Trump is another Constantine the Great?

[timothyu]

To be fair, they have probably done millions of pap smears and breast exams for women with no insurance. They have provided birth control for women with medical problems where pregnancy might be a real danger.

A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

We're going off topic here, but many abortions are performed to save the life of the mother. So you agree (at last!) that Planned Parenthood has saved millions of lives! Great!

Not at Planned Parenthood Clinics.

They only perform routine abortions usually before the 2nd trimester. If it's an emergency, the woman is sent to the ER and the abortion is performed at the hospital.

As it is, most PP clinics don't perform abortions or most healthcare services, but refer the women on where to get the services.

However, after the ACA passed, women depended less on PP clinics as they were able to get their own primary care physicians.

Many years back, my cousin got pregnant. She went to a PP clinic for a pregnancy test, which came back positive. Instead of giving her info on how to keep the baby, they only provided info on how and where to abort the pregnancy. When she told them she was going to keep the baby, they told her as a single mother, she's being foolish and they couldn't help her.

She ended up having twins who are now in their early 40's. One served in the Marines, the other became a lawyer. They have no use for PP.

 

[Ohorseman]

Well, I see similarities between Trump and Constantine and that was the point. Here we are now, arguing with a few people that want to actually defend Planned Parenthood... an agency that has taken more lives than the US military in all of our country's wars combined. The rules of this site state this about abortion:

Abortion, adultery, premarital sex, and marijuana use may be discussed, but encouraging participation in these activities is not allowed.

It seems to me that defending the major purveyor of abortion is encouraging participation. It is odd to me that fellow Christians would voice such support and defense. It seems to me that many reduce the graveness of that sin so that they can be more comfortable casting a vote that supports it.

Lord have Mercy on us

 

[tulc]

(snip) Here we are now, arguing with a few people that want to actually defend Planned Parenthood... an agency that has taken more lives than the US military in all of our country's wars combined. (snip)

No they haven't, and they've prevented more abortions than all of the laws passed, all the screaming from the anti-abortion people and "Marches for Life" parades ever have.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[Ohorseman]

No they haven't, and they've prevented more abortions than all of the laws passed, all the screaming from the anti-abortion people and "Marches for Life" parades ever have.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

Tulc, please.
Tulc, please.
Tulc, please.

Planned Parenthood has killed 8.9 million.
Number of Abortions in US & Worldwide - Number of abortions since 1973

Our military has killed 1.1 million in all USA wars.
How many Americans have died in U.S. wars?

Planned Parenthood has killed more than our Military with body count starting 1776. The spirit of the world is blinding people. What makes you scream, Tulc. Lord have mercy on us.

 

[tulc]

Tulc, please.
Tulc, please.
Tulc, please.
(snip)

...and yet they've still prevented more abortions than all the Marches for Life and people screaming outside of clinics ever have...
tulc(still thought that should be pointed out)

 

[Ohorseman]

A serial killer refrains from killing 100 people . He only kills 40. Wow, that guy saved 60 people. What a hero.

 

[tulc]

A serial killer refrains from killing 100 people . He only kills 40. Wow, that guy saved 60 people. What a hero.

doesn't change the fact that they've prevented more abortions than any of those things I mentioned. I know it's kind of galling when you realize it, but, a fact is still a fact even if it's something you don't like.
tulc(is sorry, but that's just a simple truth)

 

[jgarden]

At first, I was thinking Trump was like a John the Baptist figure. Indeed he is a fiery preacher from the wilderness. But he is from the political wilderness, a political preacher... not a holy man like John the Baptist. That does not fit. However, based upon Trump's Christian friendly positions, he is very much like Emperor Constantine, don't you think?

[STAFF EDITED]

"The doctrines of piety have been brought to ruin and the laws of the church are thrown into confusion. The ambition of those who do not fear the Lord rushes into the foremost positions, and episcopal office is now publicly known as the prize of impiety. The result is that the more a man blasphemes the more worthy people judge him to be a bishop." (Letter 92.2)
- St . Basil

After Constantine legalized Christianity, under the Edict of Milan in 313, pagan elites in search of notoriety and political gain filled the institutional church. In this season of significant transition in the Roman Empire, opportunists took the title "Christian" and sought ecclesiastical positions to improve one's socio-political status. People became Christian in name only, thus compromising the morality of the church. Already at the Council of Nicaea in 325, church officials recognized that too many ill-prepared pagan converts had been promoted to positions of leadership.

By the 360's and 370's, Basil perceived this leadership crisis as a "shipwreck" plunging Christians into a sea of ignorance, division, and ungodliness.

https://www.cappadociahistory.com/post/st-basils-monastic-vision
******************************************************************************
The attempt by the OP to compare President Trump as the modern day Roman Emperor Constantine who brought an end to the persecution of Christians might be closer to the truth than one might think - but not for the obvious reasons!

Once the Edict of Milan (313 AD) made Christianity respectable, it triggered a stampede of new coverts - many of whom saw it as nothing more than a convenient vehicle to promote their secular political, economic and social aspirations!

Many true Christians, such as St. Basil, appalled at what they saw as the new "imperial" Church being inundated and controlled by corrupt opportunists, decided to withdraw from society and establish the monastic movement, whereby dedicating themselves to lives that exemplified the teachings in the New Testament!

St. Basil would have viewed conservative Christians embracing a boastful, billionaire "narcissist" like Donald Trump, who represents the very antithesis of their religious beliefs, as just another example of history repeating itself!

 

[Ohorseman]

Tulc, there is no way to measure how many moms decided to keep their babies alive because of the efforts of prolife people, people that have never even been to a march. If and when Planned Parenthood lives up to their name and actually prevents abortions, I would be thrilled, not galled. It is estimated that there has been 1.5 BILLION abortions since 1980. That's more lives that the population of China. It is the atrocity of the century. That's why Biden was refused communion by a good priest.

 

[creslaw]

Well, I see similarities between Trump and Constantine and that was the point. Here we are now, arguing with a few people that want to actually defend Planned Parenthood... an agency that has taken more lives than the US military in all of our country's wars combined. The rules of this site state this about abortion:

Abortion, adultery, premarital sex, and marijuana use may be discussed, but encouraging participation in these activities is not allowed.

It seems to me that defending the major purveyor of abortion is encouraging participation. It is odd to me that fellow Christians would voice such support and defense. It seems to me that many reduce the graveness of that sin so that they can be more comfortable casting a vote that supports it.

Lord have Mercy on us

I have heard Dr Wayne Grudem make a similar point about Constantine. Grudem has several insightful videos on Youtube clearly explaining why Christians should vote for Donald Trump. On his website is "30 GOOD THINGS PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE FOR AMERICA"

 

[jgarden]

I have heard Dr Wayne Grudem make a similar point about Constantine. Grudem has several insightful videos on Youtube clearly explaining why Christians should vote for Donald Trump. On his website is "30 GOOD THINGS PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DONE FOR AMERICA"

Christianity has demonstrated repeatedly that throughout history it has been far more successful when it comes to enduring outside persecutions, as opposed to weathering the trials and tribulations of that far more insidious adversary known as "success!"

The Bible provides numerous accounts whereby His people blindly accepting the messages of those "false prophets" telling them only what they wanted to hear - while either ignoring or prosecuting those tasked with delivering the hard truths that God wanted them to know!

 

[tulc]

Tulc, there is no way to measure how many moms decided to keep their babies alive because of the efforts of prolife people, people that have never even been to a march. If and when Planned Parenthood lives up to their name and actually prevents abortions, I would be thrilled, not galled. It is estimated that there has been 1.5 BILLION abortions since 1980. That's more lives that the population of China. It is the atrocity of the century. That's why Biden was refused communion by a good priest.

Actually, screaming out in front of a clinic, marching around, waving signs and calling anyone who votes for someone "not on the approved lists" bad names? That does nothing. Having access to education, contraceptives and health care? Those things bring abortion rates down. And that's what Planned Parenthood does. The difference is, the Republican Party knows those things cost money, where as screaming and marching is cheap. That way the money can instead be donated to support "pro-life candidates" and fill Republican coffers. So the "Anti-abortion" crowd tends to go for the cheaper idea and then they can just pretend to be "willing to do anything to fight abortion!!".
tulc(is going to need more coffee soon)

 

[creslaw]

Christianity has demonstrated repeatedly that it can withstand persecution - a far more insidious challenge is weathering the trials and tribulations that come with "success" and the "false prophets" telling us what we want to hear rather than the hard truths that God wants us to know!

The Bible provides many examples of God's prophets being persecuted because His people were only willing to accept the "good news" being promoted by "false" prophets!

Are you insinuating that Dr Wayne Grudem is a false prophet because he supports a Conservative platform?

 

[jgarden]

Are you insinuating that Dr Wayne Grudem is a false prophet because he supports a Conservative platform?

When Christians and their leaders, no matter how well-intentioned, chose to become too closely associated with secular leaders by suggesting they are following God plan, they've started down a "slippery slope" that never ends well and brings their religion into disrepute!

I'm sure the Almighty is relieved that this President has diverted $ billions from social programs back to military spending and that He would us place our faith in "The Wall" to protect the nation from those "brown-skinned" hordes of looters and rapists - posing as destitute women and children!

 

[creslaw]

When Christians and their leaders, no matter how well-intentioned, chose to become too closely associated with secular leaders by promoting them as chosen by God, they have started down that "slippery slope" that never ends well and brings their faith into disrepute!

Since I was particularly referring to Dr Wayne Grudem's position, I can only say you have misrepresented what he says.

 

[timothyu]

Having access to education, contraceptives and health care? Those things bring abortion rates down. And that's what Planned Parenthood does.

Was watching European news tonight about the abortion protests in Poland. A great number of signs read 'we want to be able to have sex'. They weren't masking their truths and see abortions as a convenience to self serve rather than be responsible.

 

[jgarden]

Since I was particularly referring to Dr Wayne Grudem's position, I can only say you have misrepresented what he says.

So here is a question for my fellow Christians: If you believe (as I do) that God is sovereign over the affairs of nations, do you think that Donald Trump’s presidency has been an evidence of divine blessing or divine judgment? I admit that perceiving divine purposes in human events is a task that cannot be proved with certainty one way or another, but when I look over this list of 30 actions, it appears to me to be far more characteristic of divine blessing than of divine judgment.
- Dr. Wayne Grudem

Grudem's article doesn't even make an attempt to be objective - his uncritical, "blanket" endorsement of " all things Trump" places him as just another in a long line of conservative religious leaders who are undermining the intentions of the Founding Fathers by deliberately choosing to cross the line that separates Church and State!

 

[creslaw]

So here is a question for my fellow Christians: If you believe (as I do) that God is sovereign over the affairs of nations, do you think that Donald Trump’s presidency has been an evidence of divine blessing or divine judgment? I admit that perceiving divine purposes in human events is a task that cannot be proved with certainty one way or another, but when I look over this list of 30 actions, it appears to me to be far more characteristic of divine blessing than of divine judgment.
- Dr. Wayne Grudem

Grudem's article doesn't even make an attempt to be objective - his uncritical, "blanket" endorsement of " all things Trump" places him as just another in a long line of conservative religious leaders who are undermining the intentions of the Founding Fathers by deliberately choosing to cross the line that separates Church and State!

There is a ring of superiority in your words that is rather unpleasant. You of course are objective but a man of Dr Grudem's proven intellectual integrity is not? A little of Grudem's humility might not go astray.

"So here is a question for my fellow Christians: If you believe (as I do) that God is sovereign over the affairs of nations, do you think that Donald Trump’s presidency has been an evidence of divine blessing or divine judgment? I admit that perceiving divine purposes in human events is a task that cannot be proved with certainty one way or another, but when I look over this list of 30 actions, it appears to me to be far more characteristic of divine blessing than of divine judgment."
- Dr. Wayne Grudem​