True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[fhansen]

This is a great post. So I know you understand the way to holiness. So can I put something to you. If a minister preaches, you are saved by faith in Christ, but then they strongly infer heaven is attained by observing the law, will the convert stand on faith in christ to obey, or will they fixate on the literal letter and believe heaven hinges on striving to obey the law? It is a subtle difference isn't it, but It has huge inplications

Faith doesn't equal obedience, although it certainly is an obligation for all men. But it doesn't end there. Faith is the necessary beginning of our justification, because it establishes true relationship with God, apart from whom we can do nothing. From there He can do a work in us, of changing/molding, placing His law in our hearts and writing it on our minds. This work, of making us authentically just if we remain walking with Him in faith, is to transform us into His own image, the image of love. This is our justice, which is why the greatest commandments, which sum up the law, are what they are. And works flow naturally from this love. Basil of Cesarea, a 4th century beliver, put it this way:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

From 1 Cor 13:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing"

"Now these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."

 

[JLB777]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

And the Word of God says,

There is a balance.


Faith does not come by scripture, faith comes by hearing the word, Voice, of God.

If so, Saul of Tarsus would have been a great man of faith, rather than persecute the Church.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to pleaseHim, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker isGod.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. Hebrews 11:4-11


No scriptures had been written until Moses.

Abraham walked with God and obeyed, leaving for us an example of those who would come after him who would believe, thereby defining what it is to believe. Believe means obey.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

However, as I said, faith does not [necessarily] come from the scriptures.

Jesus said -

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40


As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. Romans 8:14


I like what you are saying, in this thread, and I'm in agreement with you, concerning OSAS.


God Bless you, and keep you.


JLB

 

[stuart lawrence]

Faith doesn't equal obedience, although it certainly is an obligation for all men. But it doesn't end there. Faith is the necessary beginning of our justification, because it establishes true relationship with God, apart from whom we can do nothing. From there He can do a work in us, of changing/molding, placing His law in our hearts and writing it on our minds. This work, of making us authentically just if we remain walking with Him in faith, is to transform us into His own image, the image of love. This is our justice, which is why the greatest commandments, which sum up the law, are what they are. And works flow naturally from this love. Basil of Cesarea, a 4th century beliver, put it this way:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

From 1 Cor 13:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing"

"Now these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love."

Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake Rom 1:5

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes. Both Covenants with it"s distinctive Commands or Laws is based on love. But if you ever study the Commands of the Bible (Which I am sure is something you would be uncomfortable with), you would see that the Old Covenant Commands and New Covenant Commands are very different from each other (except for God’s eternal moral laws).


...

The law God requires me to keep is written on my mind and placed on my heart Jason, is it not the same for you?

 

[fhansen]

This is a great post. So I know you understand the way to holiness. So can I put something to you. If a minister preaches, you are saved by faith in Christ, but then they strongly infer heaven is attained by observing the law, will the convert stand on faith in christ to obey, or will they fixate on the literal letter and believe heaven hinges on striving to obey the law? It is a subtle difference isn't it, but It has huge inplications

Yes, it does have huge implications. It's what divides the Old and New Covenants in fact. I would only say that, because we will struggle with sin, struggle to remain obedient all our lives, obedience being a good thing which justice demands, the law still serves its teaching purpose, of reminding us of how we fail at the righteousness that can only be achieved via faith, on the basis of faith. If presented in this manner, the preacher would be correct.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, it does have huge implications. It's what divides the Old and New Covenants in fact. I would only say that, because we will struggle with sin, struggle to remain obedient all our lives, obedience being a good thing which justice demands, the law still serves its teaching purpose, of reminding us of how we fail at the righteousness that can only be achieved via faith, on the basis of faith. If presented in this manner, the preacher would be correct.

I went to a Baptist church a while ago. The minister stood in the pulpit and said. Thirty years ago I became a Christian. I woke up the next morning with great assurance, for I knew I would go to heaven when I died

I chatted to a seventh day Adventist and told them I knew I would go to Heaven. They shook their head and replied. I cant say that.
The difference between the seventh day Adventist, and the minister and I was, we knew we would attain Heaven because of Christ's sacrifice for us at Calvary. The seventh day Adventist didn't know if they would obey the Ten Commandments well enough to attain Heaven

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is a balance.


Faith does not come by scripture, faith comes by hearing the word, Voice, of God.

If so, Saul of Tarsus would have been a great man of faith, rather than persecute the Church.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to pleaseHim, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker isGod.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. Hebrews 11:4-11


No scriptures had been written until Moses.

Abraham walked with God and obeyed, leaving for us an example of those who would come after him who would believe, thereby defining what it is to believe. Believe means obey.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

Faith without the work of obedience is dead.

However, as I said, faith does not [necessarily] come from the scriptures.

Jesus said -

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40


As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. Romans 8:14


I like what you are saying, in this thread, and I'm in agreement with you, concerning OSAS.


God Bless you, and keep you.


JLB

No. Being born again by water is in reference to how we received the seed of the Word into our hearts. See Ephesians 5:25-26 and the Parable of the sower. Also, Jesus talks about his words should abide within us. He also says men shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word of God that proceeds out of his mouth. The Bereans were more noble because they confirmed the spoken Word of God with the Written Word of God. For we are sanctified by the Word of truth. As for the Pharisees: Jesus was not putting down the Scriptures in leading men to God. He was saying the Scriptures testified of Him and they were missing it.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. I don't tell people to obey the 10 because only 9 out of the 10 have been repeated in the New Testament. The Sabbath Command is no longer binding (even though one can certainly observe it).

...

No one will obey the nine or ten commandments by concentrating on them and striving to obey them. I think I told you this before.
My mother whom I dearly loved was dying of cancer. My late wife and I went to look after her in her own home during her illness. During this time, I put aside my own desires, my happiness was seeing my mother happy. While we lived with my mother, I honoured her, I did not want to steal from her, nor lie about her, murder her or covet what was hers. Did I have to think of the Ten Commandments to act this way towards my mother? No! I never once thought of them where she was concerned. I acted that way because I loved her
Therefore, if you are looking to commandments other than the commandments of love, and striving to obey them, you obviously are not loving as you should. For love fulfils the law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I went to a Baptist church a while ago. The minister stood in the pulpit and said. Thirty years ago I became a Christian. I woke up the next morning with great assurance, for I knew I would go to heaven when I died

I chatted to a seventh day Adventist and told them I knew I would go to Heaven. They shook their head and replied. I cant say that.
The difference between the seventh day Adventist, and the minister and I was, we knew we would attain Heaven because of Christ's sacrifice for us at Calvary. The seventh day Adventist didn't know if they would obey the Ten Commandments well enough to attain Heaven

If someone were to ask me how I am saved now, I would tell them that is by Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Which leads me into paths of righteousness for His name sake). I would tell them that any good or work I do now comes from Christ working in me. I would tell them that Jesus is the source of my salvation (1 John 5:12); And because He lives in me, His works will be in my life for all to see.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

If someone were to ask me how I am saved now, I would tell them that is by Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Which leads me into paths of righteousness for His name sake). I would tell them that any good or work I do now comes from Christ working in me. I would tell them that Jesus is the source of my salvation (1 John 5:12); And because He lives in me, His works will be in my life for all to see.


...

Well, you could tell them you were initially saved at the point of conversion by Christ's death burial and resurrection. But you would have to tell them that since the day you got saved your right standing in God's sight is observing the law, not faith in Christ, for it can only be one or the other

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No one will obey the nine or ten commandments by concentrating on them and striving to obey them. I think I told you this before.
My mother whom I dearly loved was dying of cancer. My late wife and I went to look after her in her own home during her illness. During this time, I put aside my own desires, my happiness was seeing my mother happy. While we lived with my mother, I honoured her, I did not want to steal from her, nor lie about her, murder her or covet what was hers. Did I have to think of the Ten Commandments to act this way towards my mother? No! I never once thought of them where she was concerned. I acted that way because I loved her
Therefore, if you are looking to commandments other than the commandments of love, and striving to obey them, you obviously are not loving as you should. For love fulfils the law

You're not getting it. There are 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament. There are 613 Commands in the Old Testament. I seek to follow those Commands in the New. All men thru out time were justified by faith in God and were born again spiritually (Whereby God moved within them His good work for that particular Covenant they were under). No one was ever justified in law keeping alone. That is something the Pharisees invented.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

You're not getting it. There are 1,050 + Commands in the New Testament. There are 613 Commands in the Old Testament. I seek to follow those Commands in the New. All men thru out time were justified by faith in God and were born again spiritually (Whereby God moved within them His good work for that particular Covenant they were under). No one was ever justified in law keeping alone. That is something the Pharisees invented.


...

No you are not getting it. Love fulfils the law

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, you could tell them you were initially saved at the point of conversion by Christ's death burial and resurrection. But you would have to tell them that since the day you got saved your right standing in God's sight is observing the law, not faith in Christ, for it can only be one or the other

I am not under the Law of Moses. But even if you wanted to force the idea that Paul was talking about all laws such as the Commands given directly by Jesus and by the Lord's Commands thru the writings of Paul, I realize it is ultimately not me doing the "good work" but it is Christ within me. So I would not boast in anything I did.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No you are not getting it. Love fulfils the law

I already said this to you before by telling you to read Romans 13:8-10. But Paul never says that loving your neighbor fulfills the Sabbath or Circumcision. It's because these are ceremonial laws that have been nailed to the cross.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I am not under the Law of Moses. But even if you wanted to force the idea that Paul was talking about all laws such as the Commands given directly by Jesus and by the Lord's Commands thru the writings of Paul, I realize it is ultimately not me doing the "good work" but it is Christ within me. So I would not boast in anything I did.


...

If you are under a law of righteousness before God then how can you in your heart want no credit?
Let me make clear. No one since Adam has attained or will attain heaven based on observing the law for no one could ever meet the standard the law sets to be righteous under it-which is 100% perfect obedience. If anyone could have met that standard there would have been no need for Christ to die at calvary

 

[stuart lawrence]

I already said this to you before by telling you to read Romans 13:8-10. But Paul never says that loving your neighbor fulfills the Sabbath or Circumcision. It's because these are ceremonial laws that have been nailed to the cross.


...

I have debated with seventh day adventists. The official line is, they accept people who do not observe a Saturday Sabbath as Christians for they believe they sin in ignorance.
However, that is not possible. As I pointed out to a few, if God required a person to observe a Saturday Sabbath, that law would have to be written on their mind and placed on their heart. Therefore a person would have to be conscious they were sinning before God by not observing it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you are under a law of righteousness before God then how can you in your heart want no credit?
Let me make clear. No one since Adam has attained or will attain heaven based on observing the law for no one could ever meet the standard the law sets to be righteous under it-which is 100% perfect obedience. If anyone could have met that standard there would have been no need for Christ to die at calvary

I don't want the credit because I am not under man directed works of the Law and I realize Christ deserves all the glory for any good work done in me. That's what you fail to understand.



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't want the credit because I am not under man directed works of the Law and I realize Christ deserves all the glory for any good work done in me. That's what you fail to understand.



...

Then whos fault is it if you fail the law of righteousness?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have debated with seventh day adventists. The official line is, they accept people who do not observe a Saturday Sabbath as Christians for they believe they sin in ignorance.
However, that is not possible. As I pointed out to a few, if God required a person to observe a Saturday Sabbath, that law would have to be written on their mind and placed on their heart. Therefore a person would have to be conscious they were sinning before God by not observing it.

I never was a 7th day Adventist. I do not believe they are Biblical by requiring us to obey the Sabbath when no such Command is given to us in the New Covenant. For some regard all days a like.



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I never was a 7th day Adventist. I do not believe they are Biblical by requiring us to obey the Sabbath when no such Command is given to us in the New Covenant. For some regard all days a like.



...

I never was a 7th day Adventist. I do not believe they are Biblical by requiring us to obey the Sabbath when no such Command is given to us in the New Covenant. For some regard all days a like.



...

They also insist you must avoid the levitical unclean foods, inspite of Paul twice stating in Romans 14 all food is clean