True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[expos4ever]

Under the terms of the new covenant the law God desires you to keep has been written on your mind and placed on your heart by the Holy Spirit. Therefore the law was not annulled, but a righteousness of obedience to the law was annulled

No. The Law was annulled and replaced by the indwelling Spirit. Again:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

According to your stated belief the law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments, they have certainly not been anulled

I have never claimed that we should not do what the 10 commandments say. If I move from Canada to France, I am no longer under Canadian law. But I am certainly not free to commit murder since murder is prohibited by French Law. So by analogy, while the Jew is no longer under the Law of Moses in any sense, this does not mean that some other authoritative source - Jesus and the Spirit - is not now in a position to guide them to not steal, commit adultery, etc. (all the stuff in the 10 commandments).

 

[expos4ever]

Where did you answer it?

I asked you if observing the law was not committing sin, where did you plainly answer that?

Post 1495.

Now please answer my question.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No. The Law was annulled and replaced by the indwelling Spirit. Again:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.


I have never claimed that we should not do what the 10 commandments say. If I move from Canada to France, I am no longer under Canadian law. But I am certainly not free to commit murder since murder is prohibited by French Law. So by analogy, while the Jew is no longer under the Law of Moses in any sense, this does not mean that some other authoritative source - Jesus and the Spirit - is not now in a position to guide them to not steal, commit adultery, etc. (all the stuff in the 10 commandments).

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb10:16&17

 

[stuart lawrence]

Post 1495.

Now please answer my question.

You wrote:
As to your question: If a Jew, during the time in the past when the Law was in force, observed the Law of Moses, I believe they still sinned - there are many thoughts and actions that are sinful to which the Law arguably does not speak. Paul, in Romans 7 is quite clear - trying to obey the Law only served to increased the stranglehold that sin has on the Jew

That is no answer. Paul states you do not have a righteousness of observing the law. You know that is the context I am using here. Therefore, according to Paul linking it to righteousness.
In this context, is observing the law not committing sin
Two people have already answered the question, not fudged it as you are. Please respond properly

 

[expos4ever]

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

Exactly! A NEW Covenant. The Law of Moses is the Old Covenant.

No one is saying that we do not have to obey God's Laws!! You seem to think that any law God makes and gives to us has to be part of the Law of Moses.

All I and a couple of others are saying is that the Jew does not need to look anymore to the written code of the Law of Moses.

Please answer my question.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Exactly! A NEW Covenant. The Law of Moses is the Old Covenant.

No one is saying that we do not have to obey God's Laws!! You seem to think that any law God makes and gives to us has to be part of the Law of Moses.

All I and a couple of others are saying is that the Jew does not need to look anymore to the written code of the Law of Moses.

Please answer my question.

As soon as you properly answer mine as two others have done I will

 

[expos4ever]

In this context, is observing the law not committing sin.

This is an unclear question. Are you asking whether a person who fully observes the Law of Moses over their entire life would, therefore, not have committed sin? I would answer no - even perfect obedience to the Law of Moses does not mean you are sinless precisely because, as I answered before, there are many actions and thoughts that are sinful, but are not addressed by the Law of Moses

Or are you asking whether when you do a particular thing that the Law prescribes, are you sinning in doing so? I would answer no to that - it is certainly not sin to do what the Law tells you to do.

Now answer my question. I believe I know why you are not answering it - you know you have to disagree with Paul's clear claim that good works do matter unto righteousness.

What does Paul mean here?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will keep asking you this question until you answer it.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul states you do not have a righteousness of observing the law.

Do you mean that Paul says you do not attain righteousness by observing the Law?

 

[expos4ever]

No one is saying that "thou shall not steal" is no longer a principle we should obey.

What I and others are saying is the authoritative source towards which we look to learn this principle is not the Law of Moses. We now have the indwelling spirit and the commands of Jesus to guide us.

Please try to understand this: The fact that some of what Jesus tells us to do is drawn from the Law of Moses does not mean the Law of Moses is still in force.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't understand why you are asking me this - I directed my question to someone who denied that Christ was the end of the law. I agree with everything you wrote in this particular post.

Sorry. Then it was a misunderstanding on my part, my friend. Please continue. It is refreshing to see your posts here.


...

 

[expos4ever]

Under the terms of the new covenant the law God desires you to keep has been written on your mind and placed on your heart by the Holy Spirit.

Agreed, but as such the Law of Moses has been set aside - now that the Spirit is at work in us, we do not need the written code of the Law of Moses.

 

[expos4ever]

To hear some speak makes you wonder how they can believe they have a saviour from sin.
For if Jesus death at Calvary only ended a righteousness of obedience to the mosaic law-not the moral law, how does a Gentile benefit from Christ's death at Calvary? They were never under the mosaic law!

But the "moral" law - if you mean the 10 commandments - are part of the Law of Moses.

I think this discussion is really difficult because there are many things that we do not understand about each other's point of view.

I believe we need Jesus to cleanse us from sins. But I also take Paul seriously when, in Romans 2:6-7 when he says that at a coming judgement it will, yes, be evidence of good works in our lives that will determine our ultimate destin

But, I asked you a very clear question and I suspect you have no answer for it that will not prove to work out to you saying that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2:6-7.

In that text, Paul says eternal life is granted according to what we do. Why can't you answer that question?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Agreed, but as such the Law of Moses has been set aside - now that the Spirit is at work in us, we do not need the written code of the Law of Moses.

I agree. The Old Covenant Law for the believer today is like a giant shadow that is being cast from the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17 GW). The New Covenant Law is what we are commanded by Jesus and his followers to obey. These commands are followed by the power of Christ working in us. For we can do nothing without Him.

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is an unclear question. Are you asking whether a person who fully observes the Law of Moses over their entire life would, therefore, not have committed sin? I would answer no - even perfect obedience to the Law of Moses does not mean you are sinless precisely because, as I answered before, there are many actions and thoughts that are sinful, but are not addressed by the Law of Moses

Or are you asking whether when you do a particular thing that the Law prescribes, are you sinning in doing so? I would answer no to that - it is certainly not sin to do what the Law tells you to do.

Now answer my question. I believe I know why you are not answering it - you know you have to disagree with Paul's clear claim that good works do matter unto righteousness.

What does Paul mean here?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will keep asking you this question until you answer it.

Paul states the christian is not under a righteousness of observing the law

In THIS CONTEXT is observing the law not committing sin. Nothing to do with Jews under the old covenant
Itis a very clear question

 

[stuart lawrence]

Paul states the christian is not under a righteousness of observing the law

In THIS CONTEXT is observing the law not committing sin. Nothing to do with Jews under the old covenant

But the "moral" law - if you mean the 10 commandments - are part of the Law of Moses.

I think this discussion is really difficult because there are many things that we do not understand about each other's point of view.

I believe we need Jesus to cleanse us from sins. But I also take Paul seriously when, in Romans 2:6-7 when he says that at a coming judgement it will, yes, be evidence of good works in our lives that will determine our ultimate destin

But, I asked you a very clear question and I suspect you have no answer for it that will not prove to work out to you saying that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2:6-7.

In that text, Paul says eternal life is granted according to what we do. Why can't you answer that question?

Id love to address your verses, but only when you properly answer my question and stop fudging it
Only by us having avproper understanding concerning what it means not to have a righteousness of observing the law do wd have a proper framework to move forward

 

[expos4ever]

Perhaps you could produce the post in this thread where anyone has stated the Christian is free to murder and commit adultery.

A correct understanding of the new covenant is to understand no Christian could believe that way. And they could not believe that way, when they accept Paul's Gospel message that they have no0 righteousness before God of observing the law

The problem is, because people do not understand the covenant, they claim people are preaching a licence to sin if they say the penalty for sin is removed. That shows the covenant is not properly understood

I think maybe I know where you are coming from: you believe the statement "Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness" has some implications for both Jews and Gentiles in relation to a belief that if they do good works, they can be seen as righteous.

I suggest it does not. I will explain the following in more detail later:

1. The Law in Romans 10 is the Law of Moses.
2. The Law of Moses was for Jews only.
3. Therefore, to say that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness only has implications for Jews.
4. The implications for Jews is that Jews have to stop believing that only Jews - the only ones who can even try to follow the Law of Moses - will be declared righteous.
5. Paul is not addressing the matter of "righteousness through meeting a good works" standard, he is making an argument the Jewish belief that only those who are under the Law of Moses can be declared righteous.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you mean that Paul says you do not attain righteousness by observing the Law?

Yes he does. But I want to know if in the context he is speaking whether observing the law means not committing sin
Two other people have correctly answered Thi question without all the preamble you are doing.

 

[stuart lawrence]

But the "moral" law - if you mean the 10 commandments - are part of the Law of Moses.

I think this discussion is really difficult because there are many things that we do not understand about each other's point of view.

I believe we need Jesus to cleanse us from sins. But I also take Paul seriously when, in Romans 2:6-7 when he says that at a coming judgement it will, yes, be evidence of good works in our lives that will determine our ultimate destin

But, I asked you a very clear question and I suspect you have no answer for it that will not prove to work out to you saying that Paul does not mean what he says in Romans 2:6-7.

In that text, Paul says eternal life is granted according to what we do. Why can't you answer that question?

If you observe the law does Thi mean you do not sin?
It is such a simple question to answer, unless you are afraid it will cause you problems doctrinally!

 

[expos4ever]

Id love to address your verses, but only when you properly answer my question and stop fudging it
Only by us having avproper understanding concerning what it means not to have a righteousness of observing the law do wd have a proper framework to move forward

Enough, I have answered your question. I will keep asking mine and the moderators will have to stop me, because I will keep asking.

I know why you won't answer.

I will do nothing but repeat my insistence that you answer my question:

What does Paul mean here?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Enough, I have answered your question. I will keep asking mine and the moderators will have to stop me, because I will keep asking.

I know why you won't answer.

I will do nothing but repeat my insistence that you answer my question:

What does Paul mean here?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You have not answered it. The plain truth is you are afraid to do so for you know it will cause you problems.


If we observe the law do we keep the law and therefore not commit sin?

How can that be hard to answer?

Why not look up the word observe in the dictionary if you are struggling with the concept