True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

EmSw · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
It seems to me I am getting attacked a lot for supposedly believing it doesn't matter about sin, I am supposed to be saying a person can happily sin as much as they want.
So why will you not answer a very simple question. Is observing the law not committing sin?

Is observing the law committing sin?

Bible Highlighter · Nov 15, 2015

EmSw said:
David didn't believe the law was temporary.

Psalm 119:44
So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever.

Psalm 119:142
Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.

Since the law is truth, how is truth temporary? If you believe truth is temporary, then you must believe Jesus is temporary.

I believe the Bible teaches that the Old Law is no longer binding. For even certain moral laws had the death penalty attached to them. However, we are under the laws or commands in the New Testament, though.

But the Old Testament Law has been fulfilled.

For the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Gen.13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Ex.12:24; 27:21; 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek.16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer.30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic.1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph.2:9, Jer.25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer.49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deut.23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Hab.3 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb.7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Lev.24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Cor. 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez.29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer.49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jer.48:4, 42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer.48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa.32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in II Cor.4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”

Source Used:
apttoteach.org

expos4ever · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I am afraid that does not explain what is written. If the bible continuously states(ad it does) the christian is not under a law of righteousness that is the truth.

I am not sure how you see this as contradicting what I am saying.

I asked you a questio you have not answered. Is Paul right or wrong when he says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is perfectly clear and legitimate question - there is no need for you to delay answering it.

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

EmSw said:
Is observing the law committing sin?

Why can you not answer my question?
Is observing the law not committing sin?
Not much point in having a discussion if we don't understand the basics is there

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

expos4ever said:
I am not sure how you see this as contradicting what I am saying.

I asked you a questio you have not answered. Is Paul right or wrong when he says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is perfectly clear and legitimate question - there is no need for you to delay answering it.

I told you I would be happy to discuss your scriptures once we had the basics sorted out
Why are you reluctant to answer my question. Don't you know the answer, or are you afraid to state it?
Is observing the law not committing sin?

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

The people in this debate who most attack what I write, appear reluctant to answer a simple question.
Is observing the law not committing sin.
I say this with sincerity. If you are not prepared to answer questions concerning the core basics of the Christian faith, I really don't think you are qualified to attack my beliefs

Bible Highlighter · Nov 15, 2015

1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law.

...

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

Jason0047 said:
1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law.

...

Weve all accepted that Jason, but as you have responded, let me ask you the same question everyone else appears reluctant to answer.
Is observing the law not committing sin?

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

Here are some dictionary definitions of the word observing if they would help:

Respecting, following, heeding, keeping, performing, abide by, comply with, conform to, adhere to,

Meowzltov · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law. Rom 3:20
For se maintain a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law rom 3:28

Paul defines righteousness differently. For Paul, one could achieve righteousness through forgiveness apart from the law. This is a little different from the traditional definition, which included BOTH: righteousness as refraining from sin OR righteousness via forgiveness.

Meowzltov · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Christs death at Calvary I one core point on which the new covenant stands, what is the other?

Save us, Saviour of the world,
for by your Cross and Resurrection
you have set us free.

Meowzltov · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
I'm talking about when it concerns a child. Is a Childs place in the family threatened until they seek forgiveness for breaking a parents rule

Do you think parents never find their children so unruly that they surrender them to the state?

Meowzltov · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Now I'm confused a while ago you said observing the law was not committing sin. Which is it?

I misspoke. Sometimes when I read quickly, I miss out on words, and I think I missed "not" which changed the meaning, obviously. My bad.

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

Open Heart said:
I misspoke. Sometimes when I read quickly, I miss out on words, and I think I missed "not" which changed the meaning, obviously. My bad.

Is observing the law not committing sin?

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

Open Heart said:
Do you think parents never find their children so unruly that they surrender them to the state?

Do you really a think a loving parent would consider thei9r childs place in the family threatened until they said sorry for breaking one of their rules? It isn't possible

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

Open Heart said:
Save us, Saviour of the world,
for by your Cross and Resurrection
you have set us free.

The new covenant hinges on two core points. The one you are not mentioning cuts out the licence to sin.
Hardly anyone mentions both points. No wonder they believe true grace as stated in the bible is a licence to sin when it is brought to their attention

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

Open Heart said:
Paul defines righteousness differently. For Paul, one could achieve righteousness through forgiveness apart from the law. This is a little different from the traditional definition, which included BOTH: righteousness as refraining from sin OR righteousness via forgiveness.

Paul clearly states in rom1:17 the Christian has one righteousness from first to last, the whole of their Christian life, faith in christ

EmSw · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Is observing the law not committing sin?

Yes.

stuart lawrence · Nov 15, 2015

EmSw said:
Yes.

Thank you for answering the question. You accept that observing the law is not committing sin.

Paul states:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law. Rom 3:20
For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law rom 3:28
We who are Jews by birth and not gentile sinners know that a man is not justified by observing the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified gal2:15&16

Observing the law is not committing sin. Paul states plainly no one will be justified/righteous before God by observing the law, and observing the law is not committing sin. Therefore the Christian has a righteousness/justification before God apart from sin in their life.
Therefore, in that case, is it correct to say, Jesus MUST have died for all your sins at Calvary, past, present and future?

If you agree I will move the discussion on with you, but no one else for they refuse to answer the question, you did not.

Meowzltov · Nov 15, 2015

stuart lawrence said:
Is observing the law not committing sin?

Yes.

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