True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[ToBeLoved]

The wages of sin is death, so all sin lead to death. Saul the Pharisee said death, not spiritual death! You love adding words to manipulate scriptures; trying to make the ancient scriptures say what you want them to say! You labor in vain because it wont work! Sabbath is approaching, you should cease and rest from your vain labor; toiling and working the ancient scriptures. The sin was physical, because he said if you SEE a brother commit a sin not unto death, pray for him, G-d shall give him life. The sin is physical in nature, thus the punishment must also be physical. For example, if you drive your car past the speed limit, that sin does not lead unto death. But if you drive your car off a very high cliff into the ocean, that sin is unto death.

Why do you keep refferring to Paul as 'Saul the Pharisee'? Seems that you are much more interested in his position as a powerful, Jewish Pharisee than as an Apostle to the gentiles.

Why is that?

 

[mercy1061]

I think Jesus changed it. And of course, Paul was fine with that.

You think? That means you have no proof! When Jacobs name was legally changed to Israel, the ancient scriptures told us. The scriptures explicitly and PLAINLY tolds us, Jacobs name would no longer be Jacob but Israel. So keeping with the Spirit of Torah, the bible should tell us when someone name has changed or if he is no longer to be called Saul.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You think? That means you have no proof! When Jacobs name was legally changed to Israel, the ancient scriptures told us. The scriptures explicitly and PLAINLY tolds us, Jacobs name would no longer be Jacob but Israel. So keeping with the Spirit of Torah, the bible should tell us when someone name has changed or if he is no longer to be called Saul.

Yes I think.

I think is when I believe that I have the correct answer but do not have the time to look it up in the Bible.

Why do you not show me where Paul changed His name

 

[mercy1061]

Why do you keep refferring to Paul as 'Saul the Pharisee'? Seems that you are much more interested in his position as a powerful, Jewish Pharisee than as an Apostle to the gentiles.

Why is that?

Good question! Apparently there are some on this forum that think Saul the Pharisee taught against the Spirit of Torah. It is my position, Saul among his own countrymen, among his ancient Israelite brothers he is known as a honorable Pharisee, but among the Romans he is known as a bondservant from Yeshua.

 

[mercy1061]

Yes I think.

I think is when I believe that I have the correct answer but do not have the time to look it up in the Bible.

Why do you not show me where Paul changed His name

Its not in the Bible because he never changed his name

 

[ToBeLoved]

You think? That means you have no proof! When Jacobs name was legally changed to Israel, the ancient scriptures told us. The scriptures explicitly and PLAINLY tolds us, Jacobs name would no longer be Jacob but Israel. So keeping with the Spirit of Torah, the bible should tell us when someone name has changed or if he is no longer to be called Saul.

This is one of the issues I have with Messianics. They say they believe in Christ, but in each conversation they point back to the law and the Old Covenant.

The proof is in what they say, not who they say they are. They are fence riders between the two religions. And every time they won't call Him 'Jesus' they call Him messiah. Usually in lowercase not giving him divinity in the capitalization of it.

Its not in the Bible because he never changed his name

It is in the BIble that he chaged his name because AFTER the Road to Damascus he only refers to himself as Paul.

What you call him, he is not anymore.

He is Christ's Kid. Paul

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'm confused. We both agree, there is only one law, and that law would include the ten commandments. Well Paul could not obey the law thou shalt not covet pre conversion to Christianity
I may be wrong, but it comes across as. If you obey everything apart from the ten commandments you have obeyed the one whole law

 

[stuart lawrence]

This is one of the issues I have with Messianics. They say they believe in Christ, but in each conversation they point back to the law and the Old Covenant.

The proof is in what they say, not who they say they are. They are fence riders between the two religions. And every time they won't call Him 'Jesus' they call Him messiah. Usually in lowercase not giving him divinity in the capitalization of it.


It is in the BIble that he chaged his name because AFTER the Road to Damascus he only refers to himself as Paul.

What you call him, he is not anymore.

He is Christ's Kid. Paul

Luke 5:39

 

[stuart lawrence]

H

There is only one law. Saul the Pharisee was blameless concerning the law. This is what you should understand: Yeshua did not destroy the Jewish temple, so he does not become a lawbreaker if he rebuilds it up again in three days. You recall David's tent? Saul the Pharisee was a tentmaker when he preached the gospel good news

I understand you are certainly wrong as to law gentiles were asked to keep. You said it had to start somewhere in ref to acts15 and then gentiles would be expected over time to keep the lot. Clearly that is not true. For years after the events of acts 15 upon Paul's return to Jerusalem the church confirmed the same laws, no more in respect of what they asked gentiles to keep(acts21)

 

[mercy1061]

This is one of the issues I have with Messianics. They say they believe in Christ, but in each conversation they point back to the law and the Old Covenant.

The proof is in what they say, not who they say they are. They are fence riders between the two religions. And every time they won't call Him 'Jesus' they call Him messiah. Usually in lowercase not giving him divinity in the capitalization of it.


It is in the BIble that he chaged his name because AFTER the Road to Damascus he only refers to himself as Paul.

What you call him, he is not anymore.

He is Christ's Kid. Paul

When he his his

This is one of the issues I have with Messianics. They say they believe in Christ, but in each conversation they point back to the law and the Old Covenant.

The proof is in what they say, not who they say they are. They are fence riders between the two religions. And every time they won't call Him 'Jesus' they call Him messiah. Usually in lowercase not giving him divinity in the capitalization of it.


It is in the BIble that he chaged his name because AFTER the Road to Damascus he only refers to himself as Paul.

What you call him, he is not anymore.

He is Christ's Kid. Paul

Please read Acts 23:6. This was after the road to Damascus.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Its not in the Bible because he never changed his name

Have you ever wondered why in acts 15 the gentiles weren't specifically asked to follow the ten commandments?
Could it have something to do with the law being in their most inward parts?

 

[mercy1061]

I'm confused. We both agree, there is only one law, and that law would include the ten commandments. Well Paul could not obey the law thou shalt not covet pre conversion to Christianity
I may be wrong, but it comes across as. If you obey everything apart from the ten commandments you have obeyed the one whole law

The whole law, as you say would include the ten commandments.

 

[mercy1061]

Have you ever wondered why in acts 15 the gentiles weren't specifically asked to follow the ten commandments?
Could it have something to do with the law being in their most inward parts?

Acts 15:21

 

[stuart lawrence]

The whole law, as you say would include the ten commandments.

So why are you claiming Paul kept the whole law? No one ever kept the whole law(john7:19)

 

[stuart lawrence]

Acts 15:21

Acts15:29, Acts21:25

 

[mercy1061]

So why are you claiming Paul kept the whole law? No one ever kept the whole law(john7:19)

John 7:20-23

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not against OSAS because I feel the Lord has more power than any doctrine.
I often think believers that still sin are just not converted yet. Kind of like how the Lord told Peter that satan desired to have him before his conversion.

Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Believers or unbelievers?
Does it matter if an unbeliever forgives so as to be forgiven? Or does an unbeliever have to do something else first with God?
In other words, Jesus's audience was believers in Matthew 6:15.
So this means that Jesus actually was talking to believers and telling them that if they do not forgive, then they will not be forgiven.
This means born again believers have a choice to follow God or not.
The new birth does not take away free will and we are not love robots.
Nor does God force us to be saved once we accept Him.
We still can choose this day in whom we will serve.

Luke 22:31-32 KJV
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

So you believe Christ called unsaved men (his disciples) as sheep out among wolves? Do you believe unsaved men were sent to preach to the the house of Israel? Do you believe a man can be saved without being born again? Jesus said that one cannot even enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Jesus also appeared to be surprised that Nicodemus did not know about the concept of being born again, too. For Jesus said,

"You are Israel's teacher" ... "and do you not understand these things? "

Anyways, what proof is there that the disciples were born again when they met Jesus?

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

But what about the Holy Spirit?

Well, the disciples knew the Spirit.

Also, the Spirit was with the disciples (even though the Spirit did not live in them yet). How so?

John 14:17 says,

"He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you."


....

 

[stuart lawrence]

John 7:20-23

Gal5:1-3

 

[kingskid]

Who was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Believers or unbelievers?
Does it matter if an unbeliever forgives so as to be forgiven? Or does an unbeliever have to do something else first with God?
In other words, Jesus's audience was believers in Matthew 6:15.
So this means that Jesus actually was talking to believers and telling them that if they do not forgive, then they will not be forgiven.
This means born again believers have a choice to follow God or not.
The new birth does not take away free will and we are not love robots.
Nor does God force us to be saved once we accept Him.
We still can choose this day in whom we will serve.



So you believe Christ called unsaved men (his disciples) as sheep out among wolves? Do you believe unsaved men were sent to preach to the the house of Israel? Do you believe a man can be saved without being born again? Jesus said that one cannot even enter the Kingdom of God without being born again. Jesus also appeared to be surprised that Nicodemus did not know about the concept of being born again, too. For Jesus said,

"You are Israel's teacher" ... "and do you not understand these things? "

Anyways, what proof is there that the disciples were born again when they met Jesus?

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

But what about the Holy Spirit?

Well, the disciples knew the Spirit.

Also, the Spirit was with the disciples (even though the Spirit did not live in them yet). How so?

John 14:17 says,

"He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you."


....

Jesus is the one saying Peter aka Simon was not yet converted here, not me.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus is the one saying Peter aka Simon was not yet converted here, not me.
Luke 22:31-32 KJV
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Yes, Luke 22:31-32 is a 100% true verse that I agree with. It does say Peter needs to be converted. In Luke 22, Jesus prophecies that Peter will deny Jesus 3 times and because of that denial (he will become unsaved), and he will then need to repent of such a sin and be converted back again to believing in Jesus (and be saved again) (for many modern translations essentially all say, "he turns back again"; Yet the core meaning of the word is defined as "converted" by it's use elsewhere in the Bible). However, what you are denying or will not see (like many here) are the clear plain straight forward verses that I just showed you in John 1:12-13, John 3:3, John 3:9-10, John 14:17.

For John 1:12-13 says as many as received him (or even believe on his name) he gave them the right to be children of God who is born not of the flesh but who is born of God. That is what the passage says. So it is up to you to believe it or not. Your choice. Either believe man's doctrine or believe the Bible.


...