Trump, Gianforte, and Political Devolution

[dgiharris]

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
Do you believe Political discourse is regressing instead of progressing?
Are we in an era where facts and logical arguments just don't matter?
Should the strategy be to just use emotional arguments and logical fallacies?
Your thoughts on how we have arrived at our current political situation in the US?

So, after body slamming a reporter, Gianforte still wins
Republican Greg Gianforte wins Montana special election, CNN projects - CNNPolitics.com

I have always held the belief that "the truth will set you free".

So I've spent thousands of manhours on the web fighting the good fight, crafting political arguments, exposing flawed logic, destroying logical fallacy arguments, putting forth new ideas, proposing solutions, etc. etc.

And in the end, none of that matters.

Hard truth is, it just doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe and could care less about the facts. Or put more precisely, too large a percentage of the public is just unpersuaded by facts.

A Congressional candidate assaults a reporter and his base rushes to defend the indefensible:

• ... "Well, you don't know what really happened so you can't judge"
• ... "the reporter was "aggressively" shoving a recorder in his face so he had to defend himself"
• ... "Hillary Clinton emails and Obama is a Muslim Communist!!!!!"

Trump's administration has conducted itself in such a way that there is "reasonable suspicion" warranting investigation and Trump Supporters rush to defend the indefensible:

• ..."All negative news is fake news"
• ..."the real problems are the leakers not the actual leaks (despite validity of the leaks)"
• ..."he shoots straight from the hip so whatever he does is okay"
• "Hillary Clinton emails and Obama is a Muslim Communist!!!!"

Perhaps the next stage in politics is just a step backwards. Instead of arguing facts perhaps we'd be better served crafting emotional arguments and using logical fallacies.

Fact, member of Congress assaults a journalist. Assault even confirmed by the ULTIMATE SOURCE OF TRUTH by GOP standards, Fox News... and in the end, it just didn't matter.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
Do you believe Political discourse is regressing instead of progressing?
Are we in an era where facts and logical arguments just don't matter?
Should the strategy be to just use emotional arguments and logical fallacies?
Your thoughts on how we have arrived at our current political situation in the US?

 

[mark kennedy]

Partisan politics is getting highly emotive rhetoric, while substantive discussion is getting buried. Daily we are getting indications collusion and obstruction but the Trump base is unaffected. Clinton was determined to play to her base while the real issues that could have gotten her elected, the economy, health care and warnings about the dangers of deregulation were only superficially addressed. These discussions are mired in highly emotive mud slinging on both sides while rich lawyers on capitol hill continue to raid our treasury.

I think we are in a downward spiral, no indication that the situation will improve anytime soon.

 

[rambot]

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
Do you believe Political discourse is regressing instead of progressing?
Are we in an era where facts and logical arguments just don't matter?
Should the strategy be to just use emotional arguments and logical fallacies?
Your thoughts on how we have arrived at our current political situation in the US?

So, after body slamming a reporter, Gianforte still wins
Republican Greg Gianforte wins Montana special election, CNN projects - CNNPolitics.com

I have always held the belief that "the truth will set you free".

So I've spent thousands of manhours on the web fighting the good fight, crafting political arguments, exposing flawed logic, destroying logical fallacy arguments, putting forth new ideas, proposing solutions, etc. etc.

And in the end, none of that matters.

Hard truth is, it just doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe and could care less about the facts. Or put more precisely, too large a percentage of the public is just unpersuaded by facts.

A Congressional candidate assaults a reporter and his base rushes to defend the indefensible:

• ... "Well, you don't know what really happened so you can't judge"
• ... "the reporter was "aggressively" shoving a recorder in his face so he had to defend himself"
• ... "Hillary Clinton emails and Obama is a Muslim Communist!!!!!"

Trump's administration has conducted itself in such a way that there is "reasonable suspicion" warranting investigation and Trump Supporters rush to defend the indefensible:

• ..."All negative news is fake news"
• ..."the real problems are the leakers not the actual leaks (despite validity of the leaks)"
• ..."he shoots straight from the hip so whatever he does is okay"
• "Hillary Clinton emails and Obama is a Muslim Communist!!!!"

Perhaps the next stage in politics is just a step backwards. Instead of arguing facts perhaps we'd be better served crafting emotional arguments and using logical fallacies.

Fact, member of Congress assaults a journalist. Assault even confirmed by the ULTIMATE SOURCE OF TRUTH by GOP standards, Fox News... and in the end, it just didn't matter.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
Do you believe Political discourse is regressing instead of progressing?
Are we in an era where facts and logical arguments just don't matter?
Should the strategy be to just use emotional arguments and logical fallacies?
Your thoughts on how we have arrived at our current political situation in the US?

It's interesting that violence coming from the right is either coming from the leaders or as an invocation FROM the leaders. Violence from the left, generally seems more grass roots.
For the record, I don't support either.

But yes, definitely has been devolving. Truly, I kinda think it started with Clinton's sex scandal and just ballooned from there; with each president getting a worse and worse. But with that said, the problem is about 99% the parties and how they are trying to manage their messaging to the public I think.

Let me be clear, I REALLY don't think this is a partisan issue at ALL. BOTH parties are equally culpable for the regrettable state of debate in the US right now, though maybe for slightly different reasons.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I always knew Obama was a commie Muslim…

 

[Rion]

So I've spent thousands of manhours on the web fighting the good fight, crafting political arguments, exposing flawed logic, destroying logical fallacy arguments, putting forth new ideas, proposing solutions, etc. etc.

And in the end, none of that matters.

No, it doesn't. At all. If you're arguing politics, it is either to sharpen your own intellect and ideas, to trash post, or because you're highly tribalistic about your team. Otherwise, you're going to just end up basically spitting in the wind.

Hard truth is, it just doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe and could care less about the facts. Or put more precisely, too large a percentage of the public is just unpersuaded by facts.

A large percentage of the people in general, including elected officials, the media, and every other figure people hold in high regard are the same. Perhaps you intended to include those in your comment, but I just wish to make sure you understand it is a human problem, not a John Q. Public problem alone.

A Congressional candidate assaults a reporter and his base rushes to defend the indefensible:

• ... "Well, you don't know what really happened so you can't judge"
• ... "the reporter was "aggressively" shoving a recorder in his face so he had to defend himself"
• ... "Hillary Clinton emails and Obama is a Muslim Communist!!!!!"

Trump's administration has conducted itself in such a way that there is "reasonable suspicion" warranting investigation and Trump Supporters rush to defend the indefensible:

• ..."All negative news is fake news"
• ..."the real problems are the leakers not the actual leaks (despite validity of the leaks)"
• ..."he shoots straight from the hip so whatever he does is okay"
• "Hillary Clinton emails and Obama is a Muslim Communist!!!!"

I find it highly interesting that you start out stating this:

I have always held the belief that "the truth will set you free".

And then proceed to use this in your post.

In regards to the Montana guy, you have a situation where the media, including the Guardian, has become a dumpster fire of tabloid news over the years, and you can't understand why, when they report on an actual event in response to a group they've been lying about and smearing for years, suddenly people dismiss it?

Personally, I believe it because when you listen to the audio, and the reporter says he was bodyslammed and his glasses broken, no one else in the room argues it. They don't say "No you weren't, you got shoved and fell over, pansy" or some other such comment. However, I can't say I'm surprised that people just assumed it was another lie.

As for the Trump bit, there's still no evidence, they had to do a lot of stretching to justify an independent council. I have laid out multiple times, linked to multiple articles, and yet the left still acts like there's even anything slightly solid in regards to evidence. Heck, even Maxine Waters has said there's no actual proof yet.

In fact, aren't you the one who kept claiming that Trump's administration was unprecedented in regards to behavior, etc. If that was you, I remember pointing out at least twice that there's plenty of Presidents who've done a lot worse. Rather than change your stance, you just stopped discussing it with me.

Perhaps the next stage in politics is just a step backwards. Instead of arguing facts perhaps we'd be better served crafting emotional arguments and using logical fallacies.

It's been this way for quite some time.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
Do you believe Political discourse is regressing instead of progressing?
Are we in an era where facts and logical arguments just don't matter?
Should the strategy be to just use emotional arguments and logical fallacies?
Your thoughts on how we have arrived at our current political situation in the US?

Yes
We're way past that point.
The evolving strategy seems to be increasing violence, sadly.
My analysis of how we got here would probably trigger some folks.

 

[mark kennedy]

I always knew Obama was a commie Muslim…

Obama is most likely an atheist and his entire career he was pretty much a centrist. There are some social issues where he veers hard left but theres no real indication of being communist and he is certainly none that he muslim

 

[OldWiseGuy]

"Body-slammed", really?'

Gianforte After Winning House Seat: 'I'm Sorry' For Body-Slamming A Reporter

Scroll down for funny video.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I have always held the belief that "the truth will set you free".

I agree. Many know the truth, and so are free from thinking about these questions except to be amused by them. The truth regarding the subject matters that have been politicized is so far removed from the discourse that it is not relevant. Political discourse is not only absurd, but insane.

 

[Hank77]

Your thoughts on how we have arrived at our current political situation in the US?

imho, There are people who have been working on bringing it to this place for a few decades, it didn't just happen, it was planned.

 

[dgiharris]

....Let me be clear, I REALLY don't think this is a partisan issue at ALL. BOTH parties are equally culpable for the regrettable state of debate in the US right now, though maybe for slightly different reasons.

I firmly believe that both sides of the isle are definitely culpable and responsible and I will leave it at that because any further discussion concerning fault is a red herring.

I also realize I used examples from the Right however that is what is currently topical right now.

In regards to the Montana guy, you have a situation where the media, including the Guardian, has become a dumpster fire of tabloid news over the years, and you can't understand why, when they report on an actual event in response to a group they've been lying about and smearing for years, suddenly people dismiss it?

This belief that news from a "source" is all automatically untrue is part of the problem.

I hate Fox News. I loathe them with a passion I could rant about for pages on end. However, when I hear something on Fox News, I believe it "UNTIL" I find a credible source that refutes it. Otherwise, I will take it as news.

However, I feel many on the Right do not do that. All news is fake news. All news is Tabloid news, unless it comes from Fox News.

I also realize how horrifically bad human memory is. Because I hate Fox News I remember plenty of false Fox News stories and narratives and my inclination is to want to say "See, Fox News is bad therefore I can disregard anything I hear from Fox News..." However, the truth is my perception is biased because I'm human.

*Sigh*

I will just say that the current trend of extremists on either side instantly "dismissing " reports from sources they don't like is part of the problem.

If you want the truth, it is my belief you have to listen to the left and the right and then use logical deduction to surmise the real truth. You have to engage your brain and read between the lines and detangle yourself from emotion and not fall for logical fallacies and obfuscation.

 

[MoonlessNight]

We regularly have political riots, now including groups of masked individuals who specifically seek to severely injure their opponents to the maximum extent possible. People have been sent to the hospital, city blocks have been put to fire.

Yeah, we're past the point where calm discussion is going to settle this. You're just now noticing this?

 

[MoonlessNight]

This belief that news from a "source" is all automatically untrue is part of the problem.

Do you read every story that people link to from Breitbart, LifeSiteNews or InfoWars before you cast a judgment bout whether it is true or false?

 

[cow451]

Obama is most likely an atheist and his entire career he was pretty much a centrist. There are some social issues where he veers hard left but theres no real indication of being communist and he is certainly none that he muslim

How boring. If "the media"and it's critics acted like you we'd have to switch to swapping recipes.

 

[mark kennedy]

How boring. If "the media"and it's critics acted like you we'd have to switch to swapping recipes.

If they did governance right it would be boring, if it gets interesting or exciting your doing it wrong.

 

[Abraxos]

"Body-slammed", really?'

Gianforte After Winning House Seat: 'I'm Sorry' For Body-Slamming A Reporter

Scroll down for funny video.

lol I was thinking of the John Cena theme song.

 

[cow451]

If they did governance right it would be boring, if it gets interesting or exciting your doing it wrong.

And this administration is one thrill after another.

 

[mark kennedy]

And this administration is one thrill after another.

It's been said that he is a fascist but I doubt seriously this guy will ever get the trains to run on time.

 

[cow451]

It's been said that he is a fascist but I doubt seriously this guy will ever get the trains to run on time.

He can't be something he can't spell.

 

[mark kennedy]

He can't be something he can't spell.

That's actually a back handed slam with some merit. Does this guy read anything, as far as I can tell he gets everything from TV.

 

[cow451]

That's actually a back handed slam with some merit. Does this guy read anything, as far as I can tell he gets everything from TV.

Twitter is for people that can't write. Twitter was made for this President