True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[ToBeLoved]

Who was the teacher for these believers?

"But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him" (1 John 2:27).

According to this verse above, did they have a need for any man to teach them? Yes, or no?


...

Are you self taught?

I actually said that very early on in our conversation and I think now more than ever it is true.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hello OpenHeart.

I would disagree with what you stated OpenHeart.

You said
The Bible never states that anyone is saved by their faith. What the Bible does say is written below.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith...

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified
as a gift by His grace.

We are saved by Grace first and foremost and not by faith.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is what Jesus gave us by dying for our sins so we could come to Him for salvation. We did nothing to deserve it, it was only because of the unmerited favor of God.

We come to Jesus through faith. Faith is what Jesus Christ asks of us to believe in Him and what He did for us.

 

[nobdysfool]

However, unlike most Annihilationists or those who hold to Conditional Immortality, I am a Dualastic Conditionalist. This means that I believe hell is a very real and literal place. So I believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is a very real and literal story told by Jesus Christ Himself (that gives us a glimpse of what the afterlife is like for the wicked when they die). This hell will be cast into the lake of fire and be destroyed (after the Judgment). For the Scriptures say the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Salvation, eternal life, or immortality is a gift that can only be found by abiding in Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve were not originally created as immortal beings. They needed to eat of the Tree of Life in order to become immortal. But that never happened. Man never became immortal. God kept man away from that tree in the Garden.....

Rev 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This one passage topples your idea of eventual annihilation. it is clear who is being spoken of here: those who worshiped the beast and his image, and received the mark of his name . people, not angels.

 

[ToBeLoved]

However, unlike most Annihilationists or those who hold to Conditional Immortality, I am a Dualastic Conditionalist. This means that I believe hell is a very real and literal place. So I believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is a very real and literal story told by Jesus Christ Himself (that gives us a glimpse of what the afterlife is like for the wicked when they die). This hell will be cast into the lake of fire and be destroyed (after the Judgment). For the Scriptures say the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Salvation, eternal life, or immortality is a gift that can only be found by abiding in Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve were not originally created as immortal beings. They needed to eat of the Tree of Life in order to become immortal. But that never happened. Man never became immortal. God kept man away from that tree in the Garden.


....

I really need verses for all that. I'm sure you do not mind since it is the basic tenants of your belief.

Another question is how do you know that they never ate from the Tree of Life? We know that they were kicked out of the Garden after sin, but what verses show that they never ate from the Tree of Life.

Also, what do you mean by "God kept man away from that tree in the Garden"?

Is that how you explain Adam and Eve being forced to leave the Garden and that it was protected by someone so they couldn't get back in?

Because that is not really the same as what you said. You said "God kept them away ..."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm sure you believe in "Bible only" and "Save by faith alone" which are the hall marks of Protestantism. Non-denominationalism is a protestant thing. You can't be a Christian without being part of one of the three branches. If you are outside the three branches, you are by definition a heretic. I don't think you are a heretic.

I do believe in Sola Scriptura because it is based on the testimony of Scripture itself. If you care to look at my points in Scripture, you can check that out here.

As for saved by faith alone: Well, actually I do not believe in the popular Protestant teaching of Sola Gracia or Sola Fide alone. Their version of grace is a cheap version of grace that allows for a person to think one is saved even they abide in unrepentant sin in certain cases (or according to some Protestants, they can sin all the time and be saved). I also do not believe in their version of Sola Fide (faith alone) because it is a faith that is a mere belief alone. They believe God directed works are not a necessary part of their salvation. But then again, they think salvation is like a magical wish or super power or something. When salvation is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). For they believe they can be out of fellowship with Christ and be saved. But it doesn't work like that.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

But that is not the reality we see in Scripture, though. Nowhere does Scripture ever say that a believer's sins are different than unbeliever's sins salvation wise. Your belief is just something you have latched onto that was invented by others.


....

WHAT?

A believer has salvation from their sins through the blood of Jesus Christ.

An unbeliever DOES NOT have that.

An unbeliever does not have the forgiveness of sin because they lack the faith to be saved in the first place.

Dude, do you not see how great of an injustice you have done yourself by not understanding the basic tenants of the Bible.

Your branches sway with the wind, every time the wind blows.

 

[Meowzltov]

Trust me. Not all protestants believe in saved by faith alone unto heaven. Most believe saved by faith alone at the point of conversion

Ah see now you have hooked me into an interesting conversation. Even us Catholics believe it is faith alone at conversion. But then there is the question of whether "saved" refers ONLY to conversion or not.

Catholics use the word "saved" to refer to the whole journey, the Christian walk we lead that brings us ever closer to Him. Protestants usually use the word "sanctification" for this. It has only been through the past half century of formal dialogue that we have come to realize we are talking about the identical thing but just using different terms.

Thus, I have no problems switching back and forth between "saved" and "sanctified" when I'm posting in CF. I'm wondering if that is where you are at as well, that you use the word "saved" to refer to the journey????

 

[Meowzltov]

No. Non-denominational churches are not under the umbrella of Protestant churches. They are called Non-denominational because they are not wanting to be attached to any labels

LOL You may personally hate labels, but non-denoms don't avoid labels, I'm sorry to inform you. All a non-denominational church is, is a church which is not responsible to a higher denominational body -- they are independent churches. That's it. As for labels, they can be pentecostal; they can be fundamentalist; they can be evangelical; they can be arminian; they can be holiness; I have a good friend who is that pastor of a non-denominational church and hers is into the wealth and prosperity nonsense--yet another label. The one label they ALL share is that they are certainly ALL PROTESTANT.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello OpenHeart.

You stated the following.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is what Jesus gave us by dying for our
sins so we could come to Him for salvation. We did nothing to deserve it, it
was only because of the unmerited favor of God. We come to Jesus through
faith. Faith is what Jesus Christ asks of us.

Not sure that faith is something that Jesus asks of us?

Faith is in fact, a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is gifted to us.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness.

1 Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another
the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by
the same Spirit.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think
more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound
judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Our salvation is a free gift by Grace, and so our faith is also a gift from above.

Once again, we are saved by Grace only.

Romans 4
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace.

Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction
by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Romans 5
15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the
grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound
to the many.

Saved by Grace alone is certainly the fundamental doctrine of the scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

LOL You may personally hate labels, but non-denoms don't avoid labels, I'm sorry to inform you. All a non-denominational church is, is a church which is not responsible to a higher denominational body -- they are independent churches. That's it. As for labels, they can be pentecostal; they can be fundamentalist; they can be evangelical; they can be arminian; they can be holiness; I have a good friend who is that pastor of a non-denominational church and hers is into the wealth and prosperity nonsense--yet another label. The one label they ALL share is that they are certainly ALL PROTESTANT.

Yup. That's true. Non-denominational don't report to a higher denominational body. These are usually Bible-based churches from my experience, but you are right Open Heart and they are definately protestant.

 

[sdowney717]

Yes, saved by grace because He was merciful to us.
If you believe that then it is not much of a stretch to also believe we must be born again first to enter the kingdom second, so the regeneration spoken of here is not our will but His will.

Titus 3New King James Version (NKJV)
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Which agrees this word with John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And John 3
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

His Holy Spirit goes to whomever He chooses and they are regenerated first before they are saved, before they enter the kingdom of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hello OpenHeart.

You stated the following.

Not sure that faith is something that Jesus asks of us?

Faith is in fact, a fruit of the Holy Spirit that is gifted to us.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness.

1 Corinthians 12
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another
the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by
the same Spirit.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think
more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound
judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Our salvation is a free gift by Grace, and so our faith is also a gift from above.

Once again, we are saved by Grace only.

Romans 4
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace.

Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction
by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Romans 5
15 For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the
grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound
to the many.

Saved by Grace alone is certainly the fundamental doctrine of the scripture.

Wrong.


Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction
by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Romans 4
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace.

 

[sdowney717]

Wrong.


Romans 5
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through
our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction
by faith into this grace in which we stand.

Romans 4

16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace.

Titus 3
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

What comes first, faith or is it really grace?
It is grace first then faith, since God extends to us the grace to believe by the gift of faith.

 

[Meowzltov]

Hello OpenHeart.

I would disagree with what you stated OpenHeart.

Are you saying you believe that works plays a part in salvation?

 

[Meowzltov]

Hello OpenHeart.

You stated the following.

Grace is unmerited favor. Grace is what Jesus gave us by dying for our
sins so we could come to Him for salvation. We did nothing to deserve it, it
was only because of the unmerited favor of God. We come to Jesus through
faith. Faith is what Jesus Christ asks of us.

I think a mistake has been made. I don't remember writing this, and I don't usually define Grace as "unmerited favor."

 

[gtmyers]

So much has been said here. It's really not all that complicated. it makes no sense that it would be this complicated.

We were dead in Christ unable to save ourselves and even unable to reach out to god. But God in his mercy reached out to us and caused the blind to see. He changed us when we first believed but he did it. We heard the gospel and believed it. But he caused us to believe through the hearing of the gospel. Once saved though it's not as if we can continue life without him. We can't. It's a growing process through prayer and reading the word as we grow each day. We are saved, we are being saved, and ultimately are saved when we pass from this life to the next. We are still sinners but we are growing in him each day while walking this earth. He will never leave or forsake us. Daily I walk with him. But we war against the flesh daily too. If we sin he is Faithful and just to forgive our sin.

 

[Meowzltov]

But then again, they think salvation is like a magical wish or super power or something. When salvation is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). For they believe they can be out of fellowship with Christ and be saved. But it doesn't work like that.

Some Protestants think that, but not all Protestants. For example, the Methodists, the Nazarenes, many Baptists, basically your assundry Arminian denominations including Arminian non-denominational churches all believe you can fall from grace and loose your salvation. Oh and don't forget the Lutherans.

 

[Meowzltov]

I also do not believe in their version of Sola Fide (faith alone) because it is a faith that is a mere belief alone. They believe God directed works are not a necessary part of their salvation.

Do you believe that Works plays a part in becoming saved, or just plays a part in staying saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Titus 3
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

What comes first, faith or is it really grace?
It is grace first then faith, since God extends to us the grace to believe by the gift of faith.

Faith being a fruit of the Spirit does not happen until after we have been saved by Jesus Christ because we do not have the Holy Spirit until after salvation.

So, each of us must exhibit faith in our own right that is not part of the fruit of the spirit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is the verse before that?

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Just like someone needs to LISTEN and BE CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit about their sin, the same thing is true for teaching. I do not believe that you are open to being taught by the Holy Spirit because you've already decided that you know all there is to know.

1 Corinthians 2:14
…13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one

No. You said who (as in what man teaches me). You did not appear to be aware of 1 John 2:27 until I pointed it out to you. For our real teacher is God and not men. The trick to tell if someone is false or true is by their fruit. Jesus talks about this in Matthew 7.


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