True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

I am tired of you putting words in my mouth and accusing me of what I have not stated. Once again, produce vthe post where I stated what you have accused me of in the emboldened.
Thou shalt not bear false witness is one of the3 moral laws, a law you feel free to break whenever you wish and try to make excuses for doing so. That is hypocrisy Jason, what Jesus said was the yeast of the pharisees

So we didn't argue before over how the Law of Moses is more than just the 10?

See this post here:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...itional-security.7914686/page-5#post-68787906

Okay.

You are ducking responding to my last post concerning Heb 9:26 despite you saying you would respond to all my points. The bible is a big book, anyone can find a scripture to try and make it contradict another one, but it is not a wise thing to do

I already provided a verse again just recently to give it the context. Hebrews 5:9.


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[stuart lawrence]

I have previously put the following up before Jason, pleased read the posts:

Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a]'>[a]’

4 ‘How can someone be born when they are old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!’

5 Jesus answered, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb]'>[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, “Youc]'>[c] must be born again.” 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a]'>[a]’

4 ‘How can someone be born when they are old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!’

5 Jesus answered, ‘Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spiritb]'>[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, “Youc]'>[c] must be born again.” 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.
. John 3:3-8

We see in the following the wind blows wherever it pleases but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going So it is with everyone born(again) of the Spirit

Under the old covenant you were born into it. If you were a physical Israelite, you were under the covenant. It is ridiculous to say bearing that in mind the description Jesus gives of those who are born again in verse 8 could apply to a Jew under the old covenant. Jesus is talking to nicodemus of the new covenant not the old one
Ye must be born again under the new covenant otherwise you would have a licence to sin, as I keep telling you

 

[stuart lawrence]

So we didn't argue before over how the Law of Moses is more than just the 10?

See this post here:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...itional-security.7914686/page-5#post-68787906

Okay.



I already provided a verse again just recently to give it the context. Hebrews 5:9.


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You are still trying to justify putting words in my mouth Jason I have not said. Someone else has also noted you doing this. I think two of us cannot be mistaken.
So you like to not accept the plain scripture I bring forth but go to another scripture to give it the ''context'' However, you expect me to accept all your scriptures as written.
I understand Heb 9:26 you do not, that is why you refuse to accept what is plainly written

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For how many sins does it take for it to be considered wrong?

I am talking about serious and grevious sins here like murder, hate, lying, drunkenness, idolatry, etc.

Lying!!!!

Thou shalt not bear false witness Jason!!!

Not true. You said, I quote:

"...according to the Gospel message he is clinging to Christ and trusting him for that victory. Now it may well take time for him to see the victory he earnestly seeks, for Paul tells us this crossing over is not instantaneous. What if the man during this time drinks too much one night, gets run over by a bus on the way home and is killed. Do you think God will condemn him to hell? I do not."​

This is justifying a man dying in one sin he could have repented of, but God chose to take his life before He could repent of it. This means God was not happy with his sin and knew that this man's heart was going to go down the wrong road (that would have been destructive or counter productive to His good plan). For God cannot break His own Word. His Word says if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. When Ananias and Sapphira each lied to the Spirit they were instantly killed. Great fear fell upon the entire church and all who heard it. Now, if they were in heaven, why all the fear? Jesus says we are not to fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. If they were in heaven, and the church knew it, they would be sorrowful and not fearful. For believers, to die is to gain Christ.

The Bible says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In your view, such a verse does not really exist.

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[stuart lawrence]

.



I already provided a verse again just recently to give it the context. Hebrews 5:9.


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This is the context Jason!

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb 9:25&26

First he said, ‘Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them’– though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, ‘Here I am, I have come to do your will.’ He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy Heb 10:8-14

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are still trying to justify putting words in my mouth Jason I have not said. Someone else has also noted you doing this. I think two of us cannot be mistaken.
So you like to not accept the plain scripture I bring forth but go to another scripture to give it the ''context'' However, you expect me to accept all your scriptures as written. I understand Heb 9:26 you do not, that is why you refuse to accept what is plainly written

Well, first, you kept continually telling me what I believed when I did not believe those things. Second, please show me where I said something that you do not believe and I will be happy to apologize and retract such a statement. So far you have not really said anything in regards to that matter.


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[stuart lawrence]

Not true. You said, I quote:

"...according to the Gospel message he is clinging to Christ and trusting him for that victory. Now it may well take time for him to see the victory he earnestly seeks, for Paul tells us this crossing over is not instantaneous. What if the man during this time drinks too much one night, gets run over by a bus on the way home and is killed. Do you think God will condemn him to hell? I do not."​

This is justifying a man dying in one sin he could have repented of, but God chose to take his life before He could repent of it. This means God was not happy with his sin and knew that this man's heart was going to go down the wrong road (that would have been destructive or counter productive to His good plan). For God cannot break His own Word. His Word says if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. When Ananias and Sapphira each lied to the Spirit they were instantly killed. Great fear fell upon the entire church and all who heard it. Now, if they were in heaven, why all the fear? Jesus says we are not to fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. If they were in heaven, and the church knew it, they would be sorrowful and not fearful. For believers, to die is to gain Christ.

The Bible says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In your view, such a verse does not really exist.

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I take no pleasure in saying this, but I know you do not understand the Justification sanctification process of the Christian:

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith ind]'>[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17 ‘But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker Gal2:15-18

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, first, you kept continually telling me what I believed when I did not believe those things. Second, please show me where I said something that you do not believe and I will be happy to apologize and retract such a statement. So far you have not really said anything in regards to that matter.


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You have seen my recent posts Jason, you do not need to ask, just avoid evading answering

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not true. You said, I quote:

"...according to the Gospel message he is clinging to Christ and trusting him for that victory. Now it may well take time for him to see the victory he earnestly seeks, for Paul tells us this crossing over is not instantaneous. What if the man during this time drinks too much one night, gets run over by a bus on the way home and is killed. Do you think God will condemn him to hell? I do not."​

This is justifying a man dying in one sin he could have repented of, but God chose to take his life before He could repent of it. This means God was not happy with his sin and knew that this man's heart was going to go down the wrong road (that would have been destructive or counter productive to His good plan).
...

Please explain to me, if you can what Paul is saying in the following two verses. I do not believe you can explain them:

But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the context Jason!

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb 9:25&26

First he said, ‘Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them’– though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, ‘Here I am, I have come to do your will.’ He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy Heb 10:8-14

The point being made is that the Israelites had to offer the sacrfices continually for the SAME sins that were PAST. Scriptures says, the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin (i.e. meaning: - the OT safrices did not permanently atone for sin; They were only a temporary covering of sin). Jesus's one time sacrifice makes it possible so that the believer or the saint would not need to keep offering sacrifices over and over for the "same past sins."

For if a believer sins again there remains no more sacrifice for sins; For Hebrews 10:26 says, if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

This then leads into what John says. For John tells us to "sin not" but if we do sin we have an advocate named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

For he that confesses and forsake sins shall receive mercy (Proverbs 29:13).

But you would rather enter in some other way.


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[stuart lawrence]

Not true. You said, I quote:

"...according to the Gospel message he is clinging to Christ and trusting him for that victory. Now it may well take time for him to see the victory he earnestly seeks, for Paul tells us this crossing over is not instantaneous. What if the man during this time drinks too much one night, gets run over by a bus on the way home and is killed. Do you think God will condemn him to hell? I do not."​

This is justifying a man dying in one sin he could have repented of, but God chose to take his life before He could repent of it. This means God was not happy with his sin and knew that this man's heart was going to go down the wrong road (that would have been destructive or counter productive to His good plan). For God cannot break His own Word. His Word says if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. When Ananias and Sapphira each lied to the Spirit they were instantly killed. Great fear fell upon the entire church and all who heard it. Now, if they were in heaven, why all the fear? Jesus says we are not to fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. If they were in heaven, and the church knew it, they would be sorrowful and not fearful. For believers, to die is to gain Christ.

The Bible says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
In your view, such a verse does not really exist.

...

You said:

''This is justifying a man dying in one sin he could have repented of, but God chose to take his life before He could repent of it. This means God was not happy with his sin and knew that this man's heart was going to go down the wrong road (that would have been destructive or counter productive to His good plan).''

Please explain to me, if you can what Paul is saying in the following two verses. I do not believe you can explain them:

But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker

 

[stuart lawrence]

The point that is being made is that the Israelites had to offer the sacrfices continually for the SAME sins that were PAST. Scriptures says, the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin (i.e. meaning: - the OT safrices did not permanently atone for sin; They were only a temporary covering of sin). Jesus's one time sacrifice makes it possible so that the believer or the saint would not need to keep offering sacrifices over and over for the "same past sins."

For if a believer sins again there remains no more sacrifice for sins; For Hebrews 10:26 says, if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

This then leads into what John says. For John tells us to "sin not" but if we do sin we have an advocate named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

For he that confesses and forsake sins shall receive mercy (Proverbs 29:13).

But you would rather enter in some other way.


...

If a believer does not have to offer sacrifices for sins under the covenant they are in, why don't they? They had to keep offering them under the old covenant, for sin and sins committed in ignorance, no more sarifices for sin needed:


Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy Heb 10:8-14

 

[stuart lawrence]

The point that is being made is that the Israelites had to offer the sacrfices continually for the SAME sins that were PAST. Scriptures says, the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin (i.e. meaning: - the OT safrices did not permanently atone for sin; They were only a temporary covering of sin). Jesus's one time sacrifice makes it possible so that the believer or the saint would not need to keep offering sacrifices over and over for the "same past sins."

For if a believer sins again there remains no more sacrifice for sins; For Hebrews 10:26 says, if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

This then leads into what John says. For John tells us to "sin not" but if we do sin we have an advocate named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

For he that confesses and forsake sins shall receive mercy (Proverbs 29:13).

But you would rather enter in some other way.


...

I will respond to this once you have explained to me what Paul is saying in Gal2:16&17

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You said:

''This is justifying a man dying in one sin he could have repented of, but God chose to take his life before He could repent of it. This means God was not happy with his sin and knew that this man's heart was going to go down the wrong road (that would have been destructive or counter productive to His good plan).''

Please explain to me, if you can what Paul is saying in the following two verses. I do not believe you can explain them:

But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker

No. God cannot justify sinners who remain as sinners. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), and to believe on Jesus Christ is also a Commandment or Law (1 John 3:23).

Here is what Galatians says,

"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."

Again, this is talking from the perspective of trying to be justified by the Law of Moses alone. Circumcision is mentioned several times as being a problem in the book of Romans and Galatians. Paul is speaking from his enemy's perspective or those who obey the Law of Moses alone to be saved. For no doubt the Pharisees think the followers of Jesus Christ are sinners. So Paul asks the question: Are we "sinners" if we seek to be justified by Christ and not by the Law? Paul says, no.

Also, the New Living Translation says this on Galatians 3:18,

"Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down"​

So this is clearly talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses and not all Law whatseover.


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[Bible Highlighter]

If a believer does not have to offer sacrifices for sins under the covenant they are in, why don't they? They had to keep offering them under the old covenant, for sin and sins committed in ignorance, no more sarifices for sin needed:


Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy Heb 10:8-14

And you gotta keep reading. Verse 26 and verse 38.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You have seen my recent posts Jason, you do not need to ask, just avoid evading answering

No. I do not always see every post (Because we are writing a lot here). So I may have missed it. You are going to have to tell me what I said that you do not specifically believe. Then I will be happy to apologize.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. God cannot justify sinners who remain as sinners. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4), and to believe on Jesus Christ is also a Commandment or Law (1 John 3:23).

Here is what Galatians says,

"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."

Again, this is talking from the perspective of trying to be justified by the Law of Moses alone. Circumcision is mentioned several times as being a problem in the book of Romans and Galatians. Paul is speaking from his enemy's perspective or those who obey the Law of Moses alone to be saved. For no doubt the Pharisees think the followers of Jesus Christ are sinners. So Paul asks the question: Are we "sinners" if we seek to be justified by Christ and not by the Law? Paul says, no.

Also, the New Living Translation says this on Galatians 3:18,

"Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down"​

So this is clearly talking about the Old Testament Law of Moses and not all Law whatseover.


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Im sorry Jason but that is an awful response. You simply do not understand the justification/sanctification process of the Christian

Those verses clearly state while we seek justification in Christ it is evident we are sinners

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. I do not always see every post (Because we are writing a lot here). So I may have missed it. You are going to have to tell me what I said that you do not specifically believe. Then I will be happy to apologize.


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Read the posts pertaining to me saying you put words in my mouth, that will narrow it down

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Im sorry Jason but that is an awful response. You simply do not understand the justification/sanctification process of the Christian

Those verses clearly state while we seek justification in Christ it is evident we are sinners

Paul's reply to the question whether or not we are sinners is a.... "no."

So I agree with Paul.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Read the posts pertaining to me saying you put words in my mouth, that will narrow it down

Not going on a scavenger hunt (so as to sift thru the ton of posts that we had written). Give me post #'s or just re-write it here of what you think I said that you do not believe.


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