True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

Avoid answering?

What a joke.

I answered your vague question, and clarified my answer.

When you say observing the law, do you mean the law of Moses?

Either clarify your vague question, or continue your logical fallacy in futility.

Or, maybe you just simply don't understand the difference in the law of Moses and the laws and commandments that Abraham obeyed.



JLB

You evaded answering because you don't understand the spiritual aspect of Paul's gospel.the Hebrew catholic knows it is one whom law, she answered the question. You are just trying to evade answering for you don't understand the covenant. If you did you would answer the question. Paul simply stated in his letters people did not have a righteousness of observing the law, he didn't expand in the statement which law he was talking about. He knew his readers would know what he meant. Clearly you do not know, or are afraid to say

 

[expos4ever]

But do not fool yourself. Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). It's what the Bible says. If we were not under no law whatseover of any kind then we could not sin whatsoever in any way.

What makes this really hard is that we all have different understandings of what the word "law" means. I agree with you that it is crystal clear that the Law of Moses is now retired - I do not see how one can faithfully read scripture and think otherwise.

And yet, obviously, I think we should "not commit murder or adultery". Here is the key point, I suggest: Yes, these sins are forbidden by the Law of Moses but it certainly does not follow - as some here appear to believe it does - that to say the Law of Moses is retired implies that we are now free to murder and commit adultery.

Paul is clear: the written code is now over and we have the indwelling Spirit to guide us away from sin:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

So I think you are misreading 1 John 3,4 if you think it means that sin does not exist in the absence of any formal law or code. I propose that I can say 'sin is lawlessness' and intend the reader to understand that to ignore the prompting of the Spirit "counts" as lawlessness. I can understand that you think I am deforming the concept of "law" too much here. But, as we agree, it certainly appears that Paul thinks the time of obeying a "written or even memorized" code has gone. And perhaps more to the point, Paul uses the term "law" at other places to refer to the indwelling Spirit:

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

I am a little confused as to your position on 1 John 3:4 but I suggest it certainly cannot be used to argue that the Law of Moses is still in force.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul simply stated in his letters people did not have a righteousness of observing the law, he didn't expand in the statement which law he was talking about. He knew his readers would know what he meant.

Yes, and it was the Law of Moses in particular.

Note how Romans 10 unfolds:

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them {***Jews obviously by context} is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. Paul here affirms what he says elsewhere: The Jews saw the Jewish-specificity of the Law of Moses as grounds to believe they alone - to the exclusion of Gentiles - could be declared to be "righteous". This is what Paul means when he says the Jews tried to establish their own righteousness - he is not saying that Jews were trying be righteous by doing good things, he is saying that Jews bought into a system of thinking wherein only Jews could be declared righteous.

And so to declare the Christ is the "end of the Law for righteousness" is to declare that being a Jew is not what matters unto righteousness.

The fundamental problem that Paul sees with the Law of Moses is not that the Jews thought they could ascend a ladder of good works (prescribed by the Law) and thereby "earn" righteousness. It is instead that Jews thought righteousness was a "Jewish only" privilege.

I suspect you will disagree, but I suggest context overwhelmingly supports what I am claiming: See what Paul has just said at the very end of Romans 9 where it is clear that ethnicity and not "pelegianism" is the issue.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, and it was the Law of Moses in particular.

Note how Romans 10 unfolds:

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them {***Jews obviously by context} is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. Paul here affirms what he says elsewhere: The Jews saw the Jewish-specificity of the Law of Moses as grounds to believe they alone - to the exclusion of Gentiles - could be declared to be "righteous". This is what Paul means when he says the Jews tried to establish their own righteousness - he is not saying that Jews were trying be righteous by doing good things, he is saying that Jews bought into a system of thinking wherein only Jews could be declared righteous.

And so to declare the Christ is the "end of the Law for righteousness" is to declare that being a Jew is not what matters unto righteousness.

The fundamental problem that Paul sees with the Law of Moses is not that the Jews thought they could ascend a ladder of good works (prescribed by the Law) and thereby "earn" righteousness. It is instead that Jews thought righteousness was a "Jewish only" privilege.

I suspect you will disagree, but I suggest context overwhelmingly supports what I am claiming: See what Paul has just said at the very end of Romans 9 where it is clear that ethnicity and not "pelegianism" is the issue.

I am not discussing with you ad clearly you feel unable to answer a very simple question concerning the core basis of Paul's gospel. If you avoid answering such simple questions what would happen when the more difficult ones cane along
You said you have spent much time delving into this subject, and yet you appear unable to state whether you believe observing the law is not committing sin

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen!

Thank you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The answer is the same: the 613 for Jews, and NT laws for Gentiles.

I think I get what you are saying now and if that is the case, I am going to have to say... "no." Granted, the Law of Moses was for the Jew at one point in time (Before the cross). However, after the cross (i.e. the death of Christ), the Old Law was abrogated or abolished and believers today follow the New Covenant Law or Commands. Both Jews and Gentiles follow the New Covenant Law now. For there is no difference between the Jews and the Gentiles now. For no believer today obeys the Old Law in sacrificing animals. No believer today is obligated to be circumcised today. No believer today is forbidden to eat unclean animals. No believer today is to render an eye for an eye any longer but they are to turn the other cheek now. For Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).


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[Bible Highlighter]

There are 1, 050 + New Testament Commands.

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

There are a few on their list that I have discovered that they have not mentioned, though.


....

The only commands that I did not see on their list is the following:

Believe & confess that Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh (John 8:24 cf. John 8:57-59) (1 John 4:3).

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

Visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27).

Feed and clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, and those in prison (Matthew 25:35-36).

"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)

Thank God without ceasing. (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

Receive the word of God not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

Give to the poor needy brother; Especially if you wish them well (James 2:15)

Pray the Lord's prayer (As an outline) (Matthew 6:9-13)

Pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

Bear with them that preach another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4)

Reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11)

Correct and train others in the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).

Walk in the Spirit: This will result in the 9 fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5)

How to love according to 1 Corinthians 13.

Keep the words of the prophecy of Revelation (Revelation 1:3).

Live by speaking the Word of God (Which is our daily bread) (Matthew 4:4)

Study to show yourself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15)

Put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:11-17)

Be ye Holy as God is Holy (1 Peter 1:16)

Do not add or take away from God's Word (Revelation 22:18-19)

If we as believers sin, we are to confess our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9)

Do all things thru Christ (Philippians 4:13)

I am sure there are more.

As for the Old Testament Law of Moses:

I believe Jesus Christ has nailed that to the Old Law to the cross and implemented the New Covenant Law of Christ or rules under the New Testament; For Jesus said sometime before cross that the Old was about to vanish away (Hebrews 8:13).

Oh, and just so that there is no confusion. We are not saved by any Law keeping alone, but we are saved by Jesus Christ when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Keeping the New Testament Law of Christ is merely the proof that God lives within you. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. For salvation is not a super power but it is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). Holiness and fruitful works is just evidence that you have been saved if you have chosen to continue in His goodness.

Hope this helps.

And may God bless you all.


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[stuart lawrence]

And yet, obviously, I think we should "not commit murder or adultery". Here is the key point, I suggest: Yes, these sins are forbidden by the Law of Moses but it certainly does not follow - as some here appear to believe it does - that to say the Law of Moses is retired implies that we are now free to murder and commit adultery.

.

Perhaps you could produce the post in this thread where anyone has stated the Christian is free to murder and commit adultery.

A correct understanding of the new covenant is to understand no Christian could believe that way. And they could not believe that way, when they accept Paul's Gospel message that they have no0 righteousness before God of observing the law

The problem is, because people do not understand the covenant, they claim people are preaching a licence to sin if they say the penalty for sin is removed. That shows the covenant is not properly understood

 

[stuart lawrence]

[QUOTE[/QUOTE]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But Paul directly says that it is:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

What do you think Paul means in these words?


Jesus was a product of his times and culture and we in the modern west have been careless in understanding the implications. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which declare the abolition of the Law of Moses.

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and think that the Law of Moses remains in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

There is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul so forcefully argues (e.g. Eph 2:15): In Hebrew culture, “end of the world” language was commonly used metaphorically to invest commonplace events with theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of use of “end of the world” imagery to describe much more “mundane” events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away” is an apocalyptic metaphor?

It is Jesus’ death on the Cross where He proclaims “It is accomplished”. Note how this dovetails perfectly with the 5:18 declaration that the Law would remain until all is accomplished. Seeing things this way allows us to honour the established tradition of metaphorical end-of-the-world imagery and to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

So what Laws has Christ not fulfilled? Anyways, in Matthew 5:18, the word "law" is in reference to the Law and the prophets (i.e. the entire Old Testament). Jesus is predicting before his crucifixion, that he will nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us. He will also later fulfill prophecy in regards to His 2nd coming and His reign during the Millennium.



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[stuart lawrence]

So what Laws has Christ not fulfilled? Anyways, in Matthew 5:18, the word "law" is in reference to the Law and the prophets (i.e. the entire Old Testament). Jesus is predicting before his crucifixion, that he will nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us. He will also later fulfill prophecy in regards to His 2nd coming and His reign during the Millennium.



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

To hear some speak makes you wonder how they can believe they have a saviour from sin.
For if Jesus death at Calvary only ended a righteousness of obedience to the mosaic law-not the moral law, how does a Gentile benefit from Christ's death at Calvary? They were never under the mosaic law!

 

[expos4ever]

So what Laws has Christ not fulfilled? Anyways, in Matthew 5:18, the word "law" is in reference to the Law and the prophets (i.e. the entire Old Testament). Jesus is predicting before his crucifixion, that he will nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us. He will also later fulfill prophecy in regards to His 2nd coming and His reign during the Millennium.

I don't understand why you are asking me this - I directed my question to someone who denied that Christ was the end of the law. I agree with everything you wrote in this particular post.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't understand why you are asking me this - I directed my question to someone who denied that Christ was the end of the law. I agree with everything you wrote in this particular post.

Christ is not the end of the law full stop, only unto righteousness

 

[expos4ever]

I am not discussing with you ad clearly you feel unable to answer a very simple question concerning the core basis of Paul's gospel. If you avoid answering such simple questions what would happen when the more difficult ones cane along
You said you have spent much time delving into this subject, and yet you appear unable to state whether you believe observing the law is not committing sin

Why are you not answering my simple question? I repeat: What does Paul mean here?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will keep asking you this question until you answer it.

As to your question: If a Jew, during the time in the past when the Law was in force, observed the Law of Moses, I believe they still sinned - there are many thoughts and actions that are sinful to which the Law arguably does not speak. Paul, in Romans 7 is quite clear - trying to obey the Law only served to increased the stranglehold that sin has on the Jew.

But let's be clear about two things:

1. The Law of Moses only ever applied to Jews.
2. The Law of Moses was retired at the cross

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why are you not answering my simple question? I repeat: What does Paul mean here?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I will keep asking you this question until you answer it.

As to your question: If a Jew, during the time in the past when the Law was in force, observed the Law of Moses, I believe they still sinned - there are many thoughts and actions that are sinful to which the Law arguably does not speak. Paul, in Romans 7 is quite clear - trying to obey the Law only served to increased the stranglehold that sin has on the Jew.

But let's be clear about two things:

1. The Law of Moses only ever applied to Jews.
2. The Law of Moses was retired at the cross

You may keep asking as much as you like, but as you have refused to answer a simple question at the heart of the new covenant I made clear I would not respond to any of your questions. The reason you do not answer the question is because you think it will portray a licence to sin. This shows you have no true understanding of the new covenant.

It appears you expect a debate whereas you ignore as many questions of mine you are uncomfortable answering but at the same time insist I respond to all of your questions, debate does not work like that I am afraid

 

[expos4ever]

Christ is not the end of the law full stop, only unto righteousness

The statement in Romans 10 makes a particular point about the Law: that the Jew - the only one who had anything to do with the law - needs to abandon the idea that righteousness is limited to those who do the Law, that is, Jews.

But Paul is otherwise quite clear that the Law of Moses has come to an end:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The statement in Romans 10 makes a particular point about the Law: that the Jew - the only one who had anything to do with the law - needs to abandon the idea that righteousness is limited to those who do the Law, that is, Jews.

But Paul is otherwise quite clear that the Law of Moses has come to an end:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Under the terms of the new covenant the law God desires you to keep has been written on your mind and placed on your heart by the Holy Spirit. Therefore the law was not annulled, but a righteousness of obedience to the law was annulled
According to your stated belief the law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments, they have certainly not been anulled

 

[expos4ever]

You may keep asking as much as you like, but as you have refused to answer a simple question at the heart of the new covenant I made clear I would not respond to any of your questions.

You have no credible answer to my question, that is why you are not answering it. Do you think other readers do not see that you are evading a clear and meaningful question.

I answered your question, now please answer mine.

The reason you do not answer the question is because you think it will portray a licence to sin. This shows you have no true understanding of the new covenant.

No. I never posted anything that would lead reasonable to conclude this.

It appears you expect a debate whereas you ignore as many questions of mine you are uncomfortable answering but at the same time insist I respond to all of your questions, debate does not work like that I am afraid

I have answered your question, now please answer mine.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You have no credible answer to my question, that is why you are not answering it. Do you think other readers do not see that you are evading a clear and meaningful question.

I answered your question, now please answer mine.


No. I never posted anything that would lead reasonable to conclude this.


I have answered your question, now please answer mine.

Where did you answer it?

I asked you if observing the law was not committing sin, where did you plainly answer that?