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Trying to accept Christ

Hawkins

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I know that Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

How do you know that. You don't go to the scene to verify. Instead you trust with faith about books or video made by humans. What you trust if human testimonies in the end. That's the process. And for the same reason, Japanese don't believe that Nanjing massacre ever happened, while Chinese believe that it did happen simply because they choose to trust different sources they deem credible.

Usually, there are 3 stumbling blocks preventing you to believe. It's Satan's deceptive work because they seem to be logical while they don't.

1) evidence
Through our secular education since childhood, we are told that we should believe evidence. We should believe only when evidence is presented to us.

This is the biggest lie ever. That's why among the 100% humans who know for a fact that black holes exist, 99% of them don't have the evidence. They trust (with faith) that our scientists (small group of human direct eye-witnesses) have the evidence though.

2) knowledge
Today's humans (may also be a result of our education) consider that everything lies within our knowledge. Whatever outside our knowledge is thus treated as "not believable". This is again a falsehood. During any time frame of humanity, humans will have to have something they don't know!

So how can humans start to gain knowledge about something humans never know before? It starts with first and direct encounters by small among of humans. Then humans start to collect evidence whether those claimed encounters (human testimonies) are valid. An example is the claim that Loch Ness Monster exists, or UFO exists. They all started with eye-witnesses claimed that they encountered and their claims were written down. That's the only thing humans can do in front of new knowledge, even under the circumstance that their encounters are a truth!

3. Types of truth
This goes hand in hand with evidence fallacy in 1).
Through our secular education, we gain the perception that everything is a science and thus can be evidenced as a science. That makes us keep asking for evidence when invited to believe with faith.

In reality, not every truth is a science. History as a kind of truth can hardly be evidenced. You can't simply provide evidence of what you yourself just did yesterday, or today but a year ago. We can reach the fact of what you did only when you or an eye-witness wrote it down for us to believe with faith. This is almost exclusively the way how we reach this kind of truth.
 
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Foxfyre

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God's blessings be upon you Ruien. I hear you loud and clear and let not your heart be troubled.

You must see something of value, something important, in the Christian life, in Christian values, in Christian love or you wouldn't be seeking.

But your questions are legitimate. Is all that due to good choices? Or is it something spiritual indicative of changed lives?

I believe with all my heart that God does not turn away any who seek them. I just counsel such seekers to do the following:

First pray to God a little prayer something along the line of: "Lord I want to know you and hear you. Help my unbelief. Let me know you are there."

And then put it in his hands without any preconceived notions of what the experience will be, when it should happen however long it might take, what form it must be. God is God after all and it is not given to us to tell him what to do or how he must do it.

Though it isn't necessarily necessary, continue to be with Christians that demonstrate Christian values, perhaps go to church, join a good Bible study group. It will help. Do not look for counsel from those who preach Christianity but do not live it in their attitudes and ethics.

I have never seen it fail that those who go through the motions one day realize that it has also become emotion and from there moves to devotion. At that point you no longer wonder if there is a God. You know.
 
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food4thought

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Hi Ruien;

What are your major obstacles to faith?
 
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Ruien

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I understand your point and I see the value in what you're saying: Just do it. At the risk of intellectualising again, I have to say that the "do" here is something profound and enigmatic. Because I don't know how to just do it--to "follow Jesus," as you put it--I'm trying to learn how. I am reading more, trying to pray, and will soon begin attending Church services. (I'm also enjoying intellectualising with others here on CF.)
 
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Ruien

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Thank you for this very encouraging and useful post. I really do appreciate this advice. "talk to God like He is real - and really there" --This is a wonderful statement!
 
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Ruien

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I have never seen it fail that those who go through the motions one day realize that it has also become emotion and from there moves to devotion.
I hope that is the case. One thing I am gathering from commenters here on CF is that I should have confidence in my ability to seek God and to build a relationship with Jesus. I know I am hesitant and unsure if anything I'm doing is "working," and that's leading to a lot of false starts on my spiritual quest. Perhaps this is a case of If you think you can, you can.
 
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Dirk1540

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i was given really good advice when i was first seeking God and wanting to know if He was real:
"talk to God like He is real - and really there"

it may seem kinda strange at first - but keep doing it -

I actually had something similar, but instead of it being advice it was presented as a challenge to me. You gotta understand that 'God and Jesus' were nothing more than arguments to me for a very long time. And I would use an even stronger phrase than 'It may seem kinda strange', I would have called it nothing but faith based nonsense! But strange or senseless as it seemed I took on the challenge and there was surprisingly substance to it. Up to that point in my life I was a very 'Self stressed' over thinking person, I was my own stress enemy, I thought way too much. So I was no stranger to 'Mind over matter' head games to try to reach a state of calming myself down. I've tried to think myself into happiness using a ton of psychological tricks. I've done visualizing exercises where I watch the stress leave my mind through a door in my head, I've focused on super happy places, etc.

I did not pull punches with any of these mental challenges and I wasn't about to pull punches and 'Act' like I gave into Jesus, I went all-in. The very distinct and very extraordinary, and often times very FAST reaction that came about was surreal. It had a unique flavor to it that no 'Head game' under the sun could even come close to matching, it worked head & shoulders better than anything else. There was something extra to it for sure. Was I a Christian from that day forward...NOPE. I truly might be one of the most hard headed and long running conversion stories ever.

I found reasons to do away with that 'Nonsense' and get back to partying, and get away from the 'Straight jacket' of Christianity. Now during this whole time I had known a guy who went to Bible college, he was in quite a miserable time in his life himself, he had a really straight arrow Christian wife, but he (and me) were drinking a lot. Looking back you can tell his lifestyle bothered him, he did turn himself around though (he lost a kid). Anyway, so we used to drink and argue the Bible a lot. I thought he did make some decent points on how it might be true, but I had way more objections to it not being true than I had had reasons to believe it was true. I really did enjoy the debate though. I'll also mention this...I also had some atheists since my 'Jesus Mind Games' telling me that there was literally a 'Faith Region' in the human brain that could register such a 'Religious Reaction.' Atheists could really amaze you with some of their logic, however I probably wanted it to be true at the time, I don't quite remember, but the argument was presented to me.

Anyway, I already said I was an over thinker. Well I had been doing a certain drug that made me feel great sometimes, but other times I would have a very bad and scary high that sent me into a panic mode that I wouldn't know how to explain. Yes I stressed a lot, but I was never a manic person, or bipolar, or anything such as having any kind of medical diagnosis. I just stressed a lot. When I had a bad high I actually tasted a sample size of how a person might have a nervous breakdown. In my circle of friends I was actually known as the person who had the worst bad highs ever! But, as young and stupid as I was, the move wasn't to quit doing the drug, the move was to 'Mature' passed my paranoia lol. To become better with drugs lol. Alas, one of the scariest days of my life happened, it was the next day, I knew that the drug had worn off for many hours, and I STILL had the panic mode in me! Up until that point the one thing I could always count on was that I knew my bad highs expired when the drug wore off. Well this was scary uncharted waters for me, the drug had worn off, but the panic mode still remained. Well, THAT was it, I was DONE! The scary panic mode actually followed me into my sober life, that realization freaked me out so much.

Fast forward to not that long after, I was drunk and found myself in a situation where the drug was presented to me but this time it was in a more concentrated form, a more potent option than I had ever had. I actually was hesitant but gave in. I ruined people's night afterwards, I was a 'Buzz Kill.' I was literally shaking as if it was 10 degrees in the house. Someone drove me home. My bedroom was on the 3rd floor at the time so I was separated from my family. I paced the hallway all night long. Sleep was not even close to an option. It was now literally passed noon. Here I go again, I know that the drug effect was over, yet I am NOW (after the high wore off), in the worst panic state of my life, much worse than the prior time, WAY worse. It was very simple I was inches away from having a nervous breakdown.

During the course of the entire night I tried talking myself down in a thousand ways...prayer did not cross my mind, not only was it only a 'Maybe True at best' for me, but it had been thrown in the backseat for awhile now. I was the biggest Michael Jordan fan in the world and there was a live playoff game going on, and there was a TV in my room (NBA playoff game, that's how much time had passed since the night before, usually my high is gone after a few hours). The game, which would normal make me extremely happy, had absolutely zero effect, the TV may as well have been turned off. I started thinking about running to my local hospital, wondering if they could put me under, if I did not somehow fall asleep I did not stand a chance. At this moment (pacing the hallway the entire time), I said to myself "Hmm, how about the Jesus thing?" I hopped on the bed and Prayed (I will point out that I prayed to, and said 'JESUS' in this prayer several times).

I almost don't know how to find the words to explain this next part, in LESS THAN 30 SECONDS from the beginning of the prayer I had switched into my current state of being moments away from a nervous breakdown into the most peaceful state I've ever been in in my life! I felt like a kid who had a crush on a girl for years and just found out that she liked him too. I had a pins & needles 'Floating on air' feeling all throughout my chest and it felt like it was spilling into my limbs. Just imagine the greatest innocent natural high of your life, that was the state I was in...30 seconds earlier I was about to have a nervous breakdown. I remained in the bed for hours, I just laid there basking in the feeling, and occasionally saying to myself "How on Earth is this possible??? It has to be real!!!"

That game I referred to in the beginning, it was that feeling, but it was that feeling on a level 100 times more powerful...and never again did I ever experience anything even remotely that powerful again. That was 20 years ago. That is what makes me say to people sometimes that I literally witnessed a miracle in my life (so if anyone, I am without excuse). Some people might argue that only a chair moving across a room by itself or something like that is a miracle, well that was a miracle in my book!

So, was I a Christian from that day forward? Nope lol. I told you how hard headed I am. However, after that day, even in the height of me wanting nothing to do with the Bible I was never able to ignore what had happened that day. Not only that I am absolutely sold (after years) on historical Jesus confirming the Biblical Jesus. Even when I wanted nothing to do with the Bible you might figure that I would side with skeptics when I found myself in the middle of a historical Jesus argument, right? I couldn't do it, I always recognized what the skeptic was not taking into account. I would say that 99% of people never get a miracle, or reach an intellectual tipping point (most convert for other reasons). Let alone both, I got both. It baffles me how much revelation God has given to me!! I think it's because God knows how drastic of a natural skeptic I am, so he laid it on thick for me. Just my opinion.

I just wanted to point a couple things out. #1 praying to Jesus was me grasping at straws. My prayer to Jesus was probably my 100th idea that I had that day to calm myself down. #2 i did not really believe Christianity, my belief was a maybe at best. In fact that moment itself had become one of my best pieces of evidence that Jesus was real...actually it was THE best piece of evidence. So that a psychologist could never make any kind of 'Mind Over Matter' argument to me about that day.
 
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Foxfyre

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Just relax and keep an open mind. God usually does most of the heavy lifting.
 
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Ruien

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Hi again David,

Thank you for your kind reply. I tried direct message you but I think the obstacle there is that I don't yet have enough recommendations or whatever in CF to have the permission to do so. I'm not sure. Some sort of technical glitch there.

Anyhow, I have a guess about the elephant in the room, and looking back I'm both surprised and unsurprised that in my ~700 word answer to the question of why I want to "cultivate a Christian life" (as I put it), I did not once mention Jesus. How ridiculous! Looking back, I am at first astonished that I omitted this. But actually I know.

As I mentioned, in my profile I identified myself as a "seeker" rather than a "Christian seeker." This, a forum devoted to discussion about people's most profound thoughts, is not the place to deceive others or oneself, and "seeker" is more truthful. This is because to me the concept of God is beautiful, transcendent, glorious, and also really comforting and encouraging; whereas the concept of Jesus as the son of God / part of the holy Trinity, etc., is, in a word, incredible. But not like awesome. More like, preposterous.

I hesitate to state this so bluntly. But again, this is not the place to lie, and also, I believe I am not hostile to the idea of Jesus as divine. (And I know I once was.) I know there is so much I don't know. I just have no idea how to square what I do know with the concept of Jesus as divine.

So here I go again, stating that I'm trying to learn. But I'm not sure if I'm doing it the right way. How can one learn uncritically? Should one learn uncritically? When I read or hear Christian expositions and my mind reflexively goes "Oh come on, give me a break...." should I reject my criticism? Should I embrace it and tease it out and enumerate the precise ways in which I find the particular exposition absurd?

I did indeed overlook the elephant in the room. Why would I say I want to cultivate a Christian life if I don't soon expect to (or do not know how to) accept Jesus? And yet the reasons I listed in my previous statement are very real to me. Maybe they are insufficient.

I appreciate your replies to me so far. I would absolutely be happy to follow this line of reasoning. Talking this out is truly helpful.

Thank you.
 
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Ruien

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Thank you for this interesting account. I'm continually appreciative of this kind of community where we can share our most profound spiritual experiences with each other in an honest and supportive forum.

All of our biographies have nearly endless backstory, to be sure, but I would like to ask about these comments:

I gave into Jesus, I went all-in. The very distinct and very extraordinary, and often times very FAST reaction that came about was surreal.

How did you go all in? Was it a decision? What did the decision process entail? What is an act of will? How long did it last and did it need regular affirmations to be sustained? (Asking because I just don't know how one does it, or what exactly it means to go all-in.)

I hopped on the bed and Prayed (I will point out that I prayed to, and said 'JESUS' in this prayer several times). I almost don't know how to find the words to explain this next part, in LESS THAN 30 SECONDS from the beginning of the prayer I had switched into my current state of being moments away from a nervous breakdown into the most peaceful state I've ever been in in my life!

I do not doubt you for a second. I believe you, absolutely I do. So, I wonder, do you think this experience was singular and momentous in your religious life? Would you expect that everyone or most people who sincerely have a relationship with Christ experience something like this? If so, is your experience indicative of a method of bringing about this experience; in other words, is it recommended that a person say "Jesus" in a prayer several times, or what should one do to try to foster this experience?
 
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Dirk1540

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I gave into Jesus, I went all-in. The very distinct and very extraordinary, and often times very FAST reaction that came about was surreal.

How did you go all in? Was it a decision? What did the decision process entail? What is an act of will?

First of all, I'm not going to pretend and make definitive statements about how things happen. All I can give is my situation. Second, it is very unfortunate that my story can only really be 'Proof' for myself, I do realize you must take it with a grain of salt because it is a second hand account. By all-in I just meant that I tore my wall of doubt completely down and fully prayed to Jesus and genuinely believed that he was real. I had hesitant, semi-doubting prayers before that, but when I talk about 'The Challenge' of going all-in it meant I prayed with zero doubt and I prayed intensely, it was 100%, it wasn't an act for the sake of the game...so ironically the game was to NOT treat it like a game lol, if that makes sense. I was also reading the gospels during the same time frame and that does seem to bring him to life inside of me a bit, it causes a bit of a stir inside of me (at least in my case). BUT, that one night I described 20 years ago, that night was a hesitant half belief type of prayer. However, before that night I already prayed Jesus into my life 4 years earlier. As far as my experience went, it was like I changed everything after I brought Jesus into my life. So maybe my prayer didn't need to be all-in that one night since I already prayed him into my life 4 years earlier?? Honestly my guess is as good as yours, but this is how it all happened for me.

How long did it last and did it need regular affirmations to be sustained?
Yes. But again my personal situation, the reason it needed regular affirmations was because I was fairly quick to go back into basking in my sins. However I have been told by more faithful Christians than myself that they also need regular affirmations to have those Jesus highs. Maybe some people in here can comment on their personal situation. To tell you the truth, I have heard 100 Christians tell me that they feel the presence of Jesus inside of them, yet I never even thought to press them for more clarification. Hmm, maybe some in here can elaborate??

Again, I can only confirm my personal situation. As for my personal situation I was a very stressed out person. I'm not a huge fan of medical terms unless the condition is significant (it almost seems like 50% of kids today have 'ADD'), but I suppose a doctor would have diagnosed me as medical depression. The Jesus highs were escapes out of my depression. You know how a person will say to another person "Why are you so down in the dumps?" and the person says "I don't know." Or a person will ask "Why are you in such a good mood?" And the person will answer "No clue I just am!" Well it was like that, these prayers to Jesus had an ability to pull me out of 'Down in the dumps' and into 'Good mood but don't know why' in record time, by that I mean it could be virtually instantly at times. All my other psychological tricks to to reach the same result didn't work, or they worked over a long period of time, usually a day or a couple days. The sensation/feeling was also distinct in the case of Jesus.

do you think this experience was singular and momentous in your religious life?
It was absolutely singular. Nothing even approaches it in my life. Like I said I dumped the Bible many times, and I had a very serious problem with intellectual objections to anything that violates the normal laws of nature. But that day was anything but normal. It sort of created a floor for me. No matter how bad my skepticism grew there was this floor of doubt that I could no longer sink lower than anymore because I always had the thought in the back of my mind 'What about that day on the 3rd floor!!??' My skepticism was never able to grow beyond a certain point after that because it is literally impossible for me to forget that day. So in that sense yes it changed my religious life. I guess in the sense that I was no longer able to completely drift away anymore. I guess the miracle was comparable to a 100 foot rope tied to a docked boat. I left Christianity many times, I floated away, but knowing what happened on that 3rd floor always kept me from drifting over 100 feet away. If that makes any sense.

(EDIT...sorry, your question was about the experiment, and I answered in reference to that one night 20 years ago, sorry I answered incorrectly).

Would you expect that everyone or most people who sincerely have a relationship with Christ experience something like this?
Which one? The frequent Jesus highs that I have had, or the miracle day I had 20 years ago? I do not think most people will have the type of miracle I had 20 years ago, and I feel pretty ungrateful at times that I was blessed with such an experience, only to drift away so many times. I was in a very precarious situation that day, one would have to be as close as I was to mental rock bottom in order to even be in a position to experience what I experienced!!

If so, is your experience indicative of a method of bringing about this experience; in other words, is it recommended that a person say "Jesus" in a prayer several times, or what should one do to try to foster this experience?

The reason that I felt the need to point out that I specifically said 'Jesus' several times in that prayer is because I have thought about that day 1,000 times, and it is a flat out detail of the story. Some might argue that ONLY praying to Jesus would have resulted in such a result. Would I have gotten the same result saying "GOD" instead? I have no clue! I just want to detail accurately what happened in my case, I intensely said 'Jesus' a few times. Honestly, I think that my knowledge base is a joke, and I'm very disappointed in myself that I don't know way more than I do. I have so many awesome books that I haven't read yet. I'm financially blessed for me to EASILY have the library that I have. Instead of basking in it more I spend way too much time watching TV...and I only dabble in the books. In other words I have no clue how to interpret what happened to me but I only care to tell it accurately. Since I've thought about that day 1,000 times I thought of an analogy...

It's as if I have 10 extension cords plugged into my chest, all 10 of them go to a certain psychological location. Nine extension cords plug into 9 different psychological thought processes, designed to make me feel good (keep in mind I had 'Depression'). The 10th extension cord goes towards this concept of 'Jesus.' Whenever I meditate on any of the 10 ideas I turn the switch to that extension cord to the ON position. The Jesus extension cord was the only thought process that created an instant 'Voltage' to the cord, that's what I meant by surreal, I was almost blown away that it worked so convincingly. Does this make any sense at all or do I sound crazy lol?? Anyway, that night 20 years ago...that night it was as if the extension cord got hit with 10,000 volts!!!!! That's how intense it was! But every other time it was about 50 volts. And the other 9 extension cords maybe supplied a volt or 2 that took a prolonged amount of time to have any effect. I wish I was better at explaining things lol.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Fortunately it's not about us accepting Christ, it's about Christ accepting us. And the fact that we are accepted in Christ is made evident in His life, death, and resurrection. The Incarnation, the crucifixion, the resurrection of Jesus is about God's forgiveness and acceptance of a fallen, sinful human world.

There's no "trick" to having faith, because faith isn't something we can create in ourselves--it happens by God's grace working through the preaching of the Gospel. The fact that you're here, posting this at all, tells me that you are much further along than you realize. Someone without faith wouldn't care that they didn't have faith, it is only with faith that one could desire it at all.

As such I would encourage you to grow in the faith you have already--and God has supplied us the means for this in His Church, that's why we gather together to receive God's Word and Sacraments, through which He works upon us, sustaining us, and building us up in Jesus by the power and strength of the Holy Spirit.

A church that preaches the Gospel and focuses on Jesus would be a wise place to be, and many traditional churches have programs where one can learn about our religion for people who are seeking or curious (traditionally known as catechesis).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Dirk1540

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Fortunately it's not about us accepting Christ, it's about Christ accepting us.
But it is about us accepting Christ! We HAVE TO do that to gain eternal life. I know what you're saying in that it's awesome that Christ will accept us, BUT we must accept Christ to win eternal life.
 
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Ruien

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it is only with faith that one could desire it at all.
Wow that is the single best thing I have heard or thought today. That's a much more useful perspective than my usual thoughts of "What am I doing wrong? Why can't I believe even though I'm pretty sure I want to?" Thank you for making my day more hopeful!
 
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ViaCrucis

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But it is about us accepting Christ! We HAVE TO do that to gain eternal life. I know what you're saying in that it's awesome that Christ will accept us, BUT we must accept Christ to win eternal life.

In the Lutheran perspective our "acceptance" of Christ is nothing more than the reality of faith placed into us by the Holy Spirit as an act of grace--thus it isn't us doing anything, but God doing everything. Lutherans are monergists, that means we believe salvation is God's work alone, and we contribute nothing. Faith comes from outside of ourselves as a gift (Ephesians 2:8) created in us by the word of God (Romans 10:17), and we are justified by God's grace alone on Christ's account alone. It's not about us accepting Him, it's about Him accepting us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Dirk1540

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Oh ok I know where you're going with this. This grace vs free will brain teaser is something that many years ago I yielded to as simply being one in the same, yet it just being a concept that I will never be able to wrap my head around. My favorite example is always time & space relativity, how it is literal fact that 2 people placed in 2 separate locations in the universe will drastically age at different rates...that absolutely makes my head wanna explode, YET I know that in our modern age it's now a scientific fact!!

Likewise, I know that God can tell the future, God can bend time in this & that direction, freeze time, etc. I find it fascinating that the theory of relativity made so many hard to grasp Biblical God (time & space) concepts easier to swallow...even though I still can't understand it, I at least in 2017 can actually say 'Wow there's a factual scientific foundation to such crazy notions!' I imagine God as being able to literally scroll back & forth in time as if our lives were books sitting in front of him. That he can literally know the last chapter of our lives before we're even born, therefore us 'Choosing' God, before we were even born, is known to him. And it is equivalent to God saying that he 'Gave us' the gift of grace before we were even born. That's how I look at it at least.
 
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Hi Ruien, that's definitely part of it. Instead of "why do you want to become a Christian", let me try a different question instead, "what do you do with your guilt"?

Thanks!

In Christ,
David
 
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