True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[ToBeLoved]

But according to John 14:17, they knew the Spirit and the Spirit lived with them (even though the Spirit was not inside them yet). Besides, does not John 1:12-13 say one is born again by receiving Christ or by believing on His name?


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That is a big concept that you should not take lightly.

There is a HUGE difference between the Holy Spirit being with them, rather than in them. See Romans 5,6,7 for what the Holy SPirit is within us.

Christ died so we could have God with and in us. It's a good study if you want to do an independent bible study on your own.

It is one of the least understood important concepts, when I talk to other Christians.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree.

The Holy Spirit in us is the down-payment and guarantee of our future inheritance in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are one of Christ's Own.

Romans 8:15-17
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

John 6:27
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Yes, those verses are true in what they say and not in what you think they say (that they don't say). Please carefully read each word very very slowly for John 14:17 and John 1:12-13.


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[Bible Highlighter]

That is a big concept that you should not take lightly.

There is a HUGE difference between the Holy Spirit being with them, rather than in them. See Romans 5,6,7 for what the Holy SPirit is within us.

But John 14:17 says they knew the Spirit and they Spirit lived with them (all be it not inside them).

 

[ToBeLoved]

But John 14:17 says they knew the Spirit and they Spirit lived with them (all be it not inside them).

But isn't the Holy Spirit God?

And didn't they already have God with them in Jesus Christ.

So why would it seem so weird that they would have the Holy Spirit with them because they had Jesus Christ with them also? Wasn't the Holy Spirit also with Jesus when He was baptised by John the Baptist?

Both are God.

Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. If you know Me, you also know the Father.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would go with The Spirit had not yet been given, since Christ had not yet been glorified.
The Holy Spirit indwells believers. He will not indwell an old wine bottle or it would burst.
So you can easily see, I hope, the new birth, regeneration comes BEFORE the indwelling Holy Spirit, else the person would be destroyed.
How long between these 2 events, the new birth and the subsequent indwelling Holy Spirit, is an open question.

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given,because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And when the bridegroom Christ is gone away, Jesus said The Father will send to them the Holy Spirit to indwell them.

15 And Jesus said to them, “Can the friends of the bridegroom mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.
16 No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse.

17 Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined.

But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

There is that word PRESERVED again! God preserves His saints. Jesus is talking about us being regenerated prior to receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Wine bottles analogy was talking about covenants. There are tons of verses that say OT saints are born again. For the fathers drank of that Rock which was Christ.


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[sdowney717]

But according to John 14:17, they knew the Spirit and the Spirit lived with them (even though the Spirit was not inside them yet). Besides, does not John 1:12-13 say one is born again by receiving Christ or by believing on His name?

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17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

Not yet indwelling but abiding with them. This was like the prophets of old experienced, the Holy Spirit was upon them , but was not in them.

John 1:12-13New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

v 13 says ''who were born' . If you can receive this, the reason they 'received Him' was they had been born of God.
Clearly it states they were not born of the flesh or of the will of man (themselves as their choice) but were born of God.

So v13 is the main focus of the prior verse 12.
A regeneration that comes prior to their confession of Christ as Lord.

Further Jesus says you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.
So being born again precedes them confessing Christ and being saved.

Also adding, I want to say this gospel was written after the completed work of Christ with Him gone back to Heaven.
This was not yet written for the apostles- disciples to be reading and studying.
Although for spiritual application these truths were still true, even though not written down yet.
God took care of all these details, being Christ is the good shepherd of the sheep.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The

But isn't the Holy Spirit God?

And didn't they already have God with them in Jesus Christ.

So why would it seem so weird that they would have the Holy Spirit with them because they had Jesus Christ with them also? Wasn't the Holy Spirit also with Jesus when He was baptised by John the Baptist?

Both are God.

Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. If you know Me, you also know the Father.

Holy spirit descended on Christ in BODILY form at his baptism( luke3:22) so he was WITH the disciples, but not yet in them as would happen at Pentecost. So we would agree

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But isn't the Holy Spirit God?

And didn't they already have God with them in Jesus Christ.

So why would it seem so weird that they would have the Holy Spirit with them because they had Jesus Christ with them also? Wasn't the Holy Spirit also with Jesus when He was baptised by John the Baptist?

Both are God.

Jesus said that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. If you know Me, you also know the Father.

To abide in Christ is to have eternal life and to be born again (Even if one does not have the Spirit living in them yet).

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:4-5).

See, the disciples could not do any miracles unless they abided in Christ; And the 70 disciples had rejoiced in the fact that the demons were subject unto them. But Jesus said, rejoice not that the spirits are subject unto you but rejoice that your names are written in Heaven. But did the 70 continue to follow Jesus? No, they later stopped following Jesus (John 6:66). Which means, the 70 abided with Christ for a time doing miracles and having their names written in heaven, and then later they fell away from Christ and refused to accept His Words anymore.

So a person can choose to abide in Christ and then later choose to fall away from Him.


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[stuart lawrence]

To abide in Christ is to have eternal life and to be born again (Even if one does not have the Spirit living in them yet).

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing." (John 15:4-5).

See, the disciples could not do any miracles unless they abided in Christ; And the 70 disciples had rejoiced in the fact that the demons were subject unto them. But Jesus said, rejoice not that the spirits are subject unto you but rejoice that your names are written in Heaven. But did the 70 continue to follow Jesus? No, they later stopped following Jesus (John 6:66).


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You cannot be saved/a christian unless the holy spirit dwells in you(rom8:9)
The definition of a christian can be termed:
Someone in whom the holy spirit resides

 

[Bible Highlighter]

17 [even] the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

Not yet indwelling but abiding with them. This was like the prophets of old experienced, the Holy Spirit was upon them , but was not in them.

John 1:12-13New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

v 13 says ''who were born' . If you can receive this, the reason they 'received Him' was they had been born of God.
Clearly it states they were not born of the flesh or of the will of man (themselves as their choice) but were born of God.

So v13 is the main focus of the prior verse 12.
A regeneration that comes prior to their confession of Christ as Lord.

Further Jesus says you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.
So being born again precedes them confessing Christ and being saved.

Also adding, I want to say this gospel was written after the completed work of Christ with Him gone back to Heaven.
This was not yet written for the apostles- disciples to be reading and studying.
Although for spiritual application these truths were still true, even though not written down yet.
God took care of all these details, being Christ is the good shepherd of the sheep.

No. You can twist it all you like. John 1:12-13 says he gave them power to become the children of God (Who are born of God) to those who receive Him and even believe on his name. I just read that verse and believe it. You do not like what the verse says so you try to jump around it with a bunch of excuses that does make any sense. Just read and believe it (or don't believe it). It's your choice.


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[Bible Highlighter]

You cannot be saved/a christian unless the holy spirit dwells in you(rom8:9)
The definition of a christian can be termed:
Someone in whom the holy spirit resides

This was said after the giving of the Holy Spirit. Before that point, Christ lived in the disciples. For Christ said that the disciples can do nothing if they did not abide in Him (See John 15). Jesus said I will send you ANOTHER comforter. Who was the first comforter?


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[Bible Highlighter]

To be born again is to receive the seed of the Word of God into your heart (By believing God's Word) and to be regenerated spiritually by the Holy Spirit. But that does not mean that one needs to have the Spirit living in them yet in order to be regenerated by the Spirit, though. John 14:17 says that the disciples KNEW the Spirit and that the Spirit LIVED with them (Even though the Spirit was not inside them yet).


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[stuart lawrence]

This was said after the giving of the Holy Spirit. Before that point, Christ lived in the disciples. For Christ said you can do nothing if they did not abide in Him (See John 15). Jesus said I will send you ANOTHER comforter. Who was the first comforter?


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Christians are IN Christ and he in they through the holy spirit. John 17 explains this

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How far gone was Peter when Satan spoke through Peter to Jesus before Jesus was crucified?
Jesus turned and said back to Peter

Mark 8:33
But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

This tells us Peter was not filled with the Holy Spirit, did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and had not been born again regenerated yet.

A person can go from abiding in Christ to not abiding in Christ. For the disciples could not have done any of the miracles they did if they did not abide in Christ. Jesus said if you can do nothing if you do not abide in Him (See John 15). So Peter was saved as a disciple. For it is absolute and utterly ridiculous to claim the disciples were not saved while telling others about Jesus to the house of Israel. An unsaved people trying to save others. Yeah, that makes a lot sense. Jesus said, I send you out as sheep among wolves.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Christians are IN Christ and he in they through the holy spirit. John 17 explains this

He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). They did miracles by Christ by abiding in Christ. They have eternal life by abiding in Christ. If one has eternal life, they first need to be born again to even enter the Kingdom of God. So it is a logical conclusion that they were born again and saved when they first received Christ or believed in Him (John 1:12-13).

To say that the disciples were a bunch of unsaved sheep who were amongst wolves trying to evangelize others does not make any sense.


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[ToBeLoved]

The
Holy spirit descended on Christ in BODILY form at his baptism( luke3:22) so he was WITH the disciples, but not yet in them as would happen at Pentecost. So we would agree

EXACTLY.

B I N G O !

 

[stuart lawrence]

He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). They did miracles by Christ by abiding in Christ. They have eternal life by abiding in Christ. If one has eternal life, they first need to be born again to even enter the Kingdom of God. So it is a logical conclusion that they were born again and saved when they first received Christ or believed in Him (John 1:12-13).

To say that the disciples were a bunch of unsaved sheep who were amongst wolves trying to evangelize others does not make any sense.


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When did the new covenant commence? The old one was still in effect until Christ died. at Calvary. Read

 

[ToBeLoved]

To abide in Christ is to have eternal life and to be born again (Even if one does not have the Spirit living in them yet).


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You are COMPLETELY WRONG with this.

The Holy Spirit testifies WITH your spirit that YOU are one of Christ's Own.

Born-again spiritually is to have the Holy Spirit WITHIN you. You are then a new creation spiritually, in Jesus Christ.


This is where I think your theology is messed up. But if you understand this, then your faith will explode!

 

[stuart lawrence]

The

He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). They did miracles by Christ by abiding in Christ. They have eternal life by abiding in Christ. If one has eternal life, they first need to be born again to even enter the Kingdom of God. So it is a logical conclusion that they were born again and saved when they first received Christ or believed in Him (John 1:12-13).

To say that the disciples were a bunch of unsaved sheep who were amongst wolves trying to evangelize others does not make any sense.


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the new covenant was not in operation until Calvary. I am speaking of the new covenant. Read john 17:20-23
We are in Christ and his father and they in us through the holy spirit who dwells in us. And christians can only be of one heart and mind in the spirit(phil2:2)

 

[ToBeLoved]

When he his his

Please read Acts 23:6. This was after the road to Damascus.

Come on now. You really must give me something better than this?