True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness through faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith inh]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-28014h">[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-28017i">[i] through the shedding of his blood – to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 – he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the ‘law’ that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Rom 3:19-21

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29113e">[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.’f]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29114f">[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, ‘The person who does these things will live by them.’g]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29115g">[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.’h]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29116h">[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The law and the promise
15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds’, meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed’,i]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29119i">[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: the law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Children of God
23 Before the coming of this faith,j]' data-fn="#fen-NIVUK-29126j">[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal3:10-29

Read the verse you just quoted. It says the Law was added because of transgressions. This is talking about the Law of Moses and not all Laws or Commands in general.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Technically if you are not perfect in the flesh you break the law. Therefore you are a lawbreaker. Are you perfect I your flesh? I admit I am not in mine. However when Paul mentions the term to timothy he is speaking of people who's lifestyle is one of habitual lawlessness, they wilfully seek to do that. A christian cannot be a lawbreaker in that sense for they have been born again

It only takes one sin to send someone to hell.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:27-30).

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For by one sacrifice he made forever perfect those who are being made holy heb 10:14

If you are being made holy you are not perfect in your flesh. If you were you would bs perfectly holy. However, God sees you as perfect forever despite your imperfections for he sees the sacrifice his son made for you at Calvary, not your failure to be perfect

That is just one part of the Bible you are quoting, dear sir. There are other places in the Bible that says believers can be perfect and or are perfect or perfect in a particular thing. Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. If Jesus did not really mean we would never be perfect, then He would have been lying. In other words, it would be like Jesus telling us to open a door (and yet in reality we cannot open it). Such a thing would be a cruel joke. Jesus would never tell us something that we could not do. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to sin no more. Again, Jesus meant what He said. James said, "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." James also said, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Romans 7:7-11 Paul states when the commandment came to him,(Thou shalt not covet) sin used what was good and holy to arouse all manner of concupiscence in him.
He states in Rom 6:14. Sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.

I believe the penalty of sin, brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Hence, Romans 7:7-11 & Rom 6:14

That doesn't make any sense. The Scriptures say that the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil. This can even be illustrated in the real world. If a person fears something, they will do anything they can to avoid it.

If I said to you if you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell. What is the first thought that will come into your head if you believe me? Consequently. If I said to you. If you break the law of Thou shalt not covet, God will condemn you to hell. What is the first thought that will come into your head if you believed me?

There are many sins that I do not commit that have dire consequences in the after-life to one's soul that I do not commit.


...

 

[fhansen]

This thread is to prove your case for or against Conditional Salvation (Which would include the understanding that Justification is wiping the slate clean of one's past sins when a person repents and receives Christ or when they (the believer) confesses and forsakes their sin) (This would also include the acceptance that the word "works" (In certain cases) and the word "Law" in other occasions in the Bible is in reference to the Law of Moses, too).

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) (or Eternal Security).

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). However, another problem with this version of OSAS is that it denies Sinless Perfectionism, too (Like all other forms of OSAS). Meaning, those who hold to this view generally deny that one can stop sinning (or stop in committing those grevious sins or sins that lead unto death like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc.) in this life. But this is merely an excuse to hold onto the old man and their sin. True repentance is confessing and forsaking one's sin. God does not want us to remain enslave to our sins. Yes, there are people who honestly struggle with sin. But we will not be slaves to our sin in this life if we trust in Christ and allow Him to do the good work in our lives.


....

We can be justified, but then like the wicked and lazy servant in the Parable of the Talents, or the believer who ends of as poor soil where the word first took root but later whithered and died, we can turn away again, or simply refuse to cooperate in God's work in us; we bury our "talents". It's not that we were never saved to begin with in this case; its just that we reject the heavenly gift after once tasting it.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses in Romans 4. Here is the context:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1)

"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:" (Romans 3:29).

The Jews tried to be justified exclusively by the Law of Moses without any need for a Savior. They were also trying to push the old ritual laws from the Law of Moses like circumcision upon Christians that did not apply anymore. We are now under a New Covenant with New Commands.

In other words, Paul is talking about what is going on internally involving salvation within Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9. James is talking about what salvation looks like externally in James 2:17. The source of a person's salvation is Jesus both internally and externally. Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law of Moses or by a works salvation alone type belief. Paul is referring to man directed works, whereas James is referring to God directed works.



...

Dear Jason
If Paul is only speaking of the law of Moses do you uphold that law?
Only the last verse of romans 3 states:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all, rather we uphold the law rom3:31

Jason, most who come onto christian debating websites will not yield when they are wrong. But by refusing to do so they hurt themselves

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, this is talking about the works of the Law of Moses. Besides, even if it was talking about works in general, it would be talking about man directed works and not God directed works. In other words, I cannot boast or pat myself on the back if I realize that any good or work I ultimately do in Christ comes from Him and not me.

...

I am going to repeat again. If rom 3;20-31 is only talking about the law of Moses do you uphold that law? Because the last verse in that chapter explains that by living under a righteousness of faith not law brings us to uphold the law. So by faith do you uphold Moses law? Jason, cone on, you are an intelligent man.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The mistake you continually make is. The core/basis of Paul's gospel is that by not living under a righteousness of obedience to the law we far better uphold the law. That is the same as saying. Sin shall not be you master for you are not under law but under grace. Yet you have to relate rom 6:14 to mosaic law. So is sin not your master concerning the mosaic law? If it is not you must uphold the mosaic law mustn't you?
What is the reason you refuse to admit you might be wrong over this?

 

[fhansen]

I am going to repeat again. If rom 3;20-31 is only talking about the law of Moses do you uphold that law? Because the last verse in that chapter explains that by living under a righteousness of faith not law brings us to uphold the law. So by faith do you uphold Moses law? Jason, cone on, you are an intelligent man.

Faith doesn't circumvent the need for obedience or authentic righteousness; rather it's the means to it. And this is how faith upholds the law, because the two, faith and the law, are not at all at odds with each other. Both are from and of God. Both are spiritual. The problem is that man is not spiritual until, via faith as a response to grace, he's reborn. Then obedience begins to prevail, the Holy Spirit at work within.

 

[stuart lawrence]

That doesn't make any sense. The Scriptures say that the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil. This can even be illustrated in the real world. If a person fears something, they will do anything they can to avoid it.



There are many sins that I do not commit that have dire consequences in the after-life to one's soul that I do not commit.


...

Through which law did Paul say sin aroused all manner of concupiscence in him? Once that law came to Paul he ended up a far worse sinner. Why did this happen? He had previously stated the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law(he cannot be speaking of mosaic law)
I am sure there are many sins you do not commit that have dire consequences in the after life, but I repeat, WHICH commandment aroused all manner of concupiscence in Paul? Jason I am meaning this really kindly. We need to pause and think about scripture we read, not just endlessly recite it. How many christians have a natural tendency to be homicidal maniacs, or be compulsive thiefs, or must lie, or don't want to honour their parents. Jason think about it please. Thou shalt not covet/lust/desire what belongs to another. Now how many christians have a natural tendancy to desire sex? Sin used that law to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Paul. How?
I am going to repeat. Half the sex addicts in the us have at one time or another been to holiness churches.
The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Paul the ardent Pharisee had to obey the pinnacle of the law which was the ten commandments. If he could not obey them he could not attain heaven, he would be cast into hell And sin sprang to life and slew him by the commandment
Paul said the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law written on tablets of stone was the ten commandments

 

[stuart lawrence]

Faith doesn't circumvent the need for obedience or authentic righteousness; rather it's the means to it. And this is how faith upholds the law, because the two, faith and the law, are not at all at odds with each other. Both are from and of God. Both are spiritual. The problem is that man is not spiritual until, via faith as a response to grace, he's reborn. Then obedience begins to prevail, the Holy Spirit at work within.

Absolutely grace through faith is the way to obey(rom1:5) I couldn't agree more

 

[stuart lawrence]

When jason states conditional salvation he means the following:
Obey the law or be cast into hell.
I asked a seventh day Adventist what a christian must do to attain heaven. She replied. Obey the ten commandments. A Pentecostal replied the same. Jason also believes this, so would a catholic. So it appears people in most denominations believe heaven is obtained by observing the law. Yet Paul pleads in his letters for people not to seek such a justification. The obvious response is. You are preaching a licence to sin. Well Paul wasn't and neither am I. Jesus said. Ye MUST be born again. Being born again cuts out the licence to sin. It is a two part covenant, not one part, but how many ministers preach that

 

[stuart lawrence]

Faith doesn't circumvent the need for obedience or authentic righteousness; rather it's the means to it. And this is how faith upholds the law, because the two, faith and the law, are not at all at odds with each other. Both are from and of God. Both are spiritual. The problem is that man is not spiritual until, via faith as a response to grace, he's reborn. Then obedience begins to prevail, the Holy Spirit at work within.

This is a great post. So I know you understand the way to holiness. So can I put something to you. If a minister preaches, you are saved by faith in Christ, but then they strongly infer heaven is attained by observing the law, will the convert stand on faith in christ to obey, or will they fixate on the literal letter and believe heaven hinges on striving to obey the law? It is a subtle difference isn't it, but It has huge inplications

 

[stuart lawrence]

As the reformers believed
In Christ alone, through faith alone

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Jason
If Paul is only speaking of the law of Moses do you uphold that law?
Only the last verse of romans 3 states:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all, rather we uphold the law rom3:31

Jason, most who come onto christian debating websites will not yield when they are wrong. But by refusing to do so they hurt themselves

Paul talks in how he establishes the moral laws out of love in Romans 13:8-10. We also establish the Law by trusting that Jesus kept the other aspects of the Law of Moses for us. But then again, Jesus was making changes to the Law, too. For example, Jesus changed the Law in regards to an eye for an eye and said we now have to turn the other cheek.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The mistake you continually make is. The core/basis of Paul's gospel is that by not living under a righteousness of obedience to the law we far better uphold the law. That is the same as saying. Sin shall not be you master for you are not under law but under grace. Yet you have to relate rom 6:14 to mosaic law. So is sin not your master concerning the mosaic law? If it is not you must uphold the mosaic law mustn't you?
What is the reason you refuse to admit you might be wrong over this?

This is flawed logic. Nowhere does Paul say the Laws they are breaking are the Law of Moses. Think. If they are not under the Law of Moses and Paul still talks of sin as a reality, then logic dictates there is a New Covenant with New Commands. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

This flawed logic. Nowhere does Paul say the Laws they are breaking are the Law of Moses. Think. If they are not under the Law of Moses and Paul still talks of sin as a reality, then logic dictates there is New Covenant with New Commands. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).


...

Jesus, while living under the old covenant stated the law hung on two commands love God and love your neighbour. That applies under the new covenant also

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When jason states conditional salvation he means the following:
Obey the law or be cast into hell.
I asked a seventh day Adventist what a christian must do to attain heaven. She replied. Obey the ten commandments. A Pentecostal replied the same. Jason also believes this, so would a catholic. So it appears people in most denominations believe heaven is obtained by observing the law. Yet Paul pleads in his letters for people not to seek such a justification. The obvious response is. You are preaching a licence to sin. Well Paul wasn't and neither am I. Jesus said. Ye MUST be born again. Being born again cuts out the licence to sin. It is a two part covenant, not one part, but how many ministers preach that

No. I don't tell people to obey the 10 because only 9 out of the 10 have been repeated in the New Testament. The Sabbath Command is no longer binding (even though one can certainly observe it).

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus, while living under the old covenant stated the law hung on two commands love God and love your neighbour. That applies under the new covenant also

Yes. Both Covenants with it"s distinctive Commands or Laws is based on love. But if you ever study the Commands of the Bible (Which I am sure is something you would be uncomfortable with), you would see that the Old Covenant Commands and New Covenant Commands are very different from each other (except for God’s eternal moral laws).


...