontaneously appear or disappear, only converted to one form or another. I would take this one step further to say that energy and mass cannot create or destroy themselves. Based on this fundamental principle of physics, how could all of the energy and mass in the universe spontaneously create itself? It is impossible. Even the most renowned physicist of our age, Stephen Hawking, said that the fact that the universe had a beginning implies a Creator. Now on to less scientifically-oriented proof .youve probably already heard the intelligent design argument, but in case you havent Ill tell it to you. It asks: if you were walking in a forest and found a watch on the ground, wouldnt you assume that the watch was made by someone, and didnt just naturally coalesce? Why, then, would you look at the tree next to the watch and assume the exact opposite? The intelligent design of a watch implies a watchmaker, so likewise, the intelligent design of creation implies a creator. Just look how intricate everything in nature is. From the leaf of a tree to a human brain, everything in nature is of intelligent design and implies an intelligent creator. Besides these intellectually logical proofs of Gods existence, there are thousands of spiritual proofs of Gods existence. I cannot tell you how many prayers of mine have been answered, down to the very last details. But no matter how many scientific proofs you hear or how many miracles you witness, there is a moment in you where you just know, not in your mind, but in your spirit, in your whole being, that there is a God. Its not a moment where fireworks go off or where a booming voice talks to you, but just a period of understanding that happens once you trust in God. At least that is what it has been for me. Oh yeah, on to the third question.
Is Jesus who the Bible says he is?
This question relies heavily on the accuracy and validity of the New Testament itself. I already talked about this in the response to the first question. Let me just add some arguments for the truth of his crucifixion and resurrection, because frankly, no matter how perfect Jesus was during his life, if he didnt raise from dead to conquer death, there would be no point in believing in him. First we need to make sure he died, and then we need to make sure he rose from the dead. One theory is that Jesus never really died on the cross, but merely fainted, and then later regained consciousness. This really can hardly be called a theory because it completely lacks credibility. Before he even got to the cross, Jesus was tortured by flogging, which would have caused him to lose such large amounts of blood that many people would have died just from this. Then when he got to the cross he would have died from asphyxiation (cannot breathe) since the hanging position on the cross inhibits exhaling. Furthermore, a Roman soldier stabbed a spear into his right side to see if blood and water came out, which was the sign of death, and it did. There is no way someone could survive all of these things. Jesus was definitely dead when he was buried in the tomb, and if he wasnt, how could he recover enough to push away the boulder in front of the tomb that would take several men to push away? It is simply impossible by human standards. Yet three days later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene (John 20:10-18), other women (Matthew 28:8-10), Cleopas and another disciple (Luke 24:13-32), eleven disciples and others (Luke 24:33-49), to ten apostles and others (John 20:19-23), to Thomas and the other apostles (John 20:26-30), to seven apostles (John 21:1-13), to the disciples (Matthew 28:16-20), and to 500 people (1 Corinthians 15). Now you might say well how do I know these people really saw him? and the answer is you dont. But you have to consider that most of the disciples spent the rest of their lives proclaiming that Jesus died on the cross, and rose from the dead. In return for this they were ridiculed, beaten, imprisoned, and most were executed. Why would they die for this if they knew it wasnt true? If they knew deep down that they never saw Jesus resurrected, they would never give their lives up for a lie. That is, for me, the most significant evidence.
Well I hope I have presented some reasonable arguments for you to ponder over. I really recommend reading The Case for Christ, because it goes through every possible theory or flaw in Jesus story and you will be surprised by how solid the case really is. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask. Keep seeking the truth.
Is the Bible real (historically accurate)?
First lets talk about the New Testament. The gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written in about 60 A.D., give or take a couple years. Jesus was put to death between 30 and 33 A.D. That leaves only 30 years between when the events happened and when the gospels were written. Historically speaking, this is a news flash, and there is no possible way for legends, myths, or inaccurate details to become incorporated into the gospels. Let me tell you why. First, most of the people who were around during Jesus ministry and death were still around 30 years later, when the gospels were written and the disciples began preaching them. So if there were any false details, people would have said Hey that didnt happen or He didnt say that or something of the sort. Secondly, Paul and the other disciples gave their lives for their beliefs! They knew what they witnessed and knew that it was the truth. If they had been making the whole thing up, or exaggerating the truth about Jesus rising from the dead or something, they would never have died for their beliefs! Third the New Testament has not only survived in more manuscripts than any other book of antiquity, but it has survived in a purer form than any other great book a form that is 99.5 percent pure (The Case for Christ, 65). For further information on this, I highly recommend The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel. It also talks about how there were many instances during Jesus ministry where there were crowds of people as witnesses, and also how other secular historians from the first century also recorded some of the events that are found in the New Testament.
Next lets look at the Old Testament. A surprising piece of evidence is the fact the no discovery has ever disproved a biblical reference. Now I know youre thinking what about evolution and things like that, but thats a whole different story considering that evolution is just a theory, and also that it is possible to both believe in the Bible and in evolution; its just a matter of interpretation. But what Im really getting at are things like how the Bible talks about the Hittite people, and until about 20 years ago there was no evidence of these people, but since then archaeologists found the Hittite civilization. Also the Bible says that the walls of Jericho fell out, when walls in the Old Testament times normally fell inwards. However when an archaeological dig was conducted in the city of Jericho, they found that the walls fell out. Also, the genealogical records that the Bible provides are historically accurate. Also, biblical events such as the Flood, have been corroborated by finds such as : marine fossils atop every mountain range in the world, including giant (650 pound) oysters at the top of the Andes Mountains; also other cultures ancient stories and traditions talk about a great flood. To learn more, visit h t t p : / / w w w . christian - - science . c o m / (except take out all of the spaces I put in; apparently Im not allowed to post a link until I have 15 posts or something). By the way, I dont personally agree with the segments on the link about dinosaurs and evolution, but I think the other articles are very good.
Is God real?
Im assuming you want hard facts about this subject, and not spiritual answers, because although those are very powerful, you personally cannot evaluate their truth, but have to rely on someone elses judgment. So Ill give you the best physical arguments I have for this case. First where did the earth come from? Lets say humans evolved from primates, which evolved from reptiles, which evolved from marine life, which evolved from multi-cellular organisms, which evolved from single-celled organisms, which evolved from amoebas, which evolved from protein chains, which evolved from the abundance of elements produced by the big bang, which came from oh crud where does that come from?. Now matter how you retrace history, eventually you get to a point where everything came from nothing. Now this doesnt really jive with the first law of thermodynamics which says that energy and mass are always conserved in given system, in other words, energy and mass cannot spontaneously appear or disappear, only converted to one form or another. I would take this one step further to say that energy and mass cannot create or destroy themselves. Based on this fundamental principle of physics, how could all of the energy and mass in the universe spontaneously create itself? It is impossible. Even the most renowned physicist of our age, Stephen Hawking, said that the fact that the universe had a beginning implies a Creator. Now on to less scientifically-oriented proof .youve probably already heard the intelligent design argument, but in case you havent Ill tell it to you. It asks: if you were walking in a forest and found a watch on the ground, wouldnt you assume that the watch was made by someone, and didnt just naturally coalesce? Why, then, would you look at the tree next to the watch and assume the exact opposite? The intelligent design of a watch implies a watchmaker, so likewise, the intelligent design of creation implies a creator. Just look how intricate everything in nature is. From the leaf of a tree to a human brain, everything in nature is of intelligent design and implies an intelligent creator. Besides these intellectually logical proofs of Gods existence, there are thousands of spiritual proofs of Gods existence. I cannot tell you how many prayers of mine have been answered, down to the very last details. But no matter how many scientific proofs you hear or how many miracles you witness, there is a moment in you where you just know, not in your mind, but in your spirit, in your whole being, that there is a God. Its not a moment where fireworks go off or where a booming voice talks to you, but just a period of understanding that happens once you trust in God. At least that is what it has been for me. Oh yeah, on to the third question.
Is Jesus who the Bible says he is?
This question relies heavily on the accuracy and validity of the New Testament itself. I already talked about this in the response to the first question. Let me just add some arguments for the truth of his crucifixion and resurrection, because frankly, no matter how perfect Jesus was during his life, if he didnt raise from dead to conquer death, there would be no point in believing in him. First we need to make sure he died, and then we need to make sure he rose from the dead. One theory is that Jesus never really died on the cross, but merely fainted, and then later regained consciousness. This really can hardly be called a theory because it completely lacks credibility. Before he even got to the cross, Jesus was tortured by flogging, which would have caused him to lose such large amounts of blood that many people would have died just from this. Then when he got to the cross he would have died from asphyxiation (cannot breathe) since the hanging position on the cross inhibits exhaling. Furthermore, a Roman soldier stabbed a spear into his right side to see if blood and water came out, which was the sign of death, and it did. There is no way someone could survive all of these things. Jesus was definitely dead when he was buried in the tomb, and if he wasnt, how could he recover enough to push away the boulder in front of the tomb that would take several men to push away? It is simply impossible by human standards. Yet three days later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene (John 20:10-18), other women (Matthew 28:8-10), Cleopas and another disciple (Luke 24:13-32), eleven disciples and others (Luke 24:33-49), to ten apostles and others (John 20:19-23), to Thomas and the other apostles (John 20:26-30), to seven apostles (John 21:1-13), to the disciples (Matthew 28:16-20), and to 500 people (1 Corinthians 15). Now you might say well how do I know these people really saw him? and the answer is you dont. But you have to consider that most of the disciples spent the rest of their lives proclaiming that Jesus died on the cross, and rose from the dead. In return for this they were ridiculed, beaten, imprisoned, and most were executed. Why would they die for this if they knew it wasnt true? If they knew deep down that they never saw Jesus resurrected, they would never give their lives up for a lie. That is, for me, the most significant evidence.
Well I hope I have presented some reasonable arguments for you to ponder over. I really recommend reading The Case for Christ, because it goes through every possible theory or flaw in Jesus story and you will be surprised by how solid the case really is. If you have any questions for me, feel free to ask. Keep seeking the truth.
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TheMainException
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My dearest brother...today my heart yearns for everyone to know the truth and most of all, the love that I have felt from my dear abba, daddy, the Lord Jesus Christ. When it comes to the Bible...sometimes the hardest thing to grasp is that there is a relationship involved and God says "I'm just wild about you." But the place I have found to get solid truth is from Josh McDowell...he has been quite knowledgable on these issues, he once being an atheist trying to prove the Bible wrong and very false, simply a story book. What happened instead was that he became a Christian because he couldn't prove it wrong. Try him out....you could really find something that brings you to truth.
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crossrunner
Serving the Lord joyfully since 1981!
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Well said!! and welcome to the boards!
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BornAgainChristian
Saved in Christ, Witness to Christ
Holden11 said:
Hello.
Here's some hardcold truth that nobody can deny.What were called Dead0sea scrolls were found about 100 years ago. These scrolls, all scholars and most scientists say, were written long ago, when the Bible was being written. They have found these of Isiah and many other prophets. This proves that the Bible was written long ago.
Now, the Bible has made many prophecies. Many of them that scientists and scholars agree with. They are very hard and impossible to deny. There was the Nehamum (I think that was it) Chronicle. The Bible spoke of this man having a son, but the Chronicle "proved it wrong". That proves that the Bible is false.
BUT WAIT!!!! Scientists and scholars found the second part of this chronicle, and everything that the Bible said was written in the Chronicle, the Chronicle was written after the prophets spoke of this. Proof right there.
There was also Hezikaha's water tunnel. The Bible spoke of this before this place was found by scientists and scholars. They found this place, and this is also proof.
Also, on a Pharoh's tomb, it spoke of something that happened that the Bible spoke of. This writing was made after the Bible fortold it. Scholars and scientists found this place. Also proof.
One more, the Bible speaks of some wells that Isreal dug, and that Abraham dug, and many others. The Bible said that they remain this day. The Bible was written before today, way before. The wells remain today, just as the Bible told.
There you have it, proof. I have a book in which all of this is written, and more. PM me if you want me to quote everything that they said, I'll be glad to help.
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Hey Holden,
Firstly, Although u mighn't realise it at the moment, this interest you have in God is probably God induced!
Anyway, I think what I would do is Pray to God about it, tell him that you want to believe and find Christianity convincing. If you pray this, and keep praying for it, God will provide, he wants people to seek him. Bible says this (NKJ):
Matthew 7:7-8
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened
Firstly, Although u mighn't realise it at the moment, this interest you have in God is probably God induced!
Anyway, I think what I would do is Pray to God about it, tell him that you want to believe and find Christianity convincing. If you pray this, and keep praying for it, God will provide, he wants people to seek him. Bible says this (NKJ):
Matthew 7:7-8
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened
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