True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

I think we agree - he is speaking about his time as a non-believing Pharisee and subject to the Law of Moses.

And, as per Romans 3, non-believers indeed cannot do good.

But this is before conversion - after conversion Paul gets set free from the power of sin and can therefore do good.


When did I ever reject the necessity of faith in Christ? And I am not sure what you mean by "the law of righteousness". If you are talking about the Law of Moses, you must surely know I believe that was set aside 2000 years ago and, as a Gentile, it would never apply to me in the first place.

I suggest your real quarrel is with Paul; he is the one who says this:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You cannot have the law of righteousness and faith in Christ, it has to be one or the other!

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless,P)'> 15 because the law brings wrath Rom 4:14&15

If a law of righteousness is in place you MUST depend on the law therefore fasith can mean nothing to you, so you are cut off from grace for grace comes through faith

 

[expos4ever]

You have to die to a law of righteousness for sin not to be your master according to Paul. He plainly states it, he couldn't write it any clearer than he does.

No, he says that Jew has to die to the Law of Moses. You seem to think that to good works is to be under the Law of Moses. This is not the case - all sorts of believers do good works every day as energized by the indwelling Spirit.

The POWER of sin is the law! 1Cor15:56

Indeed, the power of sin is the Law of Moses.

 

[stuart lawrence]

When did I ever reject the necessity of faith in Christ? And I am not sure what you mean by "the law of righteousness". If you are talking about the Law of Moses, you must surely know I believe that was set aside 2000 years ago and, as a Gentile, it would never apply to me in the first place.

I suggest your real quarrel is with Paul; he is the one who says this:

.

Your quarrel is with Paul not mine! The Ten commandments were not set aside 2,000 years ago. It was one of the ten commandments that Paul stated slew him as a Pharisee, and you have referred to Rom 7 as the law of sin and death.

So you want a law of righteousness for the ten commandments, that is what slew Paul! Why oh why can you not see it, it is written as plain as day

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, he says that Jew has to die to the Law of Moses. You seem to think that to good works is to be under the Law of Moses. This is not the case - all sorts of believers do good works every day as energized by the indwelling Spirit.


Indeed, the power of sin is the Law of Moses.

Ludicrous, it was the Ten commandments/the moral law

 

[expos4ever]

For sin shall no longer be your master,W)'> because you are not under the law,X)'> but under grace Rom 6:14

This is the Law of Moses. The Jew is released from the Law of Moses which, as Paul argues in Romans 7, traps the Jew in sin. But when Christ comes, the Jew is set free from the Law of Moses and therefore from it sin-inducing effects!

But that surely does not mean that the believer - Jew or Gentile - need not live a good life to be declared righteous at the end!

In fact, Paul says that they will be judged according to what they have done.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No one is released from the Ten Commandments!
This is what happened when Paul lived under a law of righteousness concerning the Ten Commandments:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom 7:7-11

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is the Law of Moses. The Jew is released from the Law of Moses which, as Paul argues in Romans 7, traps the Jew in sin. .

The Jew is not released from the Ten Commandments. Paul was slain by sin through one of the Ten Commandments in Rom ch 7

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is the Law of Moses. The Jew is released from the Law of Moses which, as Paul argues in Romans 7, traps the Jew in sin. But when Christ comes, the Jew is set free from the Law of Moses and therefore from it sin-inducing effects!

.

Can you not see your error here?

The Jew nor the Gentile is released from the Ten Commandments/moral law. The moral law trapped Paul and slew him in Rom 7 because he lived under a righteousness of it before God

You want to keep that law of righteousness in place concerning the law that trapped Paul, through which sin made Paul a worse sinner and condemned him,

 

[expos4ever]

Ludicrous, it was the Ten commandments/the moral law

No, it was the Law of Moses. Just a few breaths later, Paul writes this:

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,. the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

I suspect you will try to argue that by "written code", Paul is not referring to the entire Law of Moses. Is that what you will say?

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is the Law of Moses. The Jew is released from the Law of Moses which, as Paul argues in Romans 7, traps the Jew in sin. But when Christ comes, the Jew is set free from the Law of Moses and therefore from it sin-inducing effects!

.

So you are saying in the above the Jew is released from the moral law/ten commandments. For Paul argued in Romans 7 that through the knowledge of thou shalt not covet all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him.
You have admitted what is mentioned in Ro0m 7 is the law of sin and death. The law being spoken of is the moral law/ten commandments.
THOU SHALT NOT COVET

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, it was the Law of Moses. Just a few breaths later, Paul writes this:

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,. the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

I suspect you will try to argue that by "written code", Paul is not referring to the entire Law of Moses. Is that what you will say?

This is the trouble with most on these websites, when people are proved wrong they refuse to admit it. Im sorry, but it is obvious why. Once again from romans 7:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.(one of the ten commandments)

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You say the Jew is released from the law of moses mentioned in Rom ch 7. If you are right the Jew is released from the moral law/ten commandments

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, it was the Law of Moses. Just a few breaths later, Paul writes this:

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,. the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, it was the Law of Moses. Just a few breaths later, Paul writes this:

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,. the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

I suspect you will try to argue that by "written code", Paul is not referring to the entire Law of Moses. Is that what you will say?

Is Thou shalt not covet one of the Ten Commandments or not?

Do you deny Paul is speaking of Thou shalt not covet in Rom 7:7-11?
Please respond

 

[stuart lawrence]

Concerning Rom 7, I wrote:
Ludicrous, it was the Ten commandments/the moral law

You replied:
NO it was the law of moses

Is Thou shalt not covet one of the Ten Commandments or not?

Do you deny Paul is speaking of Thou shalt not covet in Rom 7:7-11?
Please respond

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is the Law of Moses. The Jew is released from the Law of Moses which, as Paul argues in Romans 7, traps the Jew in sin. But when Christ comes, the Jew is set free from the Law of Moses and therefore from it sin-inducing effects!

But that surely does not mean that the believer - Jew or Gentile - need not live a good life to be declared righteous at the end!

In fact, Paul says that they will be judged according to what they have done.

Paul argued in Rom 7 one of the Ten Commandments trapped him in sin! Thou shalt not covet
The Jew is not released from the Ten Commandments/moral law. If they are, then no one needs to live a good life do they!

The law written on stone(ten commandments) has not been done away with, it has been placed on the heart of the believer(2cor3:3)
But something was done away with, the law of righteousness which you refuse to accept.
As the Ten Commandments cannot be removed, and one of those laws trapped Paul in sin, if you keep the law of righteousness concerning them, you keep being trapped in sin by them don't you!

 

[Meowzltov]

There really should be no doubt that when Paul says humans cannot do good, he is talking about them in their natural state, not in the state they will be in after they are renewed through Christ and the Spirit.

Sorry but this needs a reality check. Christians do about the same level of good as non-Christians, meaning some do a great level of good, some are pretty dang selfish, and most are mediocre.

 

[expos4ever]

I do not have time to deal with all your posts. I will say this for now and will return to the thread later:

1. The Law of Moses includes the 10 commandments, along with a whole raft of other things.

2. The Law of Moses only ever applied to Jews - it is nonsensical to speak of it as though it applied to the Gentile. Does that mean that God thought it was OK for Gentiles to commit murder? Of course not! This is not hard, but people get tripped on this all the time: Consider the laws of the state of Kansas. One of those laws, presumably, is a law against murder. If I live in New Jersey, I am not under the law of the state of Kansas. But yegads people! This does not mean I am free to commit murder!! I am under a different law (New Jersey). Or even if there happened to be no law in New Jersey against murder, it is still morally wrong to murder.

3. To say that the Law of Moses has been retired does not mean that the Jew is free to commit adultery, or to commit murder, or to do anything else in the 10 commandments! Exact same principle as the preceding item. It simply means that the Jew simply does not look to the Law as a written code as the authority for the principle of not committing murder or adultery.

There are clearly some major disagreements here on the nature of "law" including what it means for the law to be on someone's heart. I will try to post more later.

 

[nobdysfool]

This is the Law of Moses. The Jew is released from the Law of Moses which, as Paul argues in Romans 7, traps the Jew in sin. But when Christ comes, the Jew is set free from the Law of Moses and therefore from it sin-inducing effects!

But that surely does not mean that the believer - Jew or Gentile - need not live a good life to be declared righteous at the end!

No one has ever said anything like that. Stop fighting the straw men, and deal with the truth.

In fact, Paul says that they will be judged according to what they have done.

Refers to rewards, not salvation.

Do you not understand that a Believer is joined to Christ, and is counted as not just having kept the law, but having fulfilled it? Jesus FULFILLED the Law, and if we are joined to Him in Spirit, as Scripture says Believers are, then Believers are counted as having FULFILLED the law, and are counted as righteous, by virtue of being joined to Him in one spirit! (1Cor 6:17 for he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit)

 

[expos4ever]

I am done - I see no possibility for anything profitable to emerge from this.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No, it was the Law of Moses. Just a few breaths later, Paul writes this:

Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh,. the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

I suspect you will try to argue that by "written code", Paul is not referring to the entire Law of Moses. Is that what you will say?

It would be better to admit your error, trust me, fo

I do not have time to deal with all your posts. I will say this for now and will return to the thread later:

1. The Law of Moses includes the 10 commandments, along with a whole raft of other things.

2. The Law of Moses only ever applied to Jews - it is nonsensical to speak of it as though it applied to the Gentile. Does that mean that God thought it was OK for Gentiles to commit murder? Of course not! This is not hard, but people get tripped on this all the time: Consider the laws of the state of Kansas. One of those laws, presumably, is a law against murder. If I live in New Jersey, I am not under the law of the state of Kansas. But yegads people! This does not mean I am free to commit murder!! I am under a different law (New Jersey). Or even if there happened to be no law in New Jersey against murder, it is still morally wrong to murder.

3. To say that the Law of Moses has been retired does not mean that the Jew is free to commit adultery, or to commit murder, or to do anything else in the 10 commandments! Exact same principle as the preceding item. It simply means that the Jew simply does not look to the Law as a written code as the authority for the principle of not committing murder or adultery.

There are clearly some major disagreements here on the nature of "law" including what it means for the law to be on someone's heart. I will try to post more later.

I knew you would not admit your error.
The law that trapped paul( to use your words) was one of the ten commandments.
I see no point in further discussion with you. Clearly you will never have the humility to admit when you are wrong.
The whole of rom 7 from verse 7 onwards clearly concerns the moral law/ten commandments. I am amazed anyone could not see that
Your whole problem is not understanding it is a two part covenant and by one of those parts the licence to sin is removed
Basically the law God requires a convert to keep got transferred from an external law to an internal law, thereby bringing the convert I their heart to want to obey the law in place. Because that is so, Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for people such ad described
However, you will never accept it, nor will you accept when you are in error so I withdraw from this conversation with one final thought
Sin used what was good and holy( the moral law/one of the ten commandments) to work death in Paul when he lived under a law of righteousness concerning it.
But the academic mind of man will never understand such a truth(1cor2:14)