Trump's Falling Star - US News and World Report

[DaisyDay]

So to be clear ..you are blaming Biden for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Don't forget Hillary Clinton and George Soros - and to a lesser extent, Bill Gates.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Honestly, Oompa Loompa, it should really not be hard to understand that the AGGRESSOR is the one that CHOOSES WAR.

That isn't always the case. Sometimes, people escalate things until the "aggressor" believes they have no choice but to go to war. You brought up rape, which I think is shameful of you, but since you went there, let's roll with it.

True, women never deserve to be raped. And generally speaking, a woman isn't blamed when they are raped. Especially when you have scenarios where a woman is attacked by an intruder in her own home. But let's say a woman is at a club and begins making advances towards a person she doesn't know and ends up getting drunk and going home with him. Knowing she is drunk, the man has sex with her and the next day she says she was raped. Again, she didn't deserve it and the man should be prosecuted. However, did her poor decisions not elevate the risk? Is she not responsible for those poor decisions that ultimately led to her rape?

Likewise, Putin is responsible for his actions. However, NATO leaders are to blame for their poor foreign policy decisions that brought everything to this point.

 

[rambot]

That isn't always the case. Sometimes, people escalate things until the "aggressor" believes they have no choice but to go to war. You brought up rape, which I think is shameful of you, but since you went there, let's roll with it.

True, women never deserve to be raped. And generally speaking, a woman isn't blamed when they are raped. Especially when you have scenarios where a woman is attacked by an intruder in her own home. But let's say a woman is at a club and begins making advances towards a person she doesn't know and ends up getting drunk and going home with him. Knowing she is drunk, the man has sex with her and the next day she says she was raped. Again, she didn't deserve it and the man should be prosecuted. However, did her poor decisions not elevate the risk? Is she not responsible for those poor decisions that ultimately led to her rape?

Likewise, Putin is responsible for his actions. However, NATO leaders are to blame for their poor foreign policy decisions that brought everything to this point.

1) It seems absurd to EVEN SUGGEST let alone entertain the idea that "Putin had no choice but to go to war" when it's an imperialistic move. I don't think it's shameful....just ridiculous.

2) Nothing wrong with a rape and war analogy and I'm genuinely curious why you'd think those two scenarios are really not comparable.

2) In your scenario, it doesn't indicate whether the woman gave consent to sex so I can't really make any kind of judgement about a hypothetical that is missing a pretty key piece of information. In some states, intoxication implies no consent but who knows with a hypothetical.

And women frequently get blamed for their rape. It's pretty much the key defense used by every single perpetrator in court.

2. No.
Putin is to blame.
NATO's actions are the "getting drunk" in your rape analogy. No matter how poor an idea is, that doesn't mean the victim or the bystander are to blame. The only person to blame is the perpetrator who made that choice.

To couch it in terms you'll accept:
It's like saying every single attendees of hte January 6 protest was involved in an insurrection.
No.
Just those people trying to overturn the results of the election were true insurrectionists.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

1) It seems absurd to EVEN SUGGEST let alone entertain the idea that "Putin had no choice but to go to war" when it's an imperialistic move. I don't think it's shameful....just ridiculous.

2) Nothing wrong with a rape and war analogy and I'm genuinely curious why you'd think those two scenarios are really not comparable.

2) In your scenario, it doesn't indicate whether the woman gave consent to sex so I can't really make any kind of judgement about a hypothetical that is missing a pretty key piece of information. In some states, intoxication implies no consent but who knows with a hypothetical.

And women frequently get blamed for their rape. It's pretty much the key defense used by every single perpetrator in court.

2. No.
Putin is to blame.
NATO's actions are the "getting drunk" in your rape analogy. No matter how poor an idea is, that doesn't mean the victim or the bystander are to blame. The only person to blame is the perpetrator who made that choice.

To couch it in terms you'll accept:
It's like saying every single attendees of hte January 6 protest was involved in an insurrection.
No.
Just those people trying to overturn the results of the election were true insurrectionists.

A woman is not responsible for the actions of the rapist but she is responsible for the poor decisions that increased the risk. Likewise, Ukraine and NATO isn't responsible for the actions of Putin, but they are responsible for their poor decisions that increased the risk...period.

 

[rambot]

A woman is not responsible for the actions of the rapist but she is responsible for the poor decisions that increased the risk. Likewise, Ukraine and NATO isn't responsible for the actions of Putin, but they are responsible for their poor decisions that increased the risk...period.

They are responsible for THEIR OWN ACTIONS. Sure. I mean, it makes me laugh how folks just gloss over Trump actively HELPING Putin as opposed to simply not hindering as NATO has done. They are not responsible for PUTIN'S ACTIONS. PUTIN is responsible for his actions.

vis a vis. Putin is to blame.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

They are responsible for THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

Absolutely! Now, do we both agree that Biden and many other NATO leaders, past and present, are responsible for their own actions and inactions that has brought thins to this point?

 

[KCfromNC]

Absolutely! Now, do we both agree that Biden and many other NATO leaders, past and present, are responsible for their own actions and inactions that has brought thins to this point?

I think we'd need a list of those actions before answering the question.

 

[A_Thinker]

Sometimes, people escalate things until the "aggressor" believes they have no choice but to go to war.

Russia is one of the two most powerful nations in the world. There is no excuse for their aggression against Ukraine. Noone was threatening them.

 

[A_Thinker]

But let's say a woman is at a club and begins making advances towards a person she doesn't know and ends up getting drunk and going home with him. Knowing she is drunk, the man has sex with her and the next day she says she was raped. Again, she didn't deserve it and the man should be prosecuted. However, did her poor decisions not elevate the risk? Is she not responsible for those poor decisions that ultimately led to her rape?

This wasn't the situation between Russia and Ukraine.

Ukraine declared independence from Russia after the Russian revolution in 1917 or so. But Russia hasn't been willing to let them go.

Ukraine is more like an abused spouse trying to get away from their abuser ...

 

[A_Thinker]

Absolutely! Now, do we both agree that Biden and many other NATO leaders, past and present, are responsible for their own actions and inactions that has brought thins to this point?

Russia has been itching to get Ukraine back under their control for as long as Putin has been in power. There is, nothing, ultimately, which could have stopped him ... except possibly waging proactive sanctions to keep Russia poor and weak. But that's complicated by the fact that Russia has enough nuclear weaponry to destroy the entire world.

Also, after the fall of the Soviet Union, ... the world gave Russia a chance to start over ... and to be prosperous rather than threatening ...

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Russia is one of the two most powerful nations in the world. There is no excuse for their aggression against Ukraine. Noone was threatening them.

Do you think it is wrong for Putin to be threatened by NATO? If not, why would you think it would be wrong for Russia to feel threatened by the possibility of another border country becoming a NATO member?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

This wasn't the situation between Russia and Ukraine.

Ukraine declared independence from Russia after the Russian revolution in 1917 or so. But Russia hasn't been willing to let them go.

Ukraine is more like an abused spouse trying to get away from their abuser ...

This goes beyond Ukraine. This is like law enforcement giving the abuser her location and telling her that if you abused her, we will not arrest you or prosecute you. But we may write you a very harshly worded letter telling you how much we condemn your abuse.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

There is, nothing, ultimately, which could have stopped him .

How about the threat of mutually assured destruction with the willingness to follow through?

 

[A_Thinker]

Do you think it is wrong for Putin to be threatened by NATO? If not, why would you think it would be wrong for Russia to feel threatened by the possibility of another border country becoming a NATO member?

NATO is a defensive organization. Countries joined NATO for security against Russia's aggression.

Russia had no reason to fear NATO ... and only cared that NATO would get in the way of it achieving its goals of conquest or hegemony.

 

[A_Thinker]

This goes beyond Ukraine. This is like law enforcement giving the abuser her location and telling her that if you abused her, we will not arrest you or prosecute you. But we may write you a very harshly worded letter telling you how much we condemn your abuse.

Ukraine unfortunately was not a member of NATO. And Ukraine is right next to Russia.

NATO, in this instance, is more like a hostage negotiator ... trying to minimize the harmful effects of a hostage situation.

 

[A_Thinker]

How about the threat of mutually assured destruction with the willingness to follow through?

Noone wants nuclear weapons to be unleashed ... as that will trash the planet for everyone ...