True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

Or possibly you ard searching for any

Well, I have been doing some reading and have been praying about it, and I come to a new conclusion as of this date about Ezekiel's vision. I believe Ezekiel's vision of the Temple actually took place already. I believe that this temple was built at one time and everything detailed (including the talk of some prince and his family) and the animal sacrifices took place during the time of Israel's exile. The temple was merely destroyed (like Solomon's temple was destroyed). The timing of Ezekiel's vision of a Temple would then be under the Old Testament. This is important to understand because if that is the case (which I believe it is), then those who were uncircumcised in heart (unbelievers or those who did not have a new birth spiritually) could not enter the sanctuary or the temple. This then is yet another bread crumb of evidence that shows that believers thru out all points in time needed to be born again so as to enter the Kingdom of God.


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Possibly you are searching for any breadcrumb of evidence because....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While the old covenant was in existence Jesus said the law hung on two command. Love God and love your neighbour. It is the same now. Jesus teaching can be summed up as examples of love God and love your neighbour, Paul knew that, hence:
Carry each others burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ gal6:2

But some don't see this. They look to the literal letter of each and every command of Christ and stress you must obey them all while failing themselves to do what they insist of others. One very well known preacher said the beatitudes set a standard beyond the human to achieve. They show us how much we need jesus

And 1 John 3:15 is a command based on not loving. It says if one hates their brother (i.e. to not love), then they are a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So are you saying that no true believer has ever hated their brother even briefly for a moment? Also, the Scriptures say, he that does not love does not know God, for God is love (1 John 4:8). James says, "if ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:8-9).

1 John 3:17 - "But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?"

1 John 4:19-20 - "We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoe

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my Commandments (John 14:15).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Or possibly you ard searching for any
Possibly you are searching for any breadcrumb of evidence because....

No. I just read and believe the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:31 says, "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Who is getting a new heart and new spirit in the passage above?

Here is another one.

Acts 7:51 - "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Did you catch that? It says the fathers (of the Old Testament) were uncircumcised in heart and ears (i.e. not born again).

These uncircumcised individuals are being referenced as being in the past tense and not in some future world somewhere.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

And 1 John 3:15 is a command based on not loving. It says if one hates their brother (i.e. to not love), then they are a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. So are you saying that no true believer has ever hated their brother even briefly for a moment? Also, the Scriptures say, he that does not love does not know God, for God is love (1 John 4:8). James says, "if ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:8-9).

1 John 3:17 - "But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?"

1 John 4:19-20 - "We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoe

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my Commandments (John 14:15).


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How does this post respond to the law hanging on two commandments as it did under the old covenant?

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. I just read and believe the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:31 says, "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Who is getting a new heart and new spirit in the passage above?

Here is another one.

Acts 7:51 - "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Did you catch that? It says the fathers (of the Old Testament) were uncircumcised in heart and ears (i.e. not born again).

These uncircumcised individuals are being referenced as being in the past tense and not in some future world somewhere.


...

Yes I caught that . People under the old covenant were uncircumcised in their hearts(they were not born again)

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi Jason

I will address your insistence under the old covenant their hearts were circumcised and they were born again, and your scriptures of Duet 30:6 & Ezekiel 36:26&27 to try and prove that point. I do agree with you that Duet 30:6 & Ezekiel 36:26&27 are speaking of the same covenant.

Moses told the people:

Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. Deut 10:16

Note he is telling the Israelites what they must do.

Whereas in Deut 30:6 he states:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Notice the difference. The first statement tells the people what they must do, the second what God will do.

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations,2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunesa]'>[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut 30:1-6

Note in verses1-5 Moses has been prophesying the Israelites would be banished from the land. But though this will happen God will return them to it and bless them. It is after he says this he states God will circumcise their hearts. In Deut 10:16 Moses is telling the Israelites what they must do at the present time(under the old covenant), in 30:6 what God will do when the new covenant is in operation.

However, let us not just rely on one set of scriptures but seek for conformation:



24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Ezekiel36:24-27


Note the prophecy concerning the Israelites being brought back from exile to the land God gave Moses for them. The prophecy of verses 26&27 immediatley follows this. This is exactly the same as the prophecy of Moses in Deut 30:6 which immediately follows the Israelites restoration to the land, something that did not happen under the old covenant. The two are in unison. Both state God will circumcise their hearts, and put a new spirit in them after they have been returned to the land from exile, not at the present time

Under the old covenant the Israelites hearts were not circumcised, most of the time they rebelled against God, got into a mess, cried out to him and he rescued them. Then they rebelled again and again in an almost never ending cycle.

 

[stuart lawrence]

However, we can go even further. Paul states:


And circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code Rom 2:29


What was the covenant of the written code? The old covenant

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

Note, the difference Paul is showing us between the two covenants. The new one is not according to the written code on tablets of stone, but by the spirit of the living God written on tablets of human hearts.

This is what you do not appreciate Jason. What being born again entails, what it brings. So the written code did not bring the Israelites circumcision of their hearts, but the Spirit does, for he places the law within us and leads us.


So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]'>[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom 7:4-6


The written code never brought hearts to be truly circumcised, but under the new covenant the Holy Spirit does, for we serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code(law)


I know you cannot accept this Jason, but it is a pity for you, you cannot, for you are hurting yourself by refusing to do so, no one else

 

[stuart lawrence]

You also brought up the point of dying in unrepentant sins. Because of your rigid outlook according to the literal letter, it is hard for you to see most of the time beyond as very limited scope.
As You know, Paul speaks in Gal2:16&17 of a new convert seeking to cross over from being a slave of sin when they come to Christ, into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. He shows us in those verses this process takes time, it is not instantaneous. This crossing over from one state to the other happens by faith in Christ, not works of the law as Paul states.
Now suppose a man becomes a Christian. He swears like a trooper, is a habitual thief, has had affair after affair and is an alcoholic. We know according to Pauls words it will take time for this man to get to where he needs to be. Suppose he determines never to steal again, and to have no more affairs, even the bad language immediately starts to lessen so evidence of his being born again is plain to see. However, the drinking is not so simple, he is its slave. This man earnestly seeks the victory over alcohol, he is desperate to be free of it, and according to the Gospel message he is clinging to Christ and trusting him for that victory. Now it may well take time for him to see the victory he earnestly seeks, for Paul tells us this crossing over is not instantaneous. What if the man during this time drinks too much one night, gets run over by a bus on the way home and is killed. Do you think God will condemn him to hell? I do not.
Supposing the man lived, and was set free of all of the things I mentioned. One night he gets bored, goes to the pub and gets drunk once he has been released from his addiction to alcohol. This is now very different to him drinking while earnestly seeking the victory by faith in Christ of what he is a slave to. I hope you understand this.
What if the same man had been a Christian for a year, he had totally changed and been delivered from all I mentioned. He served God and was a wonderful witness of his grace and mercy. One night he learns his only child has been killed. In great sorrow he drinks far too much and gets drunk, a one off. If he died before he could sober up do you think God would condemn him to hell?
Suppose the same man I have mentioned did not change at all. He kept happily getting drunk having affair after affair, and ended up in prison for stealing, what then? He was never born again in the first place

 

[mercy1061]

I don't think Jesus intended that statement to be a positive one. Jesus instituted a New Covenant with his death. At the Wedding of Cana: The ceremonial washing containers used by the Jews that were once filled with water, had been turned into wine by Christ. At that moment, they could not use their old washing containers anymore because it had wine in it (Because of Jesus). They now had to go to the blood of Jesus (i.e. the new wine) so as to get cleansed.


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Did you know that Deut 10:16 and 30:6 are both part of the law of Moses? Therefore they are part of the old covenant, the reason for putting old wine in old wineskins is because the old wine tastes better , no one wants the new wine after they have tasted the old wine. (Luke 5:39). I guess you missed that because you failed to read the WHOLE verse, like you fail to keep the WHOLE Torah. You try so hard to manipulate the scriptures, to make them agree with you, but they do not! Do you not see that Duet 10:16 and Deut 30:6 are both in Torah? The bible NEVER says that Deut 10:16 is the old covenant but Deut 30:6 is the new covenant, wait a minute, both of them are from Moses the guy you don't follow, you only follow Christ? You are a walking contradiction, can't you see that both Deut 10:16 and 30:6 are both recorded in the OLD TESTAMENT!
Duet 10:16:and Deut 30:6 make love sound like a two way street, if you circumcise your heart, listen to what he says, he shall also circumcise your heart. Yeshua was right, the old wine taste so much better, wine increases in value as it gets older!

 

[JLB777]

Excellent passage brother. I love this one. Thank you.

Yes, I partly agree with you. I think in some instances the word "perfect" or it's related words is in reference to how you defined it above. A passage that would support this is:

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14).

Yet, there are going to be tears cried by some believers at the Bema Seat and loss of rewards. So not everyone is going to be 100% perfect. However, I also believe the word "perfect" in some cases means exactly that, though. For Jesus does call us to be 100% perfect as the Heavenly Father is 100% perfect. The Father is perfect because He is Holy and cannot sin. So Jesus sets the goal of perfection for us. God the Father. This is why we need a mediator betwen God and man. We cannot obey and or do the good things of God without a Savior. For Jesus died so as to cover our imperfections (or sins that do not lead unto death) and Jesus works in our hearts and lives so as to keep God's Commands under the New Covenant.

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On this I know we both agree, that we are called to be conformed to the image of His Son.

We are called to be transformed into the same image as Christ.

We are called to grow up into Him in all the fullness, to stature of a perfect man, complete in Him lacking nothing.

We are called to do the works that He did.


On these things, I agree with you.


Can we walk with God, living in unbroken fellowship, taking full advantage of the crucified life that we are all called to live?

Can we dwell in the secret place of the Most High?

Where is the secret place, and how do we dwell there, continually?

The answer would surely draw criticism.



JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

Did you know that Deut 10:16 and 30:6 are both part of the law of Moses? Therefore they are part of the old covenant, the reason for putting old wine in old wineskins is because the old wine tastes better , no one wants the new wine after they have tasted the old wine. (Luke 5:39). I guess you missed that because you failed to read the WHOLE verse, like you fail to keep the WHOLE Torah. You try so hard to manipulate the scriptures, to make them agree with you, but they do not! Do you not see that Duet 10:16 and Debt 30:6 are both in Torah? The bible NEVER says that Deut 10:16 is the old covenant but Debt 30:6 is the new covenant, wait a minute, both of them are from Moses the guy you don't follow, you only follow Christ? You are a walking contradiction, can't you see that both Deut 10:16 and 30:6 are both recorded in the OLD TESTAMENT!

Do you believe Gentile converts are required to obey the Mosaic law?

 

[mercy1061]

Do you believe Gentile converts are required to obey the Mosaic law?

Do you agree with the 10 commandments? Must we obey all ten of them?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you agree with the 10 commandments? Must we obey all ten of them?

Please don't answer my question with a question, please firstly answer my question, then I will answer yours

 

[mercy1061]

Please don't answer my question with a question, please firstly answer my question, then I will answer yours

I have already answered your question. Israel came out of Egypt as a mixed multitude, A mixed multitude followed Moses. Consequently I shall use Torah to answer your questions. The 10 commandments are part of a universal LAW.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I have already answered your question. Israel came out of Egypt as a mixed multitude, A mixed multitude followed Moses. Consequently I shall use Torah to answer your questions. The 10 commandments are part of a universal LAW.

Well Christs disciples, the Jerusalem church didn't expect gentile converts to follow all of the mosaic law did they(acts ch15) of the four laws mentioned for gentiles to be asked to follow, three of which are widely believed only to have been mentioned to appease Pharisees who had converted to the christian faith
As for the ten commandments themselves. It surprises me so many stress these as such. Under the new covenant the law God requires us to keep has been transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts.(2cor3:3) I can assure you the ten commandments are on my heart. The only slight difference I may have to you is, every day is my Sabbath, but that is fine according to an ex pharisee(rom14:5)

 

[mercy1061]

Well Christs disciples, the Jerusalem church didn't expect gentile converts to follow all of the mosaic law did they(acts ch15) of the four laws mentioned for gentiles to be asked to follow, three of which are widely believed only to have been mentioned to appease Pharisees who had converted to the christian faith
As for the ten commandments themselves. It surprises me so many stress these as such. Under the new covenant the law God requires us to keep has been transferred from tablets of stone to tablets of human hearts.(2cor3:3) I can assure you the ten commandments are on my heart. The only slight difference I may have to you is, every day is my Sabbath, but that is fine according to an ex pharisee(rom14:5)

If you are familiar with ancient Jewish law, then you know the office of Pharisee was equivalent to a US Supreme Court Judge, life appointment. There is no such thing as ex Pharisee, Saul the Pharisee was the son of a Pharisee, appointment by ancestry. I hope you understand the gentiles had to start observing Torah somehow or somewhere, why not give them a few rules at a time, the apostles didn't wish to overwhelm the new converts. Where is it written that the apostles told them to disregard or dishonor the rest of Torah? So why do you keep Sabbath daily? Must you work while it is day? When darkness comes no man can work?

 

[stuart lawrence]

But you

If you are familiar with ancient Jewish law, then you know the office of Pharisee was equivalent to a US Supreme Court Judge, life appointment. There is no such thing as ex Pharisee, Saul the Pharisee was the son of a Pharisee, appointment by ancestry. I hope you understand the gentiles had to start observing Torah somehow or somewhere, why not give them a few rules at a time, the apostles didn't wish to overwhelm the new converts. Where is it written that the apostles told them to disregard or dishonor the rest of Torah? So why do you keep Sabbath daily? Must you work while it is day? When darkness comes no man can work?

I cannot agree with you, for if you are right, the apostles gave gentile converts a licence to sin, for sin is transgression of the law. I don't believe they did that.
They differentiated between laws Jews kept and gentiles were asked to keep (acts21)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason

I will address your insistence under the old covenant their hearts were circumcised and they were born again, and your scriptures of Duet 30:6 & Ezekiel 36:26&27 to try and prove that point. I do agree with you that Duet 30:6 & Ezekiel 36:26&27 are speaking of the same covenant.

Moses told the people:

Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer. Deut 10:16

Note he is telling the Israelites what they must do.

Whereas in Deut 30:6 he states:

The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Notice the difference. The first statement tells the people what they must do, the second what God will do.

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations,2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunesa]'>[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. Deut 30:1-6

Note in verses1-5 Moses has been prophesying the Israelites would be banished from the land. But though this will happen God will return them to it and bless them. It is after he says this he states God will circumcise their hearts. In Deut 10:16 Moses is telling the Israelites what they must do at the present time(under the old covenant), in 30:6 what God will do when the new covenant is in operation.

However, let us not just rely on one set of scriptures but seek for conformation:



24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Ezekiel36:24-27


Note the prophecy concerning the Israelites being brought back from exile to the land God gave Moses for them. The prophecy of verses 26&27 immediatley follows this. This is exactly the same as the prophecy of Moses in Deut 30:6 which immediately follows the Israelites restoration to the land, something that did not happen under the old covenant. The two are in unison. Both state God will circumcise their hearts, and put a new spirit in them after they have been returned to the land from exile, not at the present time

Under the old covenant the Israelites hearts were not circumcised, most of the time they rebelled against God, got into a mess, cried out to him and he rescued them. Then they rebelled again and again in an almost never ending cycle.

Jesus said a man cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Jesus said this during the Old Testament. Jesus meant what He said. Nobody can enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Yes, I am willing to be honest with the text and admit that in this instance in Ezekiel chapter 36 (i.e. Ezekiel 36:24-27), God's Word is saying that Israel will have a clean heart in the future. I believe God said this because they were being rebellious in the present. For God is wise who makes perfect choices and knows the future and realizes that one day His people (Israel) will one day repent and turn back to Him in the future. However, Ezekiel 36:24 does not speak for the present moment realities of God telling His people to be circumcised elsewhere in Scripture, though. For you deny all the other passages like:

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

In other words, you have to point out that there is a future reference like this to all the verses provided above here. But I don't think you will be able to do that, though. God is not a respecter of persons. God saves and operates the same thru out all time. Looking at others as being inferior is because we like to think we are better than others. Look again at the other passages in honesty (even as I have done with Ezekiel 36). For are you willing to be a man and admit when you might be wrong?


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[Bible Highlighter]

But you
I cannot agree with you, for if you are right, the apostles gave gentile converts a licence to sin, for sin is transgression of the law. I don't believe they did that. They differentiated between laws Jews kept and gentiles were asked to keep (acts21)

So you believe Acts 21 teaches that Jewish Christians were to follow different laws than Gentile Christians? Do you believe the book of James and the book of Hebrews does not apply to you?


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How does this post respond to the law hanging on two commandments as it did under the old covenant?

Well, for one, your belief is not consistent with the verses I brought forth. There are consequences to NOT loving. The believer is told they can either love or not love. They are given a choice. They are not mindless puppets programmed to love as their only choice. Nor are they programmed to generally love so as to endure to the End (Barely scraping by so as to enter the Kingdom of God). Actually, I thought of Matthew 22:36-40 as my next reply to you on this point. It really does not help you. For if you say you are not under any law (salvation wise), you are going to have to remove the fact that you are not under the two greatest commandments (Which is to love God and to love others). Before you talked of the 10 as being exclusive as being a part of the Old Law. But here, the disciples ask what is the greatest commandment in the Law. Jesus's repy was not from the 10. The two greatest laws were not new commandments Jesus was revealing to them about the Old Law. These two greatest commandments or laws were already in existence (See Deuteronomy 6:5, Deuteronomy 10:12, Leviticus 19:17-18).

Also, Paul says the law of loving your neighbor is still in effect (Romans 13:8-10). Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Even you admitted that all the commands from the old hung on the two greatest commands. So all of God's Laws (even in the Old) were based on love. This is no different with God's Commands in the New Testament (Which applies to both the Jew and the Gentiles).

Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my Commandments (John 14:15).

Now, why would Jesus say this if He knew that a person will just automatically love and obey His commands by holding to your view of salvation? It does not make any sense. It would be useless to say such words to His people if they were to automatically do so.


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