• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

Status
Not open for further replies.

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That's not proof of anything. One, why should I trust this guy over the Word of God? Two, there are a lot of people who do not understand certain false beliefs that people push into the Bible. That does not make those false beliefs true. In other words, I see your view of Justification as a false belief; And like other false beliefs, many are simply unaware of them.


...
Therefore no one WILL(present tense) be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin rom 3:20
Notice Paul is speaking in the present tense. He cannot therefore be speaking solely of a righteousness concerning the mosaic law, for you acknowledge the christian is not under the mosaic law unto righteousness.
Paul must be speaking of the whole law as he states through the law we become conscious of sin, that has to mean the whole law.
The proof your views are incorrect Is all over the nt Jason. Yet you will resolutely refuse to accept anything that removes a law of righteousness from the christian
There can only be one reason. In your heart you want a righteousness of your own before God
God wants people who acknowledge in their hearts they cannot attain to such a righteousness, as king David did:
Do not bring your servant into judgement, for NO ONE living is righteous before you Psalms143:2
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,910
...
✟1,334,729.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Therefore no one WILL(present tense) be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin rom 3:20
Notice Paul is speaking in the present tense. He cannot therefore be speaking solely of a righteousness concerning the mosaic law, for you acknowledge the christian is not under the mosaic law unto righteousness.
Paul must be speaking of the whole law as he states through the law we become conscious of sin, that has to mean the whole law.
The proof your views are incorrect Is all over the nt Jason. Yet you will resolutely refuse to accept anything that removes a law of righteousness from the christian
There can only be one reason. In your heart you want a righteousness of your own before God
God wants people who acknowledge in their hearts they cannot attain to such a righteousness, as king David did:
Do not bring your servant into judgement, for NO ONE living is righteous before you Psalms143:2
Romans 3:20 is talking about the deeds of the Law in reference to the Old Law. Romans 3:1 says what advantage does the Jew have? What profit is there in circumcision? Nowhere does Paul say the New Testament Commands that Jesus and himself have given have been abrogated (For even Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments - 1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also elsewhere lists certain grevious sins several times and tells the brethren to be not deceived into thinking that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God.

As Psalm 143:2, David said elswhere in the Psalms that he hides His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalm 119:11). So I highly doubt he had a view of Justification like you did. I encourage you to be honest with yourself in what that chapter as a whole is declaring. I do not see any immorality (i.e. unrepentant sin) being swept under the carpet because of God’s righteousness. David is concerned with protection from his enemies. David's enemies are no doubt unrighteous. David is pleading to God to have mercy on him and not to deal him into the hands of his enemies. David is making his case that he seeks after God's righteousness and his good ways. David is saying that no one apart from God can be declared righteous. It is only abiding in God and His good ways by which we can stand and be delivered from our enemies (who may at times appear outwardly righteous).



...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 3:20 is talking about the deeds of the Law in reference to the Old Law. Romans 3:1 says what advantage does the Jew have? What profit is there in circumcision? Nowhere does Paul say the New Testament Commands that Jesus and himself have given have been abrogated (For even Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments - 1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also elsewhere lists certain grevious sins several times and tells the brethren to be not deceived into thinking that the unrighteous will inherit the Kingdom of God.

As Psalm 143:2, David said elswhere in the Psalms that he hides His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalm 119:11). So I highly doubt he had a view of Justification like you did. I encourage you to be honest with yourself in what that chaptet as a whole is declaring. I do not see any immorality (i.e. unrepentant sin) being swept under the carpet because of God’s righteousness. David is concerned with protection from his enemies. David's enemies are no doubt unrighteous. David is pleading to God to have mercy on him and not to deal him into the hands of his enemies. David is making his case that he seeks after God's righteousness and his good ways. David is saying that no one apart from God can be declared righteous. It is only abiding in God and His good ways by which we can stand and be delivered from our enemies (who may at times appear outwardly righteous).



...
I have been honest Jason. David knew no one could be truly righteous in Gods sight by observing the law for no one could attain to the pass mark to be righteous before God under it which as all should know is 100% perfect obedience.
Once again your exegesis of rom ch3 is completely wrong.
But it is all linked you see. You do not understand the justification / sanctification process of the christian for you do not understand what Paul means when he consistently states the christian is not under a law of righteousness
I would encourage you to come in humility before God and seek the truth, but I wonder I you would never accept it, for to you such a belief would be a rock of offence
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,910
...
✟1,334,729.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have been honest Jason. David knew no one could be truly righteous in Gods sight by observing the law for no one could attain to the pass mark to be righteous before God under it which as all should know is 100% perfect obedience.
Once again your exegesis of rom ch3 is completely wrong.
But it is all linked you see. You do not understand the justification / sanctification process of the christian for you do not understand what Paul means when he consistently states the christian is not under a law of righteousness
I would encourage you to come in humility before God and seek the truth, but I wonder I you would never accept it, for to you such a belief would be a rock of offence
If you are not under any kind of law salvation wise whatsoever, then how do you not see that as God endorsing sin? For you said believers who hold to your view obey God and do not do not do a bunch of horrible sins. But you also said believers will be found as sinners. Would that not include horrible sins like hate, adultery, lying, etc.? Would it be okay for a believer to murder every once and a while? Does God's grace just cover that? In other words, I see you're view as thinking as justifying a little bit of sin is okay with God versus say justifying a lot of sin. Therein is just one the many red flags that goes up in regards to your belief.



...
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If you are not under any kind of law salvation wise whatsoever, then how do you not see that as God endorsing sin? For you said believers who hold to your view obey God and do not do not do a bunch of horrible sins. But you also said believers will be found as sinners. Would that not include horrible sins like hate, adultery, lying, etc.? So I see you're view as thinking as justifying a little bit of sin is okay with God versus say justifying a lot of sin. Therein is just one the many red flags that goes up in regards to your belief.



...
You dont understand the truth of Paul's Gospel message Jason. You have actually poured scorn on the heart of it regretfully. Your constant queries as to why Paul's message is not a licence to sin shows you continually neglect the fact the new covenant has two core components, not one. This is born out by the fact you still cannot give me your personal opinions as to what it means to be born again and have the law placed on your heart and mind. You simply do not understand the covenant. I am only left with two options concerning why you fo not. Either satan is blinding you to it, or you in your heart want the credit for your salvation. God knows which is the truth
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,910
...
✟1,334,729.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You dont understand the truth of Paul's Gospel message Jason. You have actually poured scorn on the heart of it regretfully. Your constant queries as to why Paul's message is not a licence to sin shows you continually neglect the fact the new covenant has two core components, not one. This is born out by the fact you still cannot give me your personal opinions as to what it means to be born again and have the law placed on your heart and mind. You simply do not understand the covenant. I am only left with two options concerning why you fo not. Either satan is blinding you to it, or you in your heart want the credit for your salvation. God knows which is the truth
Even though you say a person does not have a license to sin, you have yet to convince me that this is not the case. You said before that a believer in certain cases can die in unrepentant serious sin like drunkenness and still be saved. How is that not a licence to sin?


...
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Even though you say a person does not have a license to sin, you have yet to convince me that this is not the case. You said before that a believer in certain cases can die in unrepentant serious sin like drunkenness and still be saved. How is that not a licence to sin?


...
I have already answered previously the questions you are putting up. I sm sure it is plain to all you simply ignore the answers and keep posting the same questions
Because you cannot refute scripturally what you are being told but are determined to reject
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,910
...
✟1,334,729.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
For if say folks are not under any law whatsoever salvation wise and yet you forget to add that little detail about how believers generally appear to obey God then you are in fact giving people the wrong impression and handing them a licence to sin. How can you not see that? For in our discussions, I have not seen you promote the believer in doing any kind of goodness for God. It is always about how you are not under the moral law salvation wise and how you are not perfect and we are found as sinners.




...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For if say folks are not under any law whatsoever salvation wise and yet you forget to add that little detail about how believers generally appear to obey God then you are in fact giving people the wrong impression and handing them a licence to sin. How can you not see that? For in our discussions, I have not seen you promote the believer in doing any kind of goodness for God. It is always about how you are not under the moral law salvation wise and how you are not perfect and we are found as sinners.




...

But you see Jason, I have always stated the new covenant comes in two parts, and have been careful to explain what they both are. Unlike you who appear unable to give any personal opinions as to what it means to be born again, or have the law placed on your heart and mind.
When both core components are explained we see there can be no licence to sin. But as you do not understand one of the core components you are left without understanding of the new covenant at its core, which is why you refuse to accept Paul's message of the justification/sanctification process
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Even though you say a person does not have a license to sin, you have yet to convince me that this is not the case. You said before that a believer in certain cases can die in unrepentant serious sin like drunkenness and still be saved. How is that not a licence to sin?


...

Though I have previously addressed this point, thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so again.

Suppose someone stumbles into a church service one night. They have been an alcoholic for thirty years, a habitual thief, who has been in and out of prison, they swear like a trooper and have had constant affairs. Now it is unlikely many would join a church with your beliefs who have lived such a life, you, you would expect them to perform perfect almost immediately or doubtless you would tell them they were in dangers of the fires of hell.
Now suppose such a person accepted Pauls message and set out on the Christian walk. They are seeking to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness by faith in Christ, not works of the law(as you believe)
They immediately cease stealing, determine to have no more affairs, even the foul language immediately starts to lessen, so evidence of their being born again is already plain to see. But the drinking is not so straight forward, the person has been its slave for many a year. According to Pauls message they are earnestly trusting Christ for the victory over alcoholism, for they desperately want to be free of it. But as I keep telling you, Paul tells us this crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness takes time, it is not instantaneous. If, before the man sees victory over alcohol by faith in Christ he is run over by a bus and dies, what happens. In these circumstances he dies in a saved state.
Discernment should show a Christian there is a huge difference between a person seeking to be set free from something they are a slave to by faith in Christ during the crossing over period, and wilfull deliberate sin committed once a person has been set free of an addiction. Unfortunately Jason you do not have such discernment for all you can see is the literal letter.
As I have previously told you. Anyone following the true path of Grace and therefore understanding the justification/sanctification process of the Christian will be set free from alcohol addiction by following the truth of that Gospel message. Providing they do not die during this crossing over period
Now as I know you will ask me the same question in a day or two I will simply copy/paste this response back up when you do so!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For if say folks are not under any law whatsoever salvation wise and yet you forget to add that little detail about how believers generally appear to obey God then you are in fact giving people the wrong impression and handing them a licence to sin. How can you not see that? For in our discussions, I have not seen you promote the believer in doing any kind of goodness for God. It is always about how you are not under the moral law salvation wise and how you are not perfect and we are found as sinners.




...

Folks are not under a law of righteousness whatsoever for they only have one righteousness before God, Jesus. Only Jesus death at Calvary can make a Christian acceptable to the Father, not works of the law as you believe.

Rom1:17, Rom 3:20-22, Rom 3:28, Gal 2:21, Phil 3:9, Rom 10:4, Rom 6:14, Rom3:31, Rom 7:4-6. Etc
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For if say folks are not under any law whatsoever salvation wise and yet you forget to add that little detail about how believers generally appear to obey God then you are in fact giving people the wrong impression and handing them a licence to sin. How can you not see that? For in our discussions, I have not seen you promote the believer in doing any kind of goodness for God. It is always about how you are not under the moral law salvation wise and how you are not perfect and we are found as sinners.




...
Actually, as you keep stressing this point concerning alcohol, and me believing in a licence to sin under grace I will once again post a chapter of a book in repudiation of your false assertions concerning myself
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Crossing over


A man stumbles into a church service one night in a desperate state. The years of drunken revelry, sleeping with woman after woman and constantly seeking to gratify the flesh have caught up with him. He is broken, alone and in despair. He would never have thought of entering a church, believing it could offer no hope for someone such as he, but for some reason he was irresistibly drawn to enter the building. He feels uncomfortable as he walks through the door. Churches aren’t for people like him but for those who have lived decent, upright lives, people who have pure hearts and minds, people who have not been corrupted as he has been by the world. To his great surprise, however, when the altar call is given, he stumbles forward to accept Christ as his Saviour.

A kindly old man chats with him after the service. He tells him a battle will now follow so that he can see victory over the sin he is a slave to. The man tells him this victory can only be won, however, by looking to Jesus and trusting that He died for him. That is the only righteousness he can have before God. The new convert considers this a very strange battle to be in, with strange rules that don’t make sense, but there is something about this kindly old man that makes the new convert trust him. He has so much love for him, a filthy rotten sinner, it exudes from every part of the man sitting next to him. The man gives the new convert a few simple scripture verses and advises him to place them in rooms in his home. Then when the battle becomes difficult, he can look to them and gain strength. The new convert takes them, along with a New Testament the old man gives him.

He walks away from the church, slightly bemused. His life has been in a terrible state for years. He is a habitual thief who has spent time in prison, he is a slave to alcohol, he swears like a trooper, and he has had many affairs. For a long time he has been desperate for a way out, but never once dreamed of turning to God. He’d imagined he would have had to live an almost perfect life or God would have cast him into hell. He was too weak for that. He had no strength left. He was broken from living a life steeped in the worst of sin. Yet now this old man was telling him all he had to do was trust Jesus. That would decide the battle ahead.

So the man starts out on his walk. As we previously discussed, some sin the new convert can immediately stop, for it has not tied itself so tightly around him that he is a slave to it. So this man determines not to steal again, which immediately brings positive fruit from his new found Christian walk. He also determines there will be no more affairs. Even the bad language immediately starts to lessen, so evidence of his change of heart by being born again is already plain to see.

The drinking is not so straightforward, however; he has been its slave for many a year. A couple of days after the man gets saved, he is sitting at home in the evening. All of a sudden a huge desire for alcohol comes over him. He has a drink, hoping to satisfy the craving, but it doesn’t. His conscience hurts him as he pours the second drink, but the pull of alcohol is fierce. By the time he takes the third drink, he is not thinking so clearly because the alcohol is having an effect. Eventually he drinks far too much before stumbling into bed.

When he wakes in the morning, he feels anguish in his heart. Things were going so well, but now he has let God down. A voice whispers in his head, You’d better give up with God, for Christians cannot go around drinking as you did last night. You can’t stop being a slave to sin and get where you need to be if you drink like that. The man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable. He knows he cannot cross over to where he needs to be if he continues to drink as he did the night before. He remembers, however, the old man telling him the night he got saved that only one thing could make him acceptable in God’s sight − faith in His Son − and that would bring him the victory. So despite his sorrow for how he acted, he determines to trust in this truth rather than dwell on his failure. It isn’t easy to do, but he perseveres. He looks to Jesus and trusts he is still saved. The voice in his head tells him he is just faking his Christianity, but the man determines to keep looking to Christ and carries on in the faith.

A couple of days later the same thing happens. The man drinks far too much and wakes up in great sorrow for his actions the night before. The voice inside his head tells him he will have to give up on Christianity now. God may have forgiven him once for drinking too much, but he won’t a second time. If he remains a Christian, he is making a mockery of the faith. He is as good as promoting sin. Once again, the man pauses. The voice sounds reasonable and logical.

He rings the kindly old man who spoke to him the night he got converted and truthfully tells him about his drinking and the voice inside his head. To his amazement the man tells him not to worry because he’s winning the battle, and Satan must be getting worried if he’s accusing him that much. He reminds him he must keep looking to Jesus and trusting he is saved because Jesus died for him, and not look to his imperfections and failures. He puts the phone down, surprised by the man’s words, though reassured by what he told him. Once again, however, he considers this battle to have strange rules that don’t seem logical at all. He has to fight his natural reasoning and understanding to hold onto faith in Christ.

For a time the lapses continue where alcohol is concerned. After each occasion, the man wakes in the morning feeling terrible because he drank so much the night before. Each time, the voice inside his head increases its accusations: “You’re just a hypocrite”; “You’re faking your Christianity”; “You can’t be a Christian and drink as you do.” Despite the accusations, however, the man clings to Christ. He trusts what the old man told him the night he was saved.

After a time something startling happens; the man finds he is becoming more able to resist the alcohol. Bit by bit he is able to markedly resist his drinking. Eventually the amount he drinks is so little it has no adverse effect on him at all. He is thrilled. That kindly old man in church was right; he was seeing the victory by faith in Christ. He praises God for what He has done for him, through Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Cont
With his mind now free from thinking about alcohol, however, another weakness is unleashed. All of a sudden his mind is flooded with impurity. A voice whispers in his ear: “You can’t be a Christian and have thoughts like that; you’re just faking it.” Satan plants a few scripture verses in the man’s head to endorse this view, for he is not averse to quoting scripture out of context when it suits him. For a second the man pauses. The voice in his head again sounds reasonable. He cannot ignore what scripture plainly states. But then he looks at the scripture verse the old man gave him that is pinned on his wall: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” He is grateful for those words and looks to Jesus, trusting he is still saved and not condemned.

The voice inside his head once again tells him he’s a hypocrite and just fooling himself, but he won’t be swayed. He has seen the victory over alcohol by faith and trusts he will have victory over the impure thoughts, as well. For a time the impure thoughts flood his mind. He keeps looking to Jesus, clinging to Him as a limpet clings to a rock. He holds onto what the man told him. He only has one righteousness in God’s sight, faith in His Son. As the battle rages, however, the voice inside his head is relentless: “You’re a hypocrite”; “You’re just faking your Christianity”; “You’re weak”; “You’re useless”; “You’re too dirty and rotten to be saved”; “You have to be pure to be a Christian, not like you are. You’re just a sinner.”

“Yes, I am a sinner!” the man finally cries out in anguish. “But Jesus died for sinners!” All of a sudden the room gets very quiet. The only sound is the traffic outside on the street. He can’t hear the voice in his head anymore; it has gone strangely quiet. The man is grateful and keeps looking to Jesus. He has gone too far now to turn back. He suddenly knows he will keep trusting no matter what happens, for Jesus is all he has. He is in a boat with Jesus, and he can only sink if Jesus sinks. The impure thoughts start to lessen, and the man is surprised by how quickly this is happening. He is seeing the victory, just like he saw victory over alcohol. By now, all his bad language has also ceased.

Satan realises this man will not be swayed from trusting Jesus died for him, so he is forced to give up, move on, and try to find someone else to devour. He will return at times to see how the man is doing and fire some arrows at him, but he has lost the main battle. He only had one thing to begin with to try to turn the sincere-of-heart convert away, and it didn’t work. Satan uses the good and holy laws of God to try to make a convert feel condemned.

The man is not perfect in the flesh. He will be a work in progress all his life, for he lives in a body of weak flesh. By faith in Christ, however, he has crossed over from offering himself as a slave of sin, to offering himself as a slave of righteousness, which leads to holiness.

Now, friend, what kind of man do you think will emerge from that battle? Well we know he won’t be a proud man, for he never won the battle; Jesus did. He just stood by faith in Him. He will love God greatly for changing a sinner such as he. He will know the great love, mercy, and compassion of God, and he will want to tell others of what God has done in his life. He will witness of the grace he has received. He will be a merciful person, for he has obtained great mercy. He will want to be faithful, for he knows God has loved him much, forgiven him much, and delivered him from the pit he was in.

Now that man never looked to the law and strove to obey it. He looked to Jesus and trusted Him. By doing so, the higher points of the perfect, holy, and righteous law of God are now evident in his life.

He was involved in the same high-stakes battle as the young man from the previous chapter, but the young man hinged everything on trying to defeat the sin (a work of the law), whereas this man hinged everything on trusting Jesus. The young man, therefore, got excited about the sin, whereas this man got excited about Jesus. The young man had followed the way of Paul the Pharisee, this man, the way of the Gospel that Paul the Christian preached in Romans 6:14: “ For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (through faith).” (NIV)
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,820
✟368,295.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If you are not under any kind of law salvation wise whatsoever, then how do you not see that as God endorsing sin? For you said believers who hold to your view obey God and do not do not do a bunch of horrible sins. But you also said believers will be found as sinners. Would that not include horrible sins like hate, adultery, lying, etc.? Would it be okay for a believer to murder every once and a while? Does God's grace just cover that? In other words, I see you're view as thinking as justifying a little bit of sin is okay with God versus say justifying a lot of sin. Therein is just one the many red flags that goes up in regards to your belief.



...
But.

If one follows what Jesus said is the most important commandment which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, you don't think that loving God like that makes it so we do not want to sin?

I think that you should think about your own love for God because if you were loving the Lord in this way you would not be amazing and find it odd that we do it all out of love.

This is very bad, because Jesus said this is the MOST important commandment.

How do you think that Jesus feels about that? You not honoring what He told you is the GREATEST commandment for us to follow.

Do not patronize us because we do it all out of love and want to please our Lord. We are doing what Jesus commanded us to do.
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But.

If one follows what Jesus said is the most important commandment which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, you don't think that loving God like that makes it so we do not want to sin?

I think that you should think about your own love for God because if you were loving the Lord in this way you would not be amazing and find it odd that we do it all out of love.

This is very bad, because Jesus said this is the MOST important commandment.

How do you think that Jesus feels about that? You not honoring what He told you is the GREATEST commandment for us to follow.

Do not patronize us because we do it all out of love and want to please our Lord. We are doing what Jesus commanded us to do.
There is no love in a Gospel message that states. Perform almost perfect as soon as you get saved or you are in danger of the fires of hell
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,820
✟368,295.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
For if say folks are not under any law whatsoever salvation wise and yet you forget to add that little detail about how believers generally appear to obey God then you are in fact giving people the wrong impression and handing them a licence to sin. How can you not see that? For in our discussions, I have not seen you promote the believer in doing any kind of goodness for God. It is always about how you are not under the moral law salvation wise and how you are not perfect and we are found as sinners.
...
When I talk to new believers or try to bring someone to salvation the most important thing I talk to them about is prayer. Because that is the first link to having a relationship with God. To walking in your life spiritually WITH God, rather than FOR God.

We have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we have the mind of Christ all of this is what Jesus died to give us. That relationship, God with us. God indwelling us.
 
Upvote 0

stuart lawrence

Well-Known Member
Oct 21, 2015
10,527
1,627
67
✟86,135.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When I talk to new believers or try to bring someone to salvation the most important thing I talk to them about is prayer. Because that is the first link to having a relationship with God. To walking in your life spiritually WITH God, rather than FOR God.

We have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we have the mind of Christ all of this is what Jesus died to give us. That relationship, God with us. God indwelling us.
Don't you tell them unless they immediately perform perfect they are in danger of the fires of hell?
Shame on you!!!!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,686
7,910
...
✟1,334,729.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
But you see Jason, I have always stated the new covenant comes in two parts, and have been careful to explain what they both are. Unlike you who appear unable to give any personal opinions as to what it means to be born again, or have the law placed on your heart and mind.
When both core components are explained we see there can be no licence to sin. But as you do not understand one of the core components you are left without understanding of the new covenant at its core, which is why you refuse to accept Paul's message of the justification/sanctification process
That really does not address the concerns that I have. Are you found as a sinner? Do you not believe 1 John 1:8 teaches that to say you have no sin is to deceive yourself? What kind of sin are we talking about here? Why do you not see it being a problem in giving half the message at times? (i.e. one half of the mesage being that a belief in Jesus is all you need to be saved - and the other half is saying that born again believers exhibit obedience and they do not abide in tons of horrible sins).

For me, if I was in your position, I would make sure that EVERY time I mention that a person is justified by just having a belief in Jesus alone, I would stress that obedience must be the outward showing of their faith in being born again. Why? Because if you don't (which I have seen you say at times), then you are giving people a license to sin. But see, why should truth half preached lead someone into error? It doesn't make sense. God's good ways will always lead a person into holiness and righteousness and not unrighteousness if you only preach one part of the message as you have done at times. That's one of the many reasons why I have a problem with your belief.


...
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,820
✟368,295.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
For if say folks are not under any law whatsoever salvation wise and yet you forget to add that little detail about how believers generally appear to obey God then you are in fact giving people the wrong impression and handing them a licence to sin. How can you not see that? For in our discussions, I have not seen you promote the believer in doing any kind of goodness for God. It is always about how you are not under the moral law salvation wise and how you are not perfect and we are found as sinners.

...
Who is righteous and just to convict a sinner of their sin? Who indwells each one of us?

John 16:8
8 And when he comes, he will nconvict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.