Trump is found liable for fraud in New York civil case

[rambot]

I've been following the trial via daily reporting and (allegedly) informed commentary.

There seems to be a consensus that Trump's lawyers are deliberately trying to provoke the Judge through their behaviour and that of Trump. The idea is to push him (the Judge) to the point where he makes an intemperate remark or decision which may invalidate the trial or open up an opportunity for appeal.

OB

FAAAAR too common of a Republican response. You can't let the facts of reality play because evidence would convict you so you have to "own" someone.

Pathetic.

 

[Larniavc]

Seeing the handwritten edits also published in the final statement version, he acknowledged he must have primarily written the disclosure about asset valuations that deviated from generally accepted accounting principles.

The best people.

 

[Bradskii]

"...Numbers don’t represent fully what these assets are worth,”​

An accountant is on oath saying that?

 

[essentialsaltes]

But on Tuesday, the Trump Organization's former corporate controller, Jeffrey McConney, testified it was his understanding that Trump reviewed the financial statements before they were finalized.

On the stand on Tuesday, lawyers for James' office presented McConney with a draft of Trump's net worth statement for 2014 which had a note in blue ink on the first page that said: "DJT TO GET FINAL REVIEW."

McConney's testimony "will permit Engoron to find that Trump himself approved the financial report," Stephen Gillers, a law professor at New York University, told Newsweek.

"Trump is careful to leave no written or recorded trail of what he knows. That has allowed him to blame errors on others, including employees of his organization and outside accountants, for any unlawful conduct. Even now, we can expect Trump to argue that despite McConney's sentence, in fact he did not see the report."

 

[ralliann]

Funny how the judge is including property assessor's valuations. In my experience they can be off hundreds of percent. I owned land where it was valued around 60,000 for several years. I sold it for 23,000 after being on the market for a year. I would have appealed its value but I lived out of state and just wanted to sell it. I saw more radical valuations that benefitted the owner. For example, one property sold for 19 million a year later. I looked at the property tax valuation for it and it was listed at just under two million. Same county who I guess favored the rich in this example.

Trump likely was fraudulent but so many things are today that unless there was harm, this action is just political. Elizabeth Warren said she was Native American, no real consequences for that. People making up sexes, pronouns, and fake accounts. Businesses like google and Amazon that sell ads or products with fraudulent claims or even fake items. Ratings are often fake, scammers abound and there is not even a face to this. Jesus discerned that Nathaniel had no guile. No deceit. Some Amish are like that when they can't sign their income taxes because it is so difficult to keep exact records and they are afraid to lie. Yet they can get prosecuted for this. Courts often lie because they pretend to follow the U.S. Constitution, or exempt certain evidence from jurors. Even if you say how are you, not only is the answer a lie at times, fine, but the question itself is really a greeting not a true seeking of the persons well being. I once went to televised evangelist's meeting. I sat in the 4th row but was told I must set in the first or second row. I complied but I was wondering why. as the meeting was very poorly attended as it got set to go. Only the first two rows were filled but when I saw meetings that aired, the lights and cameras were perfectly positioned so that you really never saw the empty chairs. Jails that pretend to treat, teachers that pretend to teach, counties that pretend to count every vote. politicians that pretend to represent anyone but themselves. I'm sure I have misrepresented myself in many things like calling in sick when I could have gone to work, but working sick too when I should have stayed home. This is no defense for Trump but let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Just look at how jan 6th was handled compared to antifa and blm riots. nSame thing. Yes, both were wrong, but jan 6 was nothing compared to the other riots we watched repeatedly all summer long.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Just look at how jan 6th was handled compared to antifa and blm riots. nSame thing. Yes, both were wrong, but jan 6 was nothing compared to the other riots we watched repeatedly all summer long.

Off topic. This thread is about Trump's current fraud trial.

 

[ralliann]

Off topic. This thread is about Trump's current fraud trial.

Until it isn't for you.

 

[NxNW]

Just look at how jan 6th was handled compared to antifa and blm riots. nSame thing. Yes, both were wrong, but jan 6 was nothing compared to the other riots we watched repeatedly all summer long.

You're right. It was an insurrection.

 

[A2SG]

You're right. It was an insurrection.

Well, to be fair, it was an attempted insurrection. Fortunately, it failed.

-- A2SG, and really disappointed its instigator....

 

[essentialsaltes]

Donald Trump to be the last defense witness called in his civil fraud trial next month​

Attorneys for Donald Trump told the court Monday that they plan to call the former president to the stand on December 11 as their last witness in the New York civil fraud trial.

A Trump Organization executive testified in court Monday that the company no longer compiles the personal financial statement – the statement of financial condition – for the former president because they are not required by any lenders at this time.

[I guess that's one way to avoid creating fraudulent documents -- create no documents at all.]

 

[Hank77]

A Trump Organization executive testified in court Monday that the company no longer compiles the personal financial statement – the statement of financial condition – for the former president because they are not required by any lenders at this time.

Surely they do produce a financial statement for the company. But no longer a statement for Trump's personal finances? Lenders probably would have required both.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Just look at how jan 6th was handled compared to antifa and blm riots. nSame thing. Yes, both were wrong, but jan 6 was nothing compared to the other riots we watched repeatedly all summer long.

Jan 6 was a much bigger deal because of what it represented, not because of the amount of physical damage caused. Jan 6 was an attempt to thwart the peaceful transfer of power after a fair election - one of the processes that literally makes our nation what it is. If it had only about some dudes messing up Nancy Pelosi’s office, then it would be little more than a historical footnote. But it was an attack on our system of government.

 

[Occams Barber]

Just look at how jan 6th was handled compared to antifa and blm riots. nSame thing. Yes, both were wrong, but jan 6 was nothing compared to the other riots we watched repeatedly all summer long.

You really don't understand the difference do you?

Imagine someone broke into your home to steal your wallet.

Then imagine someone broke into your home to kill you and your family.

Would you expect the court to treat the two events differently?

The important issue here is not the act of breaking in. It's the REASON they broke in.

This difference in intention also applies to the BLM riot versus the Jan 6th riot.

OB

 

[ralliann]

You really don't understand the difference do you?

Imagine someone broke into your home to steal your wallet.

Then imagine someone broke into your home to kill you and your family.

Would you expect the court to treat the two events differently?

The important issue here is not the act of breaking in. It's the REASON they broke in.

This difference in intention also applies to the BLM riot versus the Jan 6th riot.

OB

Yeah I don't have to imagine, we seen just that all summer long. So it not me who is imagining here.

 

[JustOneWay]

Yeah I don't have to imagine, we seen just that all summer long. So it not me who is imagining here.

Antifa and BLM folks who broke laws were punished. Trump supporters on Jan 6th who broke laws were punished.

There is nothing else to discuss regarding 'fairness'.

 

[ralliann]

Antifa and BLM folks who broke laws were punished. Trump supporters on Jan 6th who broke laws were punished.

There is nothing else to discuss regarding 'fairness'.

I quess we just imagine things differently.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Forbes comes out swinging, shows receipts.

Trump’s Longtime CFO Lied, Under Oath, About Trump Tower Penthouse​

Forbes Releases Tape Of Trump Lying About Penthouse, Contradicting His Court Testimony​

In court, Trump deflected blame for the error onto unnamed individuals, despite personally promoting the exaggerated size. The newly released audio clip intensifies the exaggeration, revealing Trump’s claim of a 33,000-square-foot apartment.

 

[JustOneWay]

I quess we just imagine things differently.

I don't imagine things. I read what happens....

Over 300 People Facing Federal Charges For Crimes Committed During Nationwide Demonstrations

The Department of Justice announced today that more than 300 individuals in 29 states and Washington, D.C., have been charged for crimes committed adjacent to or under the guise of peaceful demonstrations since the end of May.

www.justice.gov

 

[ralliann]

I don't imagine things. I read what happens....

Over 300 People Facing Federal Charges For Crimes Committed During Nationwide Demonstrations

The Department of Justice announced today that more than 300 individuals in 29 states and Washington, D.C., have been charged for crimes committed adjacent to or under the guise of peaceful demonstrations since the end of May.

www.justice.gov

Sure, I also seen what happened as well.

 

[GDL]

$18m Market Value for Mar a Lago is ludicrous, just as I've seen several real estate pros say in some articles I've glanced at. Anybody who wants to opine on this can easily look at info online re: property values in this area of FL.

Assessed Value for property tax purposes in the states I'm familiar with (incl FL) are typically not close to Market Value. They are based upon several factors including current zoning and use of the property and values of a range of properties. We don't tell the County what the value of the property is. The County Tax Assessor tells us what the value of the property is, and they tax it accordingly.

Market Value of a property is an entirely different matter. The following is a definition of Market Value for real estate from the Fannie Mae website (you can look up what this GSE is on Wikipedia or elsewhere). It is in essence what every real estate professional is taught in RE101. In essence Market Value is what price a willing buyer and willing seller will transact a property for. Several subjective factors can also enter into the equation. To bet against someone like Trump on what he could transact Mar a Lago for would not be a very smart bet.

Definition of Market Value​

Market value is the most probable price that a property should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller, each acting prudently, knowledgeably and assuming the price is not affected by undue stimulus. Implicit in this definition is the consummation of a sale as of a specified date and the passing of title from seller to buyer under conditions whereby:

• buyer and seller are typically motivated;
• both parties are well informed or well advised, and each acting in what they consider to be in their own best interest;
• a reasonable time is allowed for exposure in the open market;
• payment is made in terms of cash in U.S. dollars or in terms of financial arrangements comparable thereto; and
• the price represents the normal consideration for the property sold unaffected by special or creative financing or sales concessions granted by anyone associated with the sale.

When it comes to property valuations all one can really do is provide estimates. It is time consuming and expensive to appraise properties and if a bank wants appraisals, it will so direct that they be done. Appraisals are also estimates of value and in legal conflicts over property values, it used to be typical in contracts that each party hire their own appraiser and if no agreement could be reached, the 2 appraisers would jointly choose a third appraiser to be the final estimator of value.

A banker with a long career in banking once told me he always modifies the language above the signature line on form financial statements that says something to the effect "...this represents the true value...." by deleting "true" and inserting "estimate of" in its place.

I'm not following this lawsuit, but if its, or part of its basis is property values based upon tax assessor's valuations, it should have been dismissed.