True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

I stated the nt church differentiated between the laws Jews followed and the laws gentiles were asked to follow. Do you deny that is the truth?

 

[stuart lawrence]

This still does not respond to the simple point made I am afraid

 

[stuart lawrence]

Well, for one, your belief is not consistent with the verses I brought forth. There are consequences to NOT loving. The believer is told they can either love or not love. They are given a choice. They are not mindless puppets programmed to love as their only choice. Nor are they programmed to generally love so as to endure to the End (Barely scraping by so as to enter the Kingdom of God). Actually, I thought of Matthew 22:36-40 as my next reply to you on this point. It really does not help you. For if you say you are not under any law (salvation wise), you are going to have to remove the fact that you are not under the two greatest commandments (Which is to love God and to love others). Before you talked of the 10 as being exclusive as being a part of the Old Law. But here, the disciples ask what is the greatest commandment in the Law. Jesus's repy was not from the 10. The two greatest laws were not new commandments Jesus was revealing to them about the Old Law. These two greatest commandments or laws were already in existence (See Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 10:12, Leviticus 19:17-18).

Also, Paul says the law of loving your neighbor is still in effect (Romans 13:8-10). Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Even you admitted that all the commands from the old hung on the two greatest commands. So all of God's Laws (even in the Old) were based on love. This is no different with God's Commands in the New Testament (Which applies to both the Jew and the Gentiles).

Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my Commandments (John 14:15).

Now, why would Jesus say this if He knew that a person will just automatically love and obey His commands by holding to your view of salvation? It does not make any sense. It would be useless to say such words to His people if they were to automatically do so.


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This is not responding to the simple point made as I told you previously

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I stated the nt church differentiated between the laws Jews followed and the laws gentiles were asked to follow. Do you deny that is the truth?

No. Please do not answer my questions with a question. Answer my questions first.


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[Bible Highlighter]

This is not responding to the simple point made as I told you previously

Post #'s.


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[stuart lawrence]

Jesus said a man cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Jesus said this during the Old Testament. Jesus meant what He said. Nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Yes, I am willing to be honest with the text and admit that in this instance in Ezekiel chapter 36 (i.e. Ezekiel 36:24-27), God's Word is saying that Israel will have a clean heart in the future. I believe God said this because they were being rebellious in the present. For God is wise who makes perfect choices and knows the future and realizes that one day His people (Israel) will one day repent and turn back to Him in the future. However, Ezekiel 36:24 does not speak for the present moment realities of God telling His people to be circumcised elsewhere in Scripture, though. For you deny all the other passages like:

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

In other words, you have to point out that there is a future reference like this to all the verses provided above here. But I don't think you will be able to do that, though. God is not a respecter of persons. God saves and operates the same thru out all time. Looking at others as being inferior is because we like to think we are better than others. Look again at the other passages in honesty (even as I have done with Ezekiel 36). For are you willing to be a man and admit when you might be wrong?


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Please reread my post on this subject in respect of deut10:16&deut30:6 the first speaks of what man must do, the second of what God will do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This still does not respond to the simple point made I am afraid

From where I am standing, it sounds like you just do not know how to explain the texts I brought forth.


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[stuart lawrence]

No. Please do not answer my questions with a question. Answer my questions first.


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If you wish me to put it as a statement I am more than happy to. The gentile converts were not asked to follow laws hews followed. Now if i answered you, do you agree with my statement or not?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please reread my post on this subject in respect of deut10:16&deut30:6 the first speaks of what man must do, the second of what God will do.

No. I am not going on a scavenger hunt, unless you can provided a Post # that reveals a verse that shows that God was talking exclusively in the future about being circumicised. If you know the Word of God, it should not be hard for you to post those verses here.


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[Bible Highlighter]

If you wish me to put it as a statement I am more than happy to. The gentile converts were not asked to follow laws hews followed. Now if i answered you, do you agree with my statement or not?

Sorry, that is not a clear enough answer. It still sounds a bit vague and fuzzy. Tell it to me straight. Are you saying that God's Word is asking Jewish Christians to follow different laws or commands than Gentile Christians? Yes, or no?

Do you believe the book of James and the book of Hebrews does not apply to Gentile Christians?


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[stuart lawrence]

From where I am standing, it sounds like you just do not know how to explain the texts I brought forth.


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Well I am on a mobile, but to be honest, I am not going to waste my Tim being bogged down with huge amounts of scripture you bring forth that clearly you misinterpret.
Deut10:16&duet30:6 are speaking of two different things and you seem unable to see it.
No one was born again under the old covenant. When I gain access to a computer later I will once again(as I did in a previous post) speak of john 3 to prove this

 

[stuart lawrence]

I never saud

Sorry, that is not a clear enough answer. It still sounds a bit vague and fuzzy. Tell it to me straight. Are you saying that God's Word is asking Jewish Christians to follow different laws or commands than Gentile Christians? Yes, or no?

Do you believe the book of James and the book of Hebrews does not apply to Gentile Christians?


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that. Before we go on, provide scripture to show I said Gods word adks hewish christians to observe laws gentiles were not asked to keep. Now please excuse me for a while it is my dinner time

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well I am on a mobile, but to be honest, I am not going to waste my Tim being bogged down with huge amounts of scripture you bring forth that clearly you misinterpret.
Deut10:16&duet30:6 are speaking of two different things and you seem unable to see it.
No one was born again under the old covenant. When I gain access to a computer later I will once again(as I did in a previous post) speak of john 3 to prove this

You don't have to copy and paste anything. You can just give me the verse numbers and I will post them here for all to see so we can discuss them. If you don't have a Bible to easily read on your device, there are some really good to read Bible apps.


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[ToBeLoved]

Interesting discussion guys.

I'm reading along.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never saud
that. Before we go on, provide scripture to show I said Gods word adks hewish christians to observe laws gentiles were not asked to keep. Now please excuse me for a while it is my dinner time

No. It is not up to me to answer your questions. You are being evasive with the truth here. Tell it to me straight.

Are you a Mid Acts Dispensationalist who believes there are two or more gospels?
Or do you just believe that certain books in the New Testament are not for Gentile Christians to obey (But are only for Jewish Christians)?

In any event: Enjoy your dinner and may God bless you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Interesting discussion guys.

I'm reading along.

Thank you.


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[stuart lawrence]

No. It is not up to me to answer your questions. You are being evasive with the truth here. Tell it to me straight.

Are you a Mid Acts Dispensationalist who believes there are two or more gospels?
Or do you just believe that certain books in the New Testament are not for Gentile Christians to obey (But are only for Jewish Christians)?

In any event: Enjoy your dinner and may God bless you.


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Bring forth my exact words in. A statement i made that you object to, and I will respond directly to it. Over to you. But it has to be only my words in the statement i am tired of you putting words in my mouth. Off you go

 

[Bible Highlighter]

However, we can go even further. Paul states:


And circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code Rom 2:29


What was the covenant of the written code? The old covenant

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

Note, the difference Paul is showing us between the two covenants. The new one is not according to the written code on tablets of stone, but by the spirit of the living God written on tablets of human hearts.

This is what you do not appreciate Jason. What being born again entails, what it brings. So the written code did not bring the Israelites circumcision of their hearts, but the Spirit does, for he places the law within us and leads us.


So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]'>[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6


The written code never brought hearts to be truly circumcised, but under the new covenant the Holy Spirit does, for we serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code(law)


I know you cannot accept this Jason, but it is a pity for you, you cannot, for you are hurting yourself by refusing to do so, no one else

But see, this only works if you ignore the majority of the New Testament, though. There are Commands written in the New Testament that have consequences in not obeying them. Where does it state that these Commands in the New Covenant that have serious after-life consequences have been now made obsolete? Why put forth New Testament Commands with bad after-life consequences just so as to undo them. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For why would Jesus scare us with telling us how our entire bodies can be cast into hell-fire if we look upon a woman in lust if there was no real threat in doing so? Is God a respecter of persons? Does Jesus say that a believer can do this on occasion (without worrying about) and yet not the unbeliever? Think about it.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Bring forth my exact words in. A statement i made that you object to, and I will respond directly to it. Over to you. But it has to be only my words in the statement i am tired of you putting words in my mouth. Off you go

Asking questions is not putting words in your mouth. I am merely trying ascertain what you believe. This is very difficult to know what you beleive if you will not answer my questions. For I will be fair fair in answering your questions about what I believe if you ask them. Why would you not do the same? It seems to me like not answering my questions appears like you have something to hide or to be ashamed of.

Yes, I do admit that I was jumping the gun before by saying you believed a saint can die in unrepentant sin (like: hate, lying, theft, etc.) and still be saved. But by your words you had written thus far up until that point, that is what it sounded like what you believed. I asked if you believe that, and you did not really answer me.

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[stuart lawrence]

Interesting discussion guys.

I'm reading along.

Here's what I think. Jew or gentile is saved by faith in Christ, not obedience to the law, so there is one salvation for all. However, I chatted to an Israelite who said out of love for God he tried to keep as much of torah as possible, while recognising it had no bearing on his salvation for that solely hinged on what Jesus did for him at Calvary. I thought that was a wonderful statement