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Truth on the doctrine of Hell, the just reality of absolute eternal torment (updated verses)

Presbyterian Continuist

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Well, since you say that, I assume you are at least missing a hand, a foot or an eye. It seems to be only when it is convenient, that things are literal. It's also funny that none of the literalists can explain what this verse means.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God
.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.



Question: How is the hidden wisdom hidden, if it's literal? Wouldn't anyone be able to receive it, if it was literal?
The wisdom of the Gospel of Christ is hidden from those in the world. We don't have the spirit of the world. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who teaches us all truth.

Question: How could eye not seen or ear heard, if those things are plain for just anyone to read, which the would be, if they were literal?
God has revealed the hidden wisdom of the Gospel of Christ to us by the Holy Spirit. It is not just for anyone to read and understand. Only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit are able to understand the elements of the Gospel of Christ and how that makes us totally different than those who just have the spirit of this world. The ordinary natural person can read the Bible just as literature, but would have no understanding of what it actually means. The natural person is that person who is not born from above by the Spirit of God, and does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach him all things that pertain to the Gospel and how that works in our lives.

Question: What does comparing spiritual with spiritual mean? Why can't the natural man discern it?
The Bible is all about Jesus. The person in the world, the natural man is unable to perceive that. It is only the spiritual man who has been born from above (converted to Christ) and has the indwelling Spirit who can understand the spiritual truths contained in the Bible. He can read it only as a natural piece of literature. In fact, because he is natural and not spiritual, he has no real idea of what the bible is really about. The spiritual person has the Holy Spirit to teach him the spiritual truths contained in the Bible, therefore it is the Holy Spirit who gives him the discernment to understand spiritual things.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I tracked "hell" down to its source.

The KJV has many instances of "hell."

The 1611 KJV has the same, plus two instances of "hel."

Going back several centuries, the Anglo-Saxon epic "Beowulf" has "hell," "hel" and "helle."

Checking the OED, I found that "hell" entered the English language (such as it was at the time) in the early ninth century, a time when a lot of loan words were coming in from Norse. The OED also gave me this information:

Old English – hel

Old Frisian – helle, hille

Old Saxon – hellja, hella

Middle Dutch – helle

Old High German – helle

Old Norse – hel, heljar

Gothic – halja

With all the above in mind, and knowing that "Beowulf" was set in Denmark, I decided to look into Norse mythology...and it was not hard to find. What I found was the Norse goddess/ogress Hel, who the pagans believed to rule over her afterlife realm of Helheim, or "House of Hel." The pagans thought that if you did not rate going to Valhalla, you spent eternity in Helheim with Hel.

This is just another case of syncretism, of the mixing of paganism with the concepts of Biblical Christianity, something we see over and over again if we have eyes to see.
 
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Andrewn

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We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who teaches us all truth.
And the truth is that God created billions of people in order to torment the great majority of them forever.

But the Good News is that God will save a few people.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Some like to say that Hell is "separation from God" you hear this all the time now and people falsely describe this separation as the absolute worst torment of them all, but this is false and completely unbiblical.
What could be worse than being wrong and denied access to your Creator?
I would say eternal torment in fire would be better. Blessings.
 
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Cockcrow

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What could be worse than being wrong and denied access to your Creator?
I would say eternal torment in fire would be better. Blessings.
I think being on fire and being tormented for eternity is worse than "separation from God" and it isn't even separation because the Bible says they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. The lamb = Jesus, so no you won't be separated from God. God created Hell, Hell wasn't some invention by Satan, God created Hell and his wrath will be on the wicked, there is no separation.
 
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Cockcrow

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You do a great job of going through the scripture and if we go with the English translation it would be fitting ....but we can't. We have to go into the meaning(s) of the Greek and Hebrew in effort to get a greater understanding of he double hocky stick.


Through religion.... its deception and fear motivation we have adapted the meaning, which the Greeks have put upon this word (hell), making it synonymous in definition with “sheol”, “hades”, “gehenna”, “katakaio”, and “tartaros”… as being that of eternal torment. Those are the words used that have been translated into our one English word for hell; they are not the same.


The word “hades” from the Greek was used as a counterpart to the Hebrew word “sheol” and is more accurately defined as a state rather than a place.


Gravedom is a word coined by E W Bullinger, and is a great word for hell; it is the state, reign or time of being in the grave. I am not talking about the grave itself which employs the Greek word (qeber). I am speaking of the time when one takes his last breath, until the return of our savior Jesus Christ…..when he returns, first, for the Church of the Body, and later when He returns as King of Kings

We must disregard the meaning that is placed on the word hell today. The Bibles’ definition is; “the state of being when one dies,” it’s a continuing state until the resurrection.” That’s it ….it is that simple, and that defined in the Bible.


Sheol (Hebrew) Old Testament and Hades (Greek) New Testament are basically the two words, both meaning grave or gravedom.

Sheol is translated grave 31 times, hell 31 times, and pit 3 times.

Hades is translated hell 10, times and grave 1 time.


Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible (1962 vol. 1 p788) states

The English word hell has taken on the mythological Greek meaning associated with the pagan idea of an underworld where the dead continue to live on in torment.


The standard for truth in defining words has got to come from the Bible itself, not from the meaning (s) attached to it, which is where the confusion comes in.


Short version:
In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld and his name came to represent this fictitious place that we understand as Hell. The Septuagint was a second century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament, and in it the word Hades was chosen as the counterpart to the Hebrew “Sheol”.

As is done with “Sheol”, many English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word “Hades” as hell rather than grave.

(As E. W. Bullinger states “The Old Testament is the fountain-head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew word “Sheol” is divine in its origin and usage. The Greek “Hades” is human in its nature and come down laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meaning and usages.”


NOWHERE in the Old Testament is the abode of the dead regarded as a place of punishment or torment. The concept of an infernal “hell” developed in Israel only during the Hellenistic period.
As believers we must use the Words interpretation of itself, to define words within the Bible.

Clearly there is no justification to the eternal torment, which has been propounded throughout Christendom today. Whether we translate it or transliterate it, we must give it the meaning that God purposed; everything else outside the Word of God must be discarded.


John 3:16
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word “perish” Gr: (apollymi) means to utterly destroy; annihilate. That’s what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ and all those previous to the Grace administration who were evil and rejected God…..


It’s not eternal torment ….it is ➡ total consuming.

Gehenna” (geenna) A Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom” which was a city dump outside of Jerusalem.

When Christ would address this, He was illustrating that garbage thrown into the gehenna would be burned up. No one listening to Jesus would believe that that the garbage would continue to exist in the fire ….without being consumed. This is the place of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord spoken of in 2Th 1:9 ….It refers to the fire of judgment in which the wicked will one day be consumed. It is called “the lake of fire” in the book of Revelation where fire will bring the ultimate annihilation of the devil and his hosts.


The last two words translated hell are Katakaio and Tartarous.

“Katakaio” is used in Hebrews 13:11 regarding the sacrificial beasts that were burned outside the camp.
11.For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

This same word is used in Matthew 3:12
12.
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Neither Chaff nor beasts burn forever, they burn up and are gone …

“Tartarous” is used once and translated hell in II Peter 2:4 it refers to the place of imprisoned evil sprits ……not a place of torment for sinners.
4.For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

The KJV uses the word Hell for Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc. and I think this is the correct interpretation. Gehenna was a real place that is used by Jesus as a metaphor for Hell. as for the English translations authenticity which is blatantly attacked here, we know that the Bible is Gods preserved word, and that there are no errors or faults with the text, anyone speaking English can open up their Bible and read the word of God for themselves. and you don't need anyone to interpret it for you or "go to the greek and Hebrew" to understand the text. God is not the author of confusion.

There are two Hells described in the Bible, the first is located in the Heart of the Earth and that is where the unsaved will go at death, the second hell is the Lake of Fire which is where all those not found written in the book of life will be sent at the Great White Throne judgement."And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire" this is described as the second death. Nowhere in the Bible does death mean ceasing to exist.

the Bible makes it clear with enough passages about eternal torment, that we know that "ceasing to exist" is not accurate. Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30 all prove that everlasting punishment doesn't mean ceasing to exist. you can't weep or gnash teeth if you cease to exist. Nowhere in the Bible is death referred to as extinction. "The smoke of their torment ascending up forever" if you cease to exist the Smoke would stop once it finished its job. There is no rest day or night, no rest for the wicked.

as for the Old Testament, nothing written in the OT proves cease to exist, in fact it says the opposite Isaiah 66:22-24 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Daniel 12:1-2 says "and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Both the Old and New Testament say their worm shall not die, fire will not be quenched.

the Bible is clear that the punishment is eternal. ceasing to exist is not eternal punishment, it is a one time punishment and that's it, yet the Bible describes the punishment as never ending, there is no rest. did the Rich man cease to exist after death according to Jesus? no he was tormented! and it was immediately after death "and in hell he lifted up his eyes" you don't lift up your eyes if you're ceasing to exist. the words Perish, everlasting and destruction do not solely mean ceasing to exist, there is no biblical evidence that Lake of fire means ceasing to exist. Jesus didn't teach that, and you say "go to the greek and Hebrew" as if somehow the English Bible is invalid which is simply not true. attacks like this on the Bible happen all the time now which is unfortunate as an attempt to discredit Gods word.

Hell is not a religious invention or a religious scare tactic, it is a real place created by God, Jesus was clear on this. The truth is the truth whether we like it or not.

also for you to say that there is no justification for eternal torment is just not true, the Bible teaches the complete opposite.
 
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sandman

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The KJV uses the word Hell for Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc. and I think this is the correct interpretation. .

I was just trying to give you some insight on the the corrupting of the word hell. You are welcome to believe what you want.
If you are interested learning about this subject there is a book called
The Fire that Consumes by Edward Fudge
I purchased it a few years ago and loaned it out before I could read it but....I do not know what he concluded but I have heard the book is very informative. .............Actually just checking amazon i found a video from Fudge ...I have not watched it but it may be interesting.... this is the link

Fire that Consumes
 
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Blade

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We never knew so many that believe different can all be right huh :) Oh then its "not me its you that's wrong" praise God. Add to all this God you know a spirit that is not like man nor thinks like man. There is a place all the fallen angles will go to "hell" that was its already done made for them. There is no redemption for them that is only for man that listen to a lie and is blind so there is no sin. Same as Israel if Christ had not come and spoke they would have no sin..to late.

We seem to think we are much better higher then the angels that fell. That loving God gave them no 2nd changes see they walked with Him in all His glory power and knew HIm. So they knew what why they left. I can't say that for every angel.. we don't know. Now to think there is no MAN that knows GOD knows not guess not wonder no doubt knows Jesus Christ is the only way yet does NOT want Him. Like people on this forum that do not believe in Jesus..yet now they can't say anything they have no excuses after this. Same with this world.. at some point every one gets a choice.

This thing is so real that the one true GOD came to this earth became His creation to save it! So I believe most will be saved well Rev tell us about all those people from every tribe and nation no man could number. Make no mistake we get no say in this as in hell is real or no its not. Your personal truth my personal truth is not the word God. God will not be asking us about this. We are told to share Christ to the world to ever thing in creation period. Not here to offend if so forgive me
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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And the truth is that God created billions of people in order to torment the great majority of them forever.

But the Good News is that God will save a few people.
The invitation has gone out to all to accept God's plan of salvation through Christ. "God so loved the world (that, is everyone) that He sent His only Son that whosoever (no limits) believes on Him, will not perish but will have eternal life" (John 3:16). and, "Whoever comes to Me [Christ], I will in no wise (not for any reason) cast out". These two verses alone totally contradict the notion that God deliberately creates people to perish without any opportunity to avoid it.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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The people in the early church did it too.
The account said that some sold property and laid the proceeds at the Apostles' feet. That is descriptive historical narrative. Nothing in the record states that all Christians should do the same. There is nothing in Scripture that says that any Christian should sell everything, including their family home and then go begging on the streets, or depending on "love offerings" from others.
 
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Der Alte

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You do a great job of going through the scripture and if we go with the English translation it would be fitting ....but we can't. We have to go into the meaning(s) of the Greek and Hebrew in effort to get a greater understanding of he double hocky stick.
Through religion.... its deception and fear motivation we have adapted the meaning, which the Greeks have put upon this word (hell), making it synonymous in definition with “sheol”, “hades”, “gehenna”, “katakaio”, and “tartaros”… as being that of eternal torment. Those are the words used that have been translated into our one English word for hell; they are not the same.
The word “hades” from the Greek was used as a counterpart to the Hebrew word “sheol” and is more accurately defined as a state rather than a place.
Gravedom is a word coined by E W Bullinger, and is a great word for hell; it is the state, reign or time of being in the grave. I am not talking about the grave itself which employs the Greek word (qeber). I am speaking of the time when one takes his last breath, until the return of our savior Jesus Christ…..when he returns, first, for the Church of the Body, and later when He returns as King of Kings
We must disregard the meaning that is placed on the word hell today. The Bibles’ definition is; “the state of being when one dies,” it’s a continuing state until the resurrection.” That’s it ….it is that simple, and that defined in the Bible.
Sheol (Hebrew) Old Testament and Hades (Greek) New Testament are basically the two words, both meaning grave or gravedom.
Sheol is translated grave 31 times, hell 31 times, and pit 3 times.
Hades is translated hell 10, times and grave 1 time.

Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible (1962 vol. 1 p788) states
The English word hell has taken on the mythological Greek meaning associated with the pagan idea of an underworld where the dead continue to live on in torment.
The standard for truth in defining words has got to come from the Bible itself, not from the meaning (s) attached to it, which is where the confusion comes in.
Short version:
In Greek mythology Hades was the god of the underworld and his name came to represent this fictitious place that we understand as Hell. The Septuagint was a second century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament, and in it the word Hades was chosen as the counterpart to the Hebrew “Sheol”.
As is done with “Sheol”, many English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word “Hades” as hell rather than grave.
(As E. W. Bullinger states “The Old Testament is the fountain-head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew word “Sheol” is divine in its origin and usage. The Greek “Hades” is human in its nature and come down laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meaning and usages.”
NOWHERE in the Old Testament is the abode of the dead regarded as a place of punishment or torment. The concept of an infernal “hell” developed in Israel only during the Hellenistic period.
As believers we must use the Words interpretation of itself, to define words within the Bible.
Clearly there is no justification to the eternal torment, which has been propounded throughout Christendom today. Whether we translate it or transliterate it, we must give it the meaning that God purposed; everything else outside the Word of God must be discarded.
John 3:16
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The word “perish” Gr: (apollymi) means to utterly destroy; annihilate. That’s what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ and all those previous to the Grace administration who were evil and rejected God…..
It’s not eternal torment ….it is ➡ total consuming.
“Gehenna” (geenna) A Greek word for the Hebrew “valley of Hinnom” which was a city dump outside of Jerusalem.
When Christ would address this, He was illustrating that garbage thrown into the gehenna would be burned up. No one listening to Jesus would believe that that the garbage would continue to exist in the fire ….without being consumed. This is the place of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord spoken of in 2Th 1:9 ….It refers to the fire of judgment in which the wicked will one day be consumed. It is called “the lake of fire” in the book of Revelation where fire will bring the ultimate annihilation of the devil and his hosts.
The last two words translated hell are Katakaio and Tartarous.
“Katakaio” is used in Hebrews 13:11 regarding the sacrificial beasts that were burned outside the camp.
11.For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
This same word is used in Matthew 3:12
12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Neither Chaff nor beasts burn forever, they burn up and are gone …
“Tartarous” is used once and translated hell in II Peter 2:4 it refers to the place of imprisoned evil sprits ……not a place of torment for sinners.
4.For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
You have posted the usual internet misinformation about almost everything.
¢¢Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, [NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =

[Character limit continued next post.]
 
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RickReads

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The account said that some sold property and laid the proceeds at the Apostles' feet. That is descriptive historical narrative. Nothing in the record states that all Christians should do the same. There is nothing in Scripture that says that any Christian should sell everything, including their family home and then go begging on the streets, or depending on "love offerings" from others.

Brother, have you got a dime? I`m poor.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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[Previous post continued]

[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16
You said "Neither Chaff nor beasts burn forever, they burn up and are gone." Have you never read about a bush in Exodus that "burned but was not consumed?" Or the story about the three Hebrew slaves, in Daniel, that were thrown into a furnace that was heated seven times hotter than before but they were not burned up, not even the smell of smoke on them? If God wants something to burn but not be consumed He can and has made that happen.
 
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Der Alte

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@sandman
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
…..Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)


http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/


Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount
on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage

The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com
 
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martymonster

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The wisdom of the Gospel of Christ is hidden from those in the world. We don't have the spirit of the world. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit, who teaches us all truth.


God has revealed the hidden wisdom of the Gospel of Christ to us by the Holy Spirit. It is not just for anyone to read and understand. Only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit are able to understand the elements of the Gospel of Christ and how that makes us totally different than those who just have the spirit of this world. The ordinary natural person can read the Bible just as literature, but would have no understanding of what it actually means. The natural person is that person who is not born from above by the Spirit of God, and does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach him all things that pertain to the Gospel and how that works in our lives.


The Bible is all about Jesus. The person in the world, the natural man is unable to perceive that. It is only the spiritual man who has been born from above (converted to Christ) and has the indwelling Spirit who can understand the spiritual truths contained in the Bible. He can read it only as a natural piece of literature. In fact, because he is natural and not spiritual, he has no real idea of what the bible is really about. The spiritual person has the Holy Spirit to teach him the spiritual truths contained in the Bible, therefore it is the Holy Spirit who gives him the discernment to understand spiritual things.


So, are you telling me, that an atheist can't pick up the bible and understand all the same stuff that you do?
Also, that verse has got nothing to do with non-believers, non-Christians and Jews, are not in view here.

1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

How do you get non-believers, as being the princes of this world?
Non-believers are not heirs to the kingdom. See, this is exactly why you don't take scripture at face value. It was the multitude that followed Christ, and their leaders, that wanted him dead.
 
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RickReads

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So, are you telling me, that an atheist can't pick up the bible and understand all the same stuff that you do?
Also, that verse has got nothing to do with non-believers, non-Christians and Jews, are not in view here.

1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

How do you get non-believers, as being the princes of this world?
Non-believers are not heirs to the kingdom. See, this is exactly why you don't take scripture at face value. It was the multitude that followed Christ, and their leaders, that wanted him dead.

Alas Marty alas.......the princes of this world are the fallen angels.

Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
 
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martymonster

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Alas Marty alas.......the princes of this world are the fallen angels.

Luke 22:53
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.


Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.



Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Christians are heirs to the kingdom, not Angels... and not all of them will be kings, on those who the Father has chosen, from before the foundation of the world.
That whole fallen angel thing, is just a fairy tale. It doesn't even make any sense!
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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So, are you telling me, that an atheist can't pick up the bible and understand all the same stuff that you do?
Also, that verse has got nothing to do with non-believers, non-Christians and Jews, are not in view here.

1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

How do you get non-believers, as being the princes of this world?
Non-believers are not heirs to the kingdom. See, this is exactly why you don't take scripture at face value. It was the multitude that followed Christ, and their leaders, that wanted him dead.
Yes. I am saying exactly that. An atheist can read the Bible and appreciate it as literature, and know nothing about what the Cross of Christ really means and how being born from above does change a person. An atheist would not be able to see all the types and shadows in the Old Testament that point to Christ.

I don't know you can can get heirs of the kingdom from
"the princes of this world". Believers in Christ did not crucify Jesus. It was the heretical Pharisees who engineered it.

For information, the Pharisees had absolutely nothing in common with Abraham, Jacob, Moses or any of the O.T. saints who lived by the Torah. In fact, they set the Torah aside, and came up with their own version with all their inflated and stupid rules which they hoodwinked people into thinking it was the Mosaic Law. The Pharisees were formed during the intertestimentary period and were a totally heretical sect. Jesus saw right through them and He was very clear that they had nothing in common with Abraham at all, even though they claimed to be descendants of Abraham. Jesus told them that their father was not Abraham, but the devil.

Paul includes every godless authority in his "princes of the world" comment. To suggest that these were believers gone wackydoodle shows me that you might need to attend a good Bible college and get some sound Bible training.
 
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wendykvw

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Yes, I just love how Christians like to assert that scripture is literal, until it comes hacking off a foot, a hand, or gouging out an eye.
My motive is not to demean anyone, just saying it took me a while to learn that we should not take everything in the Bible so literally. I think Paul may have summed it up when he said we need to get to solid food rather than remain on spiritual milk.
 
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martymonster

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My motive is not to demean anyone, just saying it took me a while to learn that we should not take everything in the Bible so literally. I think Paul may have summed it up when he said we need to get to solid food rather than remain on spiritual milk.

Only to those who it is given. Also, there's a difference between poison milk, and the sincere milk of the word.
 
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