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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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stuart lawrence

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Well, Jews believe there 613 Laws in Torah or the first five books of Moses.

But if that is not good for you, then.... Scriptures just plainly says that. For Deuteronomy is called a book of the Law.

"And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:" (Deuteronomy 29:21).

And an altar of stones was commanded to be built by God as mentioned as being within the book of the Law of Moses.

"As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings." (Joshua 8:31).


...
You are still unable to back up your belief with scripture. Paul states the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law written on tablets of stone was the ten commandments. We know why Paul called that the ministration of death because he gave an example from his own life in romans seven ad to how one of the ten commandments condemned him. You insist on living under a righteousness before God of what Paul termed the ministration of death, for you do not understand what being born again does in the christian
 
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You are still unable to back up your belief with scripture. Paul states the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law written on tablets of stone was the ten commandments. We know why Paul called that the ministration of death because he gave an example from his own life in romans seven ad to how one of the ten commandments condemned him. You insist on living under a righteousness before God of what Paul termed the ministration of death, for you do not understand what the yet born again does in the christian

Wow. Really? What in the world do you make of those 2 verses I just showed you? Are they lying? Is it a coincidence that they mention the Law of Moses and yet are not referring to the 10?


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stuart lawrence

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Wow. Really? What in the world do you make of those 2 verses I just showed you? Are they lying? Is it a coincidence that they mention the Law of Moses and yet are not referring to the 10?


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It doesn't matter the huge effort you are trying to make. I have asked you for one plain verse of scripture and you cabnot provide it. I have provided scripture to prove my belief correct, obviously you refuse to accept it so....
 
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What does being born again mean? Does not a new heart and a new spirit lead to a changed life?

Anyways, I think it is best we agree to disagree. I am sharing Scripture but you are not really explaining the verses I bring forth.

Anyways, I believe in Conditional Salvation because:

(a) Scripture teaches it.
(b) It can be made into a real world example.
(c) And it lines up with common basic morality or the goodness of God.


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Soyeong

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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

I don't think the Bible uses the phrase "works of the Law of Moses". There actually isn't a definitive article in the Greek, so it should be "works of law", which is specifically not the Law of Moses.

What I will be discussing.

1. True Justification vs. False Justification.

2. True Obedience vs. False Obedience.

3. The Law of Christ vs. the Law of Moses.

4. The New Covenant vs. the Old Covenant.

5. Works of Christ vs. Works of the Law.

6. God directed works vs. Man directed works.

7. True Righteousness vs. False Righteousness.

8. What does a True Born Again life look like?
(Does your belief about the New Birth support Holiness or sin?)

9. What type of "works" is Ephesians 2:9 referring to?
(God directed works or man directed works?)

10. The Problem in denying that a believer can stop sinning or that we can be Perfect.

....

1.) The Law of Moses was never given for the purpose of justification, so trying to keep it order to become justified is actually a perversion of it. The only and only way to become justified is by faith, so if Moses was justified, then he was justified before the law was give to him. Rather, the law is how God wants those who are saved to behave, just as God first saved Israel out of Egypt, then gave them the law. We are to obey God because we have been saved, not in order to be saved.

2.) Obedience to God has always been about how we are to demonstrate our love and faith and God has always disdained in when His people outwardly obeyed Him while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).

3.) The Law of Christ just is the Law of Moses in the way that Jesus taught how to keep it by both word and example, such as in Matthew 5.

7.) In the same way that a Firefighter is someone who is called fights fires, someone is is righteous is called to do what is righteous in accordance with God's law.

8.) Jesus kept the law perfectly and someone who abides in him will follow his example and walk as he walked (1 Peter 2:21, 1 John 2:4-6).

9.) The good works are what God commanded in the law (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
 
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Soyeong

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But Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15). What are his commandments? Everything He commanded us directly Himself or by His apostles in the New Testament. For Paul even essentially said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22).


....

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

This draws a connection between what Jesus command and the way he walked, and the way he walked was in perfect obedience to the law, so his commands and the law are one in the same. Furthermore, Jesus said his teaching was not his own, but that of the one who sent him (John 7:16) and that he came only to do the Father's will, so he was not in disagreement with the Father about which commands should be followed. Jesus did not give any indication that he was editing the law down to just the important ones that he repeated, but rather he said the exact opposite:

Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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Soyeong

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Hate to break it to you but Paul does tell us to be moral by loving others (Which fulfills the Old Law).

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).

Loving others is a work. Granted, it is a God directed work and not a man directed work (like with the Jews trying to obey the Law of Moses alone in order to be justified or saved).

As for the Sabbath Command: Well, that really is not a moral law but it is a ceremonial law. Moral laws are even known amongst the Gentiles for their heart bares witness of what they know to be good and right. However, some folks just ignore their moral compasses, though.


...

Morality is in regard to what ought to be done and God ought to be obeyed, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor, so love fulfills the law because that is what the law is essentially about. The other laws hang on the greatest two, so they are examples that paint a picture of how we are to demonstrate our love to God and our neighbor.
 
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Soyeong

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But your salvation doesn't depend on Jesus, it depends on a righteousness of observing the law

Salvation from sin involves both our salvation from the penalty of sin and our salvation from sinning. In other words, our salvation involves being saved from transgressing the law, which involves coming it obedience to it as part of sanctification as we become more like Christ in his perfect obedience to the law.
 
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Soyeong

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Paul says we establish/uphold the law if we live by a righteousness of faith in Christ, not one of observing the law, you reject that

Living by a righteousness of faith in Christ is in accordance with the law (Habakkuk 2:4). It does not mean that you will live in a manner that is different from obedience to God's commands.
 
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Soyeong

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The most dangerous churches in Christendom are those that earnestly stress righteous living, and demand almost sinless perfection but do not alongside that preach Paul's gospel message of how sin is to be overcome. The result has been disaster for many

Sin is the transgression of the law, so overcoming sin at a minimum involves obedience to the law and it is the Spirit dwelling in us that causes us to obey it by faith (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
 
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Soyeong

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You have to know in your heart there I no condemnation in Christ Jesus for he is the end of the law unto righteousness. Then you reach first base. You live God with all your heart when you know that. Then you preach righteous living, not before, otherwise people fo not stand in Christ but in their own efforts to be good enough

Indeed, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, but those who are in Christ avoid lawlessness and practice righteousness (1 John 3:4-10), bear much good fruit (John 15:8), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:4-6), all in accordance with the law.
 
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kingskid

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Indeed, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, but those who are in Christ avoid lawlessness and practice righteousness (1 John 3:4-10), bear much good fruit (John 15:8), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:4-6), all in accordance with the law.
Amen. Not because of righteousness on the person's part but because of God's promises.

1 John 1:9 KJV
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He is the one that cleans us from all unrighteousness. It is His promises and His gift that make us that way. Praise God!
 
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stuart lawrence

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What does being born again mean? Does not a new heart and a new spirit lead to a changed life?

Anyways, I think it is best we agree to disagree. I am sharing Scripture but you are not really explaining the verses I bring forth.

Anyways, I believe in Conditional Salvation because:

(a) Scripture teaches it.
(b) It can be made into a real world example.
(c) And it lines up with common basic morality or the goodness of God.


....
The reason I do not respond to your scripture Jason, is because you cannot bring any scripture forth to spport your view, only add to what scripture states in order to make it say what you want it to say. I have already proved to you when Paul spoke of dying to a law of righteousness he meant the whole law.
What does it mean to be born again?

1) You become conscious of your sin before God for the first time in your life, you can no longer sin in ignorance.
2) When ever you commit wilfull sin you feel reel bad, for you are going against the law you want to obey in your heart. But you can and do at times commit wilfull sin for though you have been born again in your heart and mind, you have not been in your flesh. This is the eternal struggle, spirit against flesh.
3) The Christian suffers when they commit sin, they have no rest, no peace until they come before their father in Heaven and seeks his forgiveness for their folly.
4) Being born again cuts out the licence to sin. I think you accept it is a two part covenant, not a one part covenant. Now how many ministers have you heard preach sermons on Heb 10:16&17? Don't you think they should all be doing so? That is after all the core of the new covenant the christian is under.
 
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stuart lawrence

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So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. (NIV)


Upon conversion a person is immediately accepted by God as His child, and if that person died the next day, he or she would go to be with the Lord. So in that sense the person is immediately justified at the point of conversion. So what justification is Paul speaking of? Well he tells us in Romans 6:17-18: “But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (NIV)

So we know the justification Paul is speaking of; when new converts come to Christ they seek to be changed from being slaves to sin (where sin dominates their lives) into people who become slaves of righteousness. Paul elaborates on this a little further in the chapter. He says that though the Romans used to offer themselves as slaves to impurity and ever-increasing wickedness, now they should offer themselves as slaves to righteousness, which leads to holiness. Importantly, he tells the Romans they cross over from one state to the other by following the pattern of teaching they have been given. We know this teaching is the Gospel of Grace we have been looking at.

Now Paul is not telling us we will be perfect in the flesh. Truth be told, we all have sin to mourn over all of our lives, for none of us is perfect. There are, however, sins that will utterly consume us because of their very nature if they are not dealt with, and keep us from crossing over to where Paul says we need to be. We need to be set free of these sins so we may follow a life of seeking to be led into holiness, rather than a life where we are enslaved by ungodliness.

Paul tells us in the text from Galatians that we seek this justification, not by

works of the law, but by faith in Christ. What does he mean by “works of the law”? Well let us first remember the definition of sin from the last chapter: “transgression of the law.” If we seek justification by works of the law, therefore, we seek it by striving ourselves to defeat the sin in us. We do the work to remove the sin. Then we have sought to be justified by works of the law. Paul tells us, however, we don’t do this. Rather we seek to be justified by faith in Christ. We trust in Christ, therefore, in order to cross over to where we need to be.

Now I wonder if some may think we should be making every effort to get rid of the sin ourselves because it doesn’t seem correct we do nothing apart from trust in Jesus. Some might think we are just being lazy and half-hearted, and not much committed to our new found life. But you see friend, do not forget what the Holy Spirit has done in us as converts. We are desperate to be rid of the sin. In fact, the last thing we want is for it to stay there. Remember, we have been born again. We are not after an easy ride at all, nor will Satan let us have one. Now many who come to Christ do indeed strive to defeat the sin and with all good intention, for they are desperate to be free of it. You see, however, this is where so many stumble at the first hurdle. It is what Christ can do in us when we trust in Him that is potent, not what we can do. Would we really think that we, by our own efforts, are better equipped than Jesus to deal with the sin we are a slave to? What happens in reality when we strive to defeat the sin? We are, in effect, seeking a justification under the law in our own strength. There is no power in such an approach, friend − I know there isn’t!

The great preacher, Charles Spurgeon said, when a person becomes a Christian, it is like approaching a very tall mountain. Most try to climb the mountain, but it is too steep; they cannot do it. They have to give up, exhausted by their efforts, and come back to the bottom, only to try again and again. But you see, each time they try to climb the mountain they are getting more and more weary and dispirited, until in the end they are worn out with their failed efforts. He likened that to the way of law. At the foot of the mountain, however, was a narrow gorge, so narrow most never saw it. He said it was the way of Jesus and led to the other side. My friend, let us not try to climb an impossible mountain.

Is it not inbuilt into us that we get what we earn, we get what we deserve, and we get what we strive for in our own efforts? That is not the way under the New Covenant, however. It is not what we can do, but what God will do in us through Christ if we put our faith in Him. We have to stop depending on ourselves and start depending on Jesus. You see, because the Holy Spirit has changed us into people who in our hearts want to obey, this is not a licence to just sit on our backsides and not let the sin bother us. We want to obey, and Christ wants to change us through the Spirit who sanctifies us. The Spirit and Christ work in harmony. If we want to interrupt their work with our own feeble efforts, we will not see the victory we seek.

Sadly, many Christians today see little improvement in their lives. They never seem to move forward, despite the huge efforts they have made. They wonder why this is, and often come to the conclusion it is because they are just too useless and weak. Well in truth they are too weak, and it is useless for them to try to change themselves. Because they see change must come, however, they automatically try to bring that change about by their own striving and efforts. My friend, in effect they are trying to justify their Christianity by works of the law, though I am sure they do not see it as such.

Getting back to the text we are discussing, Paul asks, “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin?” What does the Apostle mean by “doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin?”

Well, you see, new converts are standing in their one and only righteousness, faith in Christ, and trusting Jesus for the victory over the sin they are enslaved to. Now how would that look to someone who does not understand the Gospel? Such a person would instinctively think Christ must promote sin, would they not? They see people before them rejoicing in being saved, while still having glaring sin in their lives. However, though new converts can rejoice in their salvation, at the same time they hate the sin that exists in them. They desperately want to be free of it, but they are still entitled to rejoice, despite such imperfections. Otherwise they must wear sackcloth and ashes until they are as pure as the driven snow. It isn’t possible, friend. New converts who have been accepted by God through faith in Christ are entitled to rejoice in that fact, while at the same time hating the sin that still binds them.

Now after Paul asks the question, “Does Christ promote sin?” he immediately answers it: “Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I really would be a lawbreaker.”

Now what has Paul destroyed? What has he consistently said cannot be regarding the law under the New Covenant? He has said we have a righteousness in God’s sight of faith in Christ, not one of obedience to the law; therefore, if he rebuilt that which he has destroyed, and once again lived under the law, he really would prove himself to be a lawbreaker, for sin is transgression of the law. In other words, if we live under the law, and seek to remove the sin ourselves in order to be justified before God, we will fail and simply prove we are lawbreakers.
 
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I don't think the Bible uses the phrase "works of the Law of Moses". There actually isn't a definitive article in the Greek, so it should be "works of law", which is specifically not the Law of Moses.

The words "works of the Law" mentioned in the New Testament is in reference to the works of the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant Law .

For the words "works of the Law" appears 5 times in Scripture.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=works+of+the+law&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

And it is clearly in reference to the Law of Moses.

Romans 9 is about Israel, so there is no point showing you that the words "works of the Law" is clearly in reference to the Law that they kept.

The other occurence of the words "works of the Law" is mentioned in Galatians and also is in reference to the Law of Moses. It is evident by just reading the chapter. But here is a bread crumb or clue that makes it obvious.

"why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:14).

The other 3 occurrences of the words: "works of the Law" is in Galatians 3. Again, it is obvious this talking about the Law of Moses because of many bread crumbs or clues contained therein. For one, it says the Law was added because of transgressions (Galatians 3:19). Second, it says the Law is a school master that brings us unto Christ (Galatians 3:24).


1.) The Law of Moses was never given for the purpose of justification, so trying to keep it order to become justified is actually a perversion of it. The only and only way to become justified is by faith, so if Moses was justified, then he was justified before the law was give to him. Rather, the law is how God wants those who are saved to behave, just as God first saved Israel out of Egypt, then gave them the law. We are to obey God because we have been saved, not in order to be saved.

2.) Obedience to God has always been about how we are to demonstrate our love and faith and God has always disdained in when His people outwardly obeyed Him while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).

3.) The Law of Christ just is the Law of Moses in the way that Jesus taught how to keep it by both word and example, such as in Matthew 5.

7.) In the same way that a Firefighter is someone who is called fights fires, someone is is righteous is called to do what is righteous in accordance with God's law.

8.) Jesus kept the law perfectly and someone who abides in him will follow his example and walk as he walked (1 Peter 2:21, 1 John 2:4-6).

9.) The good works are what God commanded in the law (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

While I agree for the most part in the 6 points you brought up. I do not agree that we are to obey ceremonial laws or judicial laws in the Law of Moses because Scripture says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. The eternal moral law has been carried over into the New Covenant (Obviously). However, while Jesus did keep the Old Law perfectly, He was also making changes to the Law, too. For Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery. When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn. Meaning, the Law that required the animal sacrifices was no longer binding or acceptable. Jesus is now our perfect sacrifice. The priesthood order of Aaron has been disolved or fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is now our Heavenly High Priest (of a new priesthood order). We go to Christ as a mediator and not a physical priest. There are no more Levites. Also, after Christ's death, Peter had a vision from God that he could now eat unclean animals. This a direct violation of OT Law. In fact, Scripture itself states the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Which makes sense because we are under a different Covenant. Jesus said, no man puts new wine into old wine skins.


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stuart lawrence

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The words "works of the Law" mentioned in the New Testament is in reference to the works of the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant Law .

For the words "works of the Law" appears 5 times in Scripture.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=works+of+the+law&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

And it is clearly in reference to the Law of Moses.

Romans 9 is about Israel, so there is no point showing you that the words "works of the Law" is clearly in reference to the Law that they kept.

The other occurence of the words "works of the Law" is mentioned in Galatians and also is in reference to the Law of Moses. It is evident by just reading the chapter. But here is a bread crumb or clue that makes it obvious.

"why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:14).

The other 3 occurrences of the words: "works of the Law" is in Galatians 3. Again, it is obvious this talking about the Law of Moses because of many bread crumbs or clues contained therein. For one, it says the Law was added because of transgressions (Galatians 3:19). Second, it says the Law is a school master that brings us unto Christ (Galatians 3:24).




While I agree for the most part in the 6 points you brought up. I do not agree that we are to obey ceremonial laws or judicial laws in the Law of Moses because Scripture says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. The eternal moral law has been carried over into the New Covenant (Obviously). However, while Jesus did keep the Old Law perfectly, He was also making changes to the Law, too. For Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery. When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn. Meaning, the Law that required the animal sacrifices was no longer binding or acceptable. Jesus is now our perfect sacrifice. The priesthood order of Aaron has been disolved or fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is now our Heavenly High Priest (of a new priesthood order). We go to Christ as a mediator and not a physical priest. There are no more Levites. Also, after Christ's death, Peter had a vision from God that he could now eat unclean animals. This a direct violation of OT Law. In fact, Scripture itself states the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Which makes sense because we are under a different Covenant. Jesus said, no man puts new wine into old wine skins.


....

I prefer the 1984 edition of the NIV it is plainer. It is not written as works of the law, but rather observing the law.

However, your belief does not stand up to scrutiny

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?

Do you really think this refers to the mosaic law? Paul is speaking of crossing over from being a slave of righteousness to a slave of holiness, he is definatley referring to the moral law.
I will put up romans ch 7 to prove the point concerning Pauls view:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us,Iso that we bore fruit for death.6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code Rom 7:4-6

So which law is Paul referring to in the above? Which laws did sin use to arouse sinful passions in Paul;

Well in the next five verses Paul tells us, for he gives an example of how sin used a law to arouse sinful passions in him, he is giving a personal example as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death
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11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7-11

So the example Paul gave of the commandment that aroused sinful passions in him, the example he gave as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness was Thou shalt not covet, one of the Ten Commandments

In my view Jason, you would do well to graciously accept it, rather than seek to contradict and undermine scripture
 
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So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. (NIV)
(Rest of post deleted so as to make room for what I wrote).

What does the grace of God teach us?

Titus 2:11-12
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

Also, the Bible says, "And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7).

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).

What is the real world example? Well, if I told people not to swim in a certain river because it is infested with gators, leeches, and piranha, do you think they will just take their chances and jump in anyway? No. Of course not. Unless of course they had a thing for being attacked by such critters. In other words, they know that there is a consequence by doing that which is bad or just plain dumb.

However, OSAS cannot be made into a real world example or parable. It simply fails. In other words, OSAS would sort of be like me creating a cure for weight loss by natural means. What do you think people are going to do then? More people are going to eat unhealthy foods and reduce their excercise (Which is not good no matter some miracle natural cure all drug). I have taken away the consequences so people are free to just eat like Bill Murray in Ground Hog day like their is no tomorrow. They do not need to go out and walk and or be active. More people will do the wrong thing because I have taken away the consequences (on the surface). That is what OSAS does. You tell people that Matthew 6:15 does not apply to the believer, and more people are going to disobey that command given directly to us by Jesus Christ Himself. But Paul even says that if any teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

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