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Trusting Mohammed

NASAg03

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Now my dear NASAg, there are many ways in how to prove it and some of it are:

- To use the bible to prove that God must send a prophet to all human beings.

- To prove the validity and accurance of the Quran and that it must be the word of God without any doubt.

So which one you would like us to start with?

Start with #1.

How does the Bible prove that God must send a prophet (Mohammed), who says that God's word has been corrupted because of man and is now delivering the TRUE word of God?

It seems Mohammed has discounted the very thing that proves his authenticity. I started this thread because I mentioned this very thing in another thread, and suddenly it died off.

Most Muslims state that God used Mohammed deliver a true, perfect, uncorrupted book as God's Word. He did this because God's previous words had been corrupted by man.

If that is the case, then all the past words and prophesies in the OT & Bible have also been corruptedand cannot be trusted, including those that prophesy about Mohammed.

You can't discredit part of scripture as corrupt because it's authored by man, and then use other scripture that supports your prophet.

If God cannot ensure the truth of His word, then all recorded prophesies and laws are worthless.
 
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NASAg03

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Same question can be asked about 'Christ'

In the end,a moot question.

I agree. That's why you can't just believe because the authors claim God said it. There has to be more than just he-said / she-said to belief.

I believe God maintains His Word as truth, and ensures that the core of truth is not corrupted. Otherwise, what is the point of speaking to man. What is the point of prophesies and laws if man is going to change it?

All through the OT God's law was maintained. The prophesies were recorded, and there was no reason to change them. Some times the law was not followed, or pagan gods filtered into the Jewish faith. This was followed by a prophet or king who re-established God's law. They did not deliver a new law or book, but commanded that Israel and Judah follow God's law delivered to Moses.

Even Christ didn't deliver a new law or book. He didn't change the law and prophesies (Mohammed), he didn't do away with the law, he fulfilled the law. Christ quoted the OT, and used it in his teachings. He never said it was corrupted by man, or said it needed to be changed. He followed the law, fulfilled the law, and pushed the Jews to also follow the law.

Then you have Mohammed, and later Joseph Smith, who say God's law and prophesies -- His Word -- has been corrupted and humanity is in need of the TRUE WORD, which (coincidently enough) has been given to that one man, alone, by an angle.
 
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TheTruth05

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Everyone posts something they later want to erase. I've done it many times. That doesn't make you dumb.

Welcome to Christian Forums.

Thanks. I'm new here and i was so tired by looking into the deleting thing and until now i don't know how to delete any post. No one can delete a post in this forum?

Not allowed or somthing?
 
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Bookofknowledge

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Why should I believe Mohammed is a prophet of God and that he brought forth the true word of God?

I mean, what basis do I have to believe that this man is really a prophet of God, and that the book he wrote is from an angle of God and not from him, his scribe, or Satan?

10:24
The example of this worldly life (which you love so much that you have even become neglectful of Our signs) is like the water which We send down from the sky; it mingles with the soil and produces vegetation which becomes the food for men and animals. Then, at the very time when the crops are ripened and the land looks attractive, the people to whom it belongs think that they are able to cultivate it, and there comes Our scourge upon it, by night or in broad day, and We mow it down thoroughly as if nothing existed there yesterday! Thus do We spell out Our signs for those who are thoughtful.

10:6
Indeed in the alternation of the night and the day and what Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who are Godfearing.

10:13
We have destroyed generations before your time when they adopted unjust attitudes: their Rasools came to them with clear signs but they would not believe! Thus, do We requite the criminals.

10:74
Then after him We sent Rasools to their descendants. They came to them with clear signs but they would not believe what they had rejected before. Thus, do We set seals upon the hearts of those who (intentionally) exceed the limits.

10:75
Then later on We sent Musa (Moses) and Haroon (Aaron) to Fir'on (Pharaoh) and his chiefs with Our signs. But they showed arrogance, for they were a guilty nation.

10:90
We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Fir'on and his hosts pursued them with wickedness and oppression, until when drowning, he cried out: "I believe that there is no god but Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe and I have become one of the Muslims."

10:91
In response it was said to him: "Now you believe! But a little while before you were disobedient and one of the mischief-makers!

10:92
We shall save your body this day, so that you may become a sign for the succeeding generations, indeed many among mankind are heedless of Our signs!"

10:101
Say: "Look at whatever exists in the heavens and the earth." Signs and warnings do not benefit those people who do not believe.

13:3
He is the One Who spread out the earth and placed thereon mountains and rivers, created fruits of every kind in pairs, two and two and makes the night cover the day. Certainly in these things there are signs for those who use their common sense.

13:4
In the earth there are tracts side by side: gardens of grapes, cornfields and palm trees with single and double trunks - they are all watered with the same water, yet We make some of them excel others in taste. Surely in this, there are signs for people who use their common sense.

14:9
Have you not heard the information of those who passed away before you, the people of Nuh (Noah), `Ad and Thamud, and those who came after them? Allah Alone knows them. Their Rasools came to them with clear signs; but they bit their hands with their mouths and said: "Certainly we reject the Message with which you have been sent and certainly we strongly doubt the faith to which you invite us."

16:12
He has subjected to your service the night and the day, the sun and the moon: and likewise the stars also serve you by His command: surely there are signs in this for people who use their common sense.

16:13
In the Earth He has created things of different colors: surely there is a sign in this for those who want to learn a lesson.

16:44
We sent those Rasools with clear signs and scriptures; and now We have sent down the reminder to you (O Muhammad), so that you may explain clearly to mankind as to what was sent to them so that they may think about it.
 
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TheTruth05

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Start with #1.

How does the Bible prove that God must send a prophet (Mohammed), who says that God's word has been corrupted because of man and is now delivering the TRUE word of God?

Before we start, i want to make sure of somthing.

Can you please show me where does prophet Mohammed said that God's word is corrupted?

Prophet Mohammed instructed us that we don't have to accept all of it and to not reject all. It has alot of truth but there are also some people whom the christians call as "unknown writers of the bible" who added letters, stories, etc to it. We will try to reach to real words of God.

I will prove it from the Torah and Injil as i stated before if you are still interested, if your claim about the corruption of the bible is based on your fear that i might prove it for you so this is an old theory. :D

Just say it now, you want me to prove it for you from your own book or not?

Yes or No, that's all.

Thank you. :)
 
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MK11

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How does the Bible prove that God must send a prophet (Mohammed), who says that God's word has been corrupted because of man and is now delivering the TRUE word of God?

Hi NASAg03
First of all, you must understand what Muslims mean by the corruption of the Bible, God sent the Torah and Gospel to Moses and Jesus (Peace be upon them), but people after them didn't preserve them well, but they added, eliminated and replaced many scriptures so as to fit what they want. There are many errors and contradictions that prove this, there are also false stories about God's prophets illustrated in the Bible them as very wicked people, as saying that Aaron worshiped the calf, or that Lot did the adulteries with his daughters, or that David made the adultery with Batheshba and killed her husband, or that Solomon became a pagan!!!!Is this God's word? Are these God's prophets? All these are false stories added by some wicked people to try justifying their sins or any other intention. But this can't be God's word. These can't be God's prophets who are supposed to be the most righteous people.
Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came to correct all this, to restore humanity back to God's belief. And since much has been subjected to much corruption, it can't be a dependent source to know God because right scripts are mixed with false scripts.

I say it again right scripts are mixed with false scripts. We didn't say that all the Bible is corrupted, but it had been subjected to much corruption, that's why the Quran came, to be a source where we can take our belief and judge the books before, from these books there is the Bible. So when we get scripts talking about Muhammad (Peace be upon him) or denying the Trinity or divinity of Jesus (Peace be upon him), we know that God left some right scripts so as to show the truth for people of the book, yes there have been many scripts added or eliminated or interpolated in the Bible, and from these scripts there , were much more clear scripts talking about Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in the Bible, and there have been many actions against these scripts to burry them as much as they can, but there are still some signs from the scripts that prove the Bible foretelling of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), these signs will be very clear when analyzing them. That's all what we do.

I am sorry if I annoyed you but I hope that you understand what I mean.

Waiting for your reply
Thanks
 
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I_are_sceptical

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you must understand what we mean by the corruption of the Bible, God sent the Torah and Gospel to Moses and Jesus (Peace be upon them), but people after them didn't preserve them well, but they added, eliminated and replaced many scriptures so as to fit what they want. There are many errors and contradictions that prove this, there are also false stories about God's prophets that illustrate them as very wicked people, as saying that Aaron worshipped the cow, or that Lot did the adulteries with his daughters, or that David made the adultery with Batheshba and killed her husband, or that Solomon became a pagan!!!!Is this God's word? Are these God's prophets? All these are false stories added by some wicked people to try justifying their sins or any other intention. But this can't be God's word. These can't be God's prophets who are supposed to be the most righteous people.
Are you saying that people who thought the Bible was God's Word changed it? Would anyone who believes the Holy Qur'an is God's Word make changes in it?

There is a statement in the New Testament in which an Old Testament prophecy is attributed to the wrong prophet. (Zechariah and Jeremiah, I think) It is a glaring and obvious error, yet not one edition of the Bible DARES to print the correct name in that verse. Dozens of publishers, for centuries, have been scared to make that change. They would rather look like fools, printing a mistake, than change a single word of the Bible.

Secondly, if Muhammad commits an act which non-Muslims do not approve of, does that mean He is not God's Apostle? I remember reading somewhere in the Qur'an that Muhammad was talking to an important person, and a blind man wanted to speak to Him. Muhammad treated the blind man rudely. He frowned and turned His back, and God was displeased. Does that mean Muhammad was not righteous? Do you deny that Moses killed an Egyptian?
 
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I_are_sceptical

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- Why there is a lot of versions for the bible?

- Why some of these versions contradict each other?

- Why older version of the same bible is different than what we have now?
There are many versions because a lot of people wanted to publish a Bible of their own.

There are contradictions between different versions because of varying translations and errors made by people copying the text by hand.
 
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Snowbunny

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Start with #1.

How does the Bible prove that God must send a prophet (Mohammed), who says that God's word has been corrupted because of man and is now delivering the TRUE word of God?

It seems Mohammed has discounted the very thing that proves his authenticity. I started this thread because I mentioned this very thing in another thread, and suddenly it died off.

Most Muslims state that God used Mohammed deliver a true, perfect, uncorrupted book as God's Word. He did this because God's previous words had been corrupted by man.

If that is the case, then all the past words and prophesies in the OT & Bible have also been corruptedand cannot be trusted, including those that prophesy about Mohammed.

You can't discredit part of scripture as corrupt because it's authored by man, and then use other scripture that supports your prophet.

If God cannot ensure the truth of His word, then all recorded prophesies and laws are worthless.

ive been curious about this too... why would God send revelations that would just be corrupted, and send a final one which couldnt be...
 
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NASAg03

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Before we start, i want to make sure of somthing.

Can you please show me where does prophet Mohammed said that God's word is corrupted?

I don't need to look it up in the Quran. If the OT and Historical account of Christ weren't "corrupted", then the Quran wouldn't be necessary. Am I wrong?


Prophet Mohammed instructed us that we don't have to accept all of it and to not reject all. It has alot of truth but there are also some people whom the christians call as "unknown writers of the bible" who added letters, stories, etc to it. We will try to reach to real words of God.

Did he say which parts were corrupt? If he didn't point out the errors in the OT and Bible, and say what is to believe, then how are his followers supposed to know what is truth and what is a lie? Y'all don't believe the Holy Spirit speaks to people (or inspires them to write), so it can't be that which guys a Muslim in his search for truth.

I will prove it from the Torah and Injil as i stated before if you are still interested, if your claim about the corruption of the bible is based on your fear that i might prove it for you so this is an old theory. :D

Just say it now, you want me to prove it for you from your own book or not?

Yes or No, that's all.

Thank you. :)

Yeah, prove it from the OT. And contrasting the Quran with the OT isn't really "proof" that the Quran is correct, or that there were errors.

I've alread said this thread is a discussion, not a cut-n-paste collection from Bible contradiction websites. I've seen the websites, and I've seen the sites that point out Quran contradictions.

Both the Bible and the Quran contradictions can be explained based on context or other information. Don't try to make this thread that discussion -- it will only turn into a bunch of links to provingislam.com and provingchristianity.com or whatever else webpages.

What I am discussion here is that with your rational and justification of Mohammed, any person before him (or after him a la Joseph Smith) can say "God's word has been corrupted, and He has given me His true word".

Anyone before Mohammed that didn't agree with the Bible or Tanakh could have come along and made the same statement Mohammed did, that past words of God have been corrupted by man. That person could have re-written old scriptures to their liking, to put God in a box they could believe in, instead of have faith.

Would you agree?

Who's to say that Mohammed wasn't that guy?
 
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I_are_sceptical

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If the OT and Historical account of Christ weren't "corrupted", then the Quran wouldn't be necessary. Am I wrong?
Yes, you are wrong. The people of Arabia worshipped idols. The Jews and Christians couldn't persuade them to believe in one God, so God sent Muhammad.

That is why the Qur'an was necessary.
 
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NASAg03

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How does the Bible prove that God must send a prophet (Mohammed), who says that God's word has been corrupted because of man and is now delivering the TRUE word of God?

Hi NASAg03
First of all, you must understand what we mean by the corruption of the Bible, God sent the Torah and Gospel to Moses and Jesus (Peace be upon them), but people after them didn't preserve them well, but they added, eliminated and replaced many scriptures so as to fit what they want. There are many errors and contradictions that prove this, there are also false stories about God's prophets that illustrate them as very wicked people, as saying that Aaron worshipped the cow, or that Lot did the adulteries with his daughters, or that David made the adultery with Batheshba and killed her husband, or that Solomon became a pagan!!!!Is this God's word? Are these God's prophets? All these are false stories added by some wicked people to try justifying their sins or any other intention. But this can't be God's word. These can't be God's prophets who are supposed to be the most righteous people.


You are putting God's messengers in a box, a convenient stereotype that you think they should fit in. Mohammed didn't want to believe God would use broken, failed sinners to deliver His word. He thought the people that deliver God's word should be perfect, and so he changed the message to fit his view of God.

If God only used perfect people to deliver His word, we wouldn't have any scriptural writings. Man is corrupt, full of sin, in need of redemption and forgiviness. We will always commit sins here on earth. God expects perfection, but he knows we wont' acheive perfection.

He looks at the heart, and he forgives. Although David sinned against man and against God, and failed God's law with his heart, God forgave him. We worship a just and holy God, but we also worship a merciful and forgiving God.

David's actions didn't go unpunished. His kingdom was split, he was always on the run and in hiding, and he wasn't allowed to build the temple because of his sin.

That's not corruption in the Bible. That's TRUTH, and the facts that we sin, we mess up, but God forgives and loves us in spite of our actions. He looks at our heart, not our actions, for our actions are the RESULT of our heart.

Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came to correct all this, to restore humanity back to God's belief. And since much has been subjected to much corruption, it can't be a dependent source to know God because right scripts are mixed with false scripts.


Which one's are true and which one's are not? The ones the contradict the Bible? Anyone before Mohammed could have done the same thing, written a new book to fit his idea of God and God's followers, and said the old version was corrupt.

I say it again right scripts are mixed with false scripts. We didn't say that all the Bible is corrupted, but it had been subjected to much corruption, that's why the Quran came, to be a source where we can take our belief and judge the books before, from these books there is the Bible. So when we get scripts talking about Muhammad (Peace be upon him) or denying the Trinity or divinity of Jesus (Peace be upon him), we know that God left some right scripts so as to show the truth for people of the book, yes there have been many scripts added or eliminated or interpolated in the Bible, and from these scripts there were much more clear scripts talking about Muhammad (Peace be upon him), and there have been many actions against these scripts to burry them as much as they can, but there are still some signs from the scripts that prove the foretelling of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), these signs will be very clear when analyzing them. That's all what we do.

I am sorry if I annoyed you but I hope that you understand what I mean.

Waiting for your reply
Thanks

If God is going to bother giving prophesies to man concerning a prophet of Mohammed's magnitude, you would think He could at least ensure these prophesies aren't corrupted or lost, so we can get a good understanding and believe in this prophet.
 
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NASAg03

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Yes, you are wrong. The people of Arabia worshipped idols. The Jews and Christians couldn't persuade them to believe in one God, so God sent Muhammad.

That is why the Qur'an was necessary.

Why didn't someone just convert the Tanakh and/or Bible into Arabic and use Mohammed as a missionary or preacher?

Muslims don't think God just sent Mohammed spread his word - they believe God gave him his TRUE word and that the past word was corrupt and erroneous.
 
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NASAg03

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There are many versions because a lot of people wanted to publish a Bible of their own.

There are contradictions between different versions because of varying translations and errors made by people copying the text by hand.

Majority of the translations have been used to find better English words to fit the original Hebrew and Greek words. It's no secret that English is a hard, mixed language. It's also no secret that languages change.

There are many translations because Christians believe (at the command of Chist) we are to share God's Word with ALL people, including those that have poor English skills. There is a Bible for these people.

The words have changed, and some translations are better than others. But the truth and the message has not changed. Why do you think the Dead Sea Scrolls were such an important find?

They compared these scrolls to our present day Bible, and found few errors. The historians and Dead Sea Scroll experts can chime in here...

That means that the OT writings were corrupted before 200 BC, since the Hebrew and Greek writings we have today match up with the dead sea scrolls.
 
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I_are_sceptical

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Why didn't someone just convert the Tanakh and/or Bible into Arabic
I'm assuming that the Jews and Christians who lived in Arabia 1400 years ago could speak Arabic and preached in that language.

and use Mohammed as a missionary or preacher?
If the claims of Islam are true then God had a claim on Muhammad, which would mean that no-one else was capable of steering Muhammad away to do something else.

Muslims don't think God just sent Mohammed spread his word - they believe God gave him his TRUE word and that the past word was corrupt and erroneous.
True. But I am not a member of the Muslim religious system. I just believe Muhammad was God's Apostle. I don't necessarily accept all the details of the Islamic religion as it is defined today.
 
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0rion

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It seems Mohammed has discounted the very thing that proves his authenticity. I started this thread because I mentioned this very thing in another thread, and suddenly it died off.

Most Muslims state that God used Mohammed deliver a true, perfect, uncorrupted book as God's Word. He did this because God's previous words had been corrupted by man.

Such claims that muslim make, make God capable of error. I thought that God was infallible. :scratch:

God was not able to keep Jewish and Christian scriptures error free... but he is able to keep the Quran error free? Was God practicing how to keep a scripture error free and he got the hang of it on the third try? The reason I am saying this is because muslims believe God doesn't need to send another scripture and God is keeping the Quran from becoming corrupt.
 
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Arthra

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ive been curious about this too... why would God send revelations that would just be corrupted, and send a final one which couldnt be...

I think that's an excellent question!

But I believe the Gospel was not corrupted as some here suggest.

I believe it was spiritually inspired but not necessarily accurate by today's standards of history...but still spiritually viable.

The Qur'an being later historically is more directly verifiable and authentic but it also builds on the Gospel as a previous revealtion from God.

The Qur'an also is not the "Final" one as God's chosen method is to reveal His Word in His own time through His Messengers.

God is not tied down and as long as mankind continues we will need guidance.

That's a Baha'i view of course.

- Art
 
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