Trusting Mohammed

[Amoz]

they follow a book from Mohammed that changed all accounts of past prophets of the OT from flawed sinners to near-perfect messengers of God.

Why is that a bad thing?

also, don't give me this crap about treating all prophets the same. there a numerous TV shows, comics, political cartoons, etc that show pictures of Christ, and this has been going on for the past 30 years.

the moment someone posts a comic of Mohammed, Muslims commit global acts of terror. quit fooling youself and taking us for fools along with you. you hold Mohammed higher than Jesus, and you lie to cover that up and claim all prophets are viewed equally.

Muslims are not the religious police of the world, we are only responsible for our own religion. It is not within our power or even our right to tell Christians to respect their Prophets. We don't approve of it but we do not have the right to come to the defense of your religion while you are not doing anything about it.

We hold all prophets to the same degree of respect, and the Quran teaches us so without a doubt

[2:136] Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

[2:285]The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) the believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers We make no distinction between any of His messengers and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

was there rioting when the movie Ten Commandments came out??? Nope, and that was about Moses. But if they made a movie about Mohammed, I can promise you many people would end up dying because of islamoterrorism.

You are being unfair by characterizing the Muslim reactions to those cartoons as islamoterrorism. Muslims did not go out to protest by killing non-Muslims. Muslims reacted differently all around the world, some protested violently (made the biggest news), some protested peacefully, but the biggest protest of all, which tens of Millions of people participated in was refraining from buying Danish goods. Throughout the Muslim world, Muslims protested by not byuing Danish products. Was that islamoterrorism?

The least people could do is be fair.

You put Mohammed and the Quran on a pedistal, and they are your gods. You worship the trinity of Allah, Mohammed, and the Quran, all labeled under the godhead of Islam.

We worship God according to the word of God as taught by the prophet of God.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by NASAg03
You put Mohammed and the Quran on a pedistal, and they are your gods. You worship the trinity of Allah, Mohammed, and the Quran, all labeled under the godhead of Islam.

We worship God according to the word of God as taught by the prophet of God.

Peace

Sorry, muslims don't believe Jesus is God, or son of God. For us, he was A MESSENGER, pure and simple. We can't admit that God be crucified. It's just beyond the bounds of reason.

But we believe he wouldn't err as he was a Messenger.

Umm, what word did Jesus preach then? Isn't He the one spoken of in Malachi as the "Lord"?

(Young) Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple [#01964] Doth the Lord [0113 'adown] whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of the covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, said Y@hovah [#03068] of Hosts.

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

Revelation 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

 

[kynzaro]

to Peaceful soul:

Criticizing someone is not the same as disrespecting them. Get it in your head!

Basically, you are saying that I should not state that Mohammad had faults on a forum because it is disrespectful to do this in public? How can I then make the statement and have someone respond to it?


you can criticize Mohammed peace be upon him. No problem. If that makes you feel good.

I don’t not care about glorification, rather the fact that they don’t consider and address the alternate, which is to equally address the negatives and shortcomings of their religion and prophet without the overly used one-sided apologetics. That has been my theme throughout.

Muslims don't believe in what you believe are "negatives and shortcomings" of Islam. As much as when you believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is God, while muslims believe he was a Messenger and is by no means God.

You are totally disconnected from what I am saying. Can you understand that I am seeing through their one-sided disclosures of their religion and prophet? A prime example is what has been posted by a Muslim after you and I engaged. Every account of Mohammad’s shortcomings will be either explained to justify his actions; as a falsified account; as out of context; or as a relative issue to others who also have performed said actions which then minimizes or trivializes his wrongs (relativism). It almost never fails. It is hard to believe that everything can fit into these three categories while not being subject for scrutiny. If I told you that everything I did was good, wouldn’t you start to question my integrity? Reality is that it is not possible for me to not fail. If you saw some flaws and all I did was justify them as righteous, wouldn’t you say that I am not seeing reality? I would have a warped perception of myself. This is not different than what I see with Muslims in Islam when they do what I have explained.

I don't see why you want muslims to believe Mohammed peace be upon him did wrong things. It can't be. For you, he wasn't a prophet, he forged Quran and the stuff; but for them, he was a Prophet, the last of the Prophets, and a MESSENGER. And part of the islamic faith is that Messengers don't fall.

Your prime assumption is that he WAS A MAN WHO FORGED QURAN. theirs is : HE WAS THE MESSENGER OF GOD. This makes all the difference.

You have ignored the nature of Jesus. Jesus is perfect because He is God.

Sorry, muslims don't believe Jesus is God, or son of God. For us, he was A MESSENGER, pure and simple. We can't admit that God be crucified. It's just beyond the bounds of reason.

But we believe he wouldn't err as he was a Messenger.

I make statements based upon personal studies into Islam with an attempt to subjectively come to conclusions. If you look around this forum, I almost always engage into the subject of Islam from a Christian defensive stance; so, I study Islam to better understand it and understand how to engage with Muslims. It is not as if I am just throwing around words loosely. I would not make a statement if I did not at least have done some groundwork to substantiate it.

I'm glad you're studying Islam. I encourage you to continue.

Secondly, depending on each person's background, while some people come up with the idea that Quran was forged and Mohammed peace be upon him was not a Messenger, I believe lots of other people undestand better Islam and believe it's the truth from God, when they personally engage in studying it rather than giving up to the anti-Islam media propaganda. Take for example Yvonne Ridley, the famous western journalist who had been held hostage by the Taliban. The CIA slipped a document stating that she was a mossad agent, and wanted the Taliban to kill her for that. For the neocons agenda of course. But the taliban didn't take the bait, and released her after a while. That woman had every reason to see Islam negatively. Unfortunately for the CIA, Yvonne Ridley studied Islam and embraced Islam. When she became muslim, the media hardly spoke about her.

So as you see, usually people with a mission, who are granted loans from the government and all the stuff, orientalists among others, study Islam for the sake of attacking it. Their eyes are blinded by preexistant plan. While ordinary people, especially the ones who have no response to lots of questions, and who suffer out of that, easily embrace Islam after a short period of time studying it, while away from the media and away from the tempters.

 

[LearningSerenity]

Arthra:

• He was illiterate but came from a respected lineage... He was known for Histrustworthiness and kindness.. He married and had a family..He used to seek solitude and prayer on Mount Hira outside the city of Mecca.

And just how do you reconcile this opinion with historical fact that records Muhammad slaughtering and laying waste to many people groups and towns? Further more, have you heard that Muhammad's foster mother even said that she thought that Muahmmad was possessed by a devil?

You see, it's easy enough to say just how great and kind a person is, but the only way that we can be sure is to test this against the life that they live, and ... well ... Muhammad's life doesn't exactly fit the picture that you paint.

I'm just curious. "A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit." Look at the fruit or actions of a person and discover who they truly are and whether or not they walk the walk. In Muhammad's case, the walk and talk are two totally different things.

 

[Arthra]

Arthra:

• He was illiterate but came from a respected lineage... He was known for Histrustworthiness and kindness.. He married and had a family..He used to seek solitude and prayer on Mount Hira outside the city of Mecca.

And just how do you reconcile this opinion with historical fact that records Muhammad slaughtering and laying waste to many people groups and towns? Further more, have you heard that Muhammad's foster mother even said that she thought that Muahmmad was possessed by a devil?

You see, it's easy enough to say just how great and kind a person is, but the only way that we can be sure is to test this against the life that they live, and ... well ... Muhammad's life doesn't exactly fit the picture that you paint.

I'm just curious. "A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit." Look at the fruit or actions of a person and discover who they truly are and whether or not they walk the walk. In Muhammad's case, the walk and talk are two totally different things.

Well thanks "learning Serenity" for your post.. I just happened to be reviewing this thread and found your post addressed to me..

You have such a lovely and significant name "learning serenity" and therefore it saddens me deeply that you cannot reconcile what is agreed about the early life of Ahmad ... Prophet Muhammad...with what is really so misunderstood by so many today.

Until HIs fortieth year Prophet Muhammad sought solitude from the haunts of men every year in the cave of mount Hira...this was similar to the retreat of the Lord Jesus Himself to the wilderness for forty days after His baptism by John the Baptist you may recall.

The new Revelation received through Prophet Muhammad came to Him unsought really and overturned His life... The reaction of His relatives was one of scorn and redicule... only His young cousin Ali and His wife Khadijih believed Him in the beginning.

As more people responded to the call of the new Revelation the Meccan pagan establishment became aware of it and saw it as a threat to the established pilgrim trade and wealth they had accrued from the system of idol worship in the Kaaba.

Anyone professing the new Faith was punished and persecuted or martyred. Finally an embargo was announced that no one would trade with the Hashimites the tribe of the Prophet and anyone who professed their acceptance of Islam.

The Prophet and His followers awaited God's guidance...finally on the very night that the pagan Meccans had decided to kill Muhammad in His bed the guidance came and Ali took the place of the Prophet while the new community escaped to Medina to the north thus beginning the Hijra or Islamic calendar.

After this history tells us the Meccan pagans decided to eliminate the new Muslim community by raising a large army and God's guidance was also clear to the Prophet ..to defend themselves was permissible. The battles were defensive and yes there were battles.

But the concept of Jihad was also later distorted by later Caliphs to expand their domains just as it happened in Christianity that the meekness and peaceful teachings of the Saviour were ignored by Christian rulers and so on...

Finally "Serenity" may the peace you are seeking be found!

- Art

 

[Exegete12]

God said that people added and altered the book by their hand, what they shall not do so.

Torah and Injil were for a specific time but not in the case of Quran which is for all the time.

Please prove that.

 

[Exegete12]

Wrong.

Muslims believe in the Torah and Injil as the true word of God also but we don't believe in the current bible which have many versiosn and errors as you stated by yourself to be the true words of God. Some are but others not and it happened that you agree with me in this case as well.



Thank you because finally you are admitting that the bible has some errors and the word of God have changed.

Therefore, the bible which we read now is not the excact word of God and we can't depend in it.

It's done now.

In the other hand, we have the original Quran and it's the word of God and it's correct 100%.

What about the Pesshita Aramaic bible?

 

[Exegete12]

Because times change and rules change accordingly. One scripture may have not been appropriate for all places and times until the time of the revelation of the Quran. Until then, scriptures where for specific people at specific times.



Three is not the magic number. .... .

Peace

God's Truth and Rules never change.
And um hmmmm three is for the Trinity, lest you forget.

 

[YahwehisHisname]

Until HIs fortieth year Prophet Muhammad sought solitude from the haunts of men every year in the cave of mount Hira...


He was simply a recluse. No one even knew of him really. What men were haunting him and why?


this was similar to the retreat of the Lord Jesus Himself to the wilderness for forty days after His baptism by John the Baptist you may recall.

I can not think of one similarity.


The new Revelation received through Prophet Muhammad came to Him unsought really and overturned His life...


He was seeking demons and one found him. It overturned the souls of billions.

The reaction of His relatives was one of scorn and redicule... only His young cousin Ali and His wife Khadijih believed Him in the beginning.

Right after the demon in the cave nearly killed Muhammed, he ran home and said he was possessed. He tried to commit suicide several times after. It is little wonder why no one wanted to follow him. Only after the promises of stolen booty, sex with slaves and stolen property did the first Muslims get on board with Muhammed.


As more people responded to the call of the new Revelation the Meccan pagan establishment became aware of it and saw it as a threat to the established pilgrim trade and wealth they had accrued from the system of idol worship in the Kaaba.

Hmmm, wasn't Allah the chief Meccan Pagan idol at this time? Makes you wonder, huh? The short answer is.....Ar Rahman was Muhammeds first God.

Anyone professing the new Faith was punished and persecuted or martyred.

What new faith? Did Muhammed want to make the Meccans worship Allah at the Kaaba. Of coarse not, as they already did this.

Finally an embargo was announced that no one would trade with the Hashimites the tribe of the Prophet and anyone who professed their acceptance of Islam.

Please read this for clarity on the topic.

The Prophet and His followers awaited God's guidance...finally on the very night that the pagan Meccans had decided to kill Muhammad in His bed the guidance came and Ali took the place of the Prophet while the new community escaped to Medina to the north thus beginning the Hijra or Islamic calendar.


The Meccans called him “a madman, a plagiarizing poet, a far-fetched forger, a demon possessed sorcerer. There is surely a motive behind the Qur'an.”
Muhammed was transparent to the ones who knew him best. The Satanic verses confirmed it for them. Abu Talib was the only reasons Muhammed wasn't run out of town earlier. Once he died, it was on.
“Gabriel came to the Messenger and said, ‘Do not spend this night in the bed in which you usually sleep.’ When the first third of the night had gone past, the young men gathered at his door and waited for him to go to sleep so that they could fall upon him. When Muhammad saw what they intended to do, he said to Ali , ‘Lie on my bed and wrap yourself up in my green cloak, the one I use when I go to bed. Nothing unpleasant will befall you from them.’” I’m not sure there is even a word to describe such cowardly and despicable behavior.


After this history tells us the Meccan pagans decided to eliminate the new Muslim community by raising a large army and God's guidance was also clear to the Prophet ..to defend themselves was permissible. The battles were defensive and yes there were battles.

What Muslim community? There were only a couple people foolish enough to follow Muhammed at this time you speak. There was no "community". There were about 3 Muslims. Next, Muhammed led over 75 terrorists raids in his life. All but 2 were offensive- not defensive and those 2 are because people got tired of Muhammed's antics. Proof for "defensive battles" can not EVER be proven so why would one claim this?

But the concept of Jihad was also later distorted by later Caliphs to expand their domains just as it happened in Christianity that the meekness and peaceful teachings of the Saviour were ignored by Christian rulers and so on...

Jihad is never said to be a spiritual struggle. It is always referred to as a full force of weapons and arms. Fighting in Allah's cause. Look HERE for proof.

 

[Electra]

Why should I believe Mohammed is a prophet of God and that he brought forth the true word of God?

I mean, what basis do I have to believe that this man is really a prophet of God, and that the book he wrote is from an angle of God and not from him, his scribe, or Satan?

Greetings.

If I may be so bold to say, why should anyone believe Moses spoke to a burning Bush, or Jesus was a son of God.

It works on the same principle.

As far as my belief goes, I have been told not to beieve things based soley on the tradition or the authority of the holy men.
If I find something that cannot be accepted by my mind, and in my heart, no matter now many quations, and traditions are shown to me, they cannot truly make me believe it.

 

[Arthra]

Hello "Jahweh"..

I suppose you were responding to my earlier post and thanks for that.


"Prophet of Doom, Islam's Terrorist Dogma" is not a very objective source to understand the life of Prophet Muhammad.

My hope and prayer is that someday more people will appreciate the need to study history impartially and with more objectivity.

God's blessings!

- Art

 

[DigenisAkritas]

Hello "Jahweh"..

I suppose you were responding to my earlier post and thanks for that.


"Prophet of Doom, Islam's Terrorist Dogma" is not a very objective source to understand the life of Prophet Muhammad.

My hope and prayer is that someday more people will appreciate the need to study history impartially and with more objectivity.

God's blessings!

- Art

That's called poisoning the well, the fact you character assasinate the source does not make the content any less valuable.

 

[YahwehisHisname]

Correct. Site just one error in the thousand page book that gives 500 times the evidence needed and then we'll talk. Read the feedback section to see how well Muslims do in trying to refute the book. Arthra, Prophet of Doom is the most comprehensive, chronological and contextual presentation of Islam ever written. I have been looking for an error for years in that book. Please read it before condemning it. Yes, I know you haven't read it. Moreover, the book presents Islam as Islam presents Islam. It is Muhammed's own words. He uses the oldest and most trusted sources of Islam in existence. Peace to you and yours. BTW it's not (J)ahweh, as that is an IMPOSSIBLE transliteration. The "J" was invented in the 16th century.

 

[shaks]

Site just one error in the thousand page book that gives 500 times the evidence needed and then we'll talk

No it doesnt. You've posted hundereds of these so called evidences and proven wrong every single time. That site is just a load of rubbish.

 

[Snowbunny]

People keep talking about this website, honestly the title sounds pretty polemical... ill check it out for myself

 

[YahwehisHisname]

No it doesnt. You've posted hundereds of these so called evidences and proven wrong every single time. That site is just a load of rubbish.

All I can do is ask. You will never be able to produce one single error. I'm begging you. Now then, since the book gives 5000 reasons why Islam is a fraud, you should be worried. But it gets worse. The book uses the oldest and most trusted sources in Islam so Muslims can't cry foul. Prophet of Doom adds context and chronology to a book(Qu'ran) lacking both, and it uses Muhammeds own words and deeds to portray him as the man he was- a morally bankrupt, genocidal, terrorist. This legacy lives on through todays Muslims.

 

[Skillganon]

All I can do is ask. You will never be able to produce one single error. I'm begging you. Now then, since the book gives 5000 reasons why Islam is a fraud, you should be worried. But it gets worse. The book uses the oldest and most trusted sources in Islam so Muslims can't cry foul. Prophet of Doom adds context and chronology to a book(Qu'ran) lacking both, and it uses Muhammeds own words and deeds to portray him as the man he was- a morally bankrupt, genocidal, terrorist. This legacy lives on through todays Muslims.

How do you ascertain it is Muhammeds own words and deed?

 

[Islam_mulia]

All I can do is ask. You will never be able to produce one single error. I'm begging you. Now then, since the book gives 5000 reasons why Islam is a fraud, you should be worried. But it gets worse. The book uses the oldest and most trusted sources in Islam so Muslims can't cry foul. Prophet of Doom adds context and chronology to a book(Qu'ran) lacking both, and it uses Muhammeds own words and deeds to portray him as the man he was- a morally bankrupt, genocidal, terrorist. This legacy lives on through todays Muslims.

Seriously, if the readers here would care to check the past correspondence bwteen YWHN and Muslims here, they would have seen his cut-and-paste posts from prophetofdoom have been well refuted.


Now, if YWHN still insists the book is irrefutable (and gave 5000 reasons - WOW!), then the challenge is for him to raise the same points in other threads and let a non-christian/muslim judge the way we Muslims argue against them.


Is that fair enough?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Greetings.

If I may be so bold to say, why should anyone believe Moses spoke to a burning Bush, or Jesus was a son of God.

It works on the same principle.

As far as my belief goes, I have been told not to beieve things based soley on the tradition or the authority of the holy men.
If I find something that cannot be accepted by my mind, and in my heart, no matter now many quations, and traditions are shown to me, they cannot truly make me believe it.

Good for you. It may be best just to avoid all religions altogether if that makes you happy. Yes the Bible contains some rather "fantastic" visions, events and some of it can even be called "fantasy land" type events.

I found this one event spoken of to Jacob in the OT that Jesus made reference to, and even Gene 28:12 uses a form of the word "Allah" which the Muslims refer to as their Supreme One.

Btw, is this event recorded by Muhammad in the Koran anywhere as it is a pretty awsome Vision. Peace.

http://www.scripture4all.org/ [Nice interlinear I use]

Genesis 28:12 And he/Jacob dreameth, and Lo!, a ladder/stairway set up/stationing on land, and head/top of it/him is touching toward the heavens; and Lo, messengers of 'elohiym ascending ones [#05927 `alah] and descending ones in him; And Lo! Y@hovah being stationed on him and He is saying: I , Y@hovah 'elohiym of Abraham, father of you, and 'elohiym of Isaac, the land which you lying down on her, to you I shall give her and to seed of you.

John 1:51 And He is saying to him: Verily Verily I am saying to Ye, Ye shall be seeing the heaven having opened and the messengers of God ascending/upstepping [ana-bainontaV] and descending/downstepping [kata-bainontaV] on the Son of the Man.

 

[YahwehisHisname]

Seriously, if the readers here would care to check the past correspondence bwteen YWHN and Muslims here, they would have seen his cut-and-paste posts from prophetofdoom have been well refuted.


Now, if YWHN still insists the book is irrefutable (and gave 5000 reasons - WOW!), then the challenge is for him to raise the same points in other threads and let a non-christian/muslim judge the way we Muslims argue against them.


Is that fair enough?

I am not interested in playing the Muslim game. Don't have time to go in pointless circles. If you had proof, you would have posted it. If you had an error from the book, you would have presented it. It's as simple as that.
There is no need to re hash the book or go through each point with you. The proof is unquestionable. It truth is overwhelming. The conclusion is rationally irrefutable. The evidence is unambiguous and ubiquitous. It is undeniable to a sane mind.


People interested in shedding their ignorance of Islam can go and check it out for themselves. They can read the one thousand letters from Muslims trying to refute the book, to ascertain which side has merit and which side doesn't. They can listen to hundreds of hours of radio interviews. They can examine the resources. They can read the book . All for free. Craig Winn, through Prophet of Doom has rendered us without excuse. Too bad we won't take the time to even crack the book. Instead, we spend time attacking the messenger who has done the world a great service by exposing Islam. Among the first to attack him are ones who call themselves "Christians".
My Father told me that we would be willingly ignorant. He said that those who thought they were smart, become fools. He said that we are destroyed for lack of knowledge. My Father, never seems to be wrong.