True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[kingskid]

Yes, but 1 John 1:9 is not a one time event in most cases for a believer. It is imperative that they continue to confess their sin or they are not forgiven of their sin and cleansed of unrighteousness.

In 1 John 2:1 (which follows a little after 1 John 1:9), John states, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

So John is telling us to:

(a) Not sin.
(b) If we do sin, we have an advocate that we can go to.

Furthermore, what does 1 John 1:9 say?

It says we are actually forgiven IF.... IF we confess our sin.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

For David had confessed of his sin to get God so as to stay right with the Lord (Psalm 51).

Proverbs 28:13 says, "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."



But notice what John is really saying here. He says bring forth FRUITS worthy of repentance (or confession). In other words, as you said, it does no good to confess if there is no real change in one's life.



Not only are they in bondage to sin if they do not confess of their sins, but if they do not confess and they have backslidden into a life style of sin, they are not saved. They need to repent and get their heart right with the Lord to have life again.



But notice verse 7. It does not say "belief." It says if we WALK in the light as He is in the light, .....(then what happens)? It says we have fellowship and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses of all sin. This lines up perfectly with 1 John 2:3-4 that says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."



Well, I know what James 5:19-20 says and you did not quote it. In fact, it is a passage I wanted to quote above, but you left it out. Let's see what it says.

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

Many here will say that a believer's sins are paid for past, present, and future. However, James above here is saying that if one errors or slides away from the truth and another believer converts them back to the faith, they are to realize that they have converted this backslidden believing sinner from their error of their ways and have helped to save their soul from spiritual death (whereby their sins would be covered by their repentance towards Christ in coming back to the faith).


....

Amen Jason..can we continue in prayer for others? At this time I can't think of any sin I have not yet confessed and been cleansed of but there could be hidden sins one is not aware of. Thank you all for the fellowship.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Good afternoon Jason(uk time) I hope you slept well. Now please forgive me, but every day I am just going to put some general information up.

You agree with me Paul could faultlessly obey all the law apart from the moral law. You also believe the only law not being spoken of in Gal 3:10&11 was the moral law. Therefore you believe Paul could faultlessly obey the law he refers to in the following:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.

I will now address your other posts

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again, you think you are exclusively special in this regards. You are not. The Old Testament saint was told by God to keep the law in his heart, too. Putting the Word in your heart is to internalize it so that you may not sin against Him.

Psalm 119:11 - "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Deuteronomy 4:39, “Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:6, “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.”

Deuteronomy 8:2, “And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.”

Deuteronomy 11:18, “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.”

Deuteronomy 30:14, “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.”

Psalm 37:31, “The law of his God is in his heart; None of his steps shall slide.”

Psalm 119:10, “With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!”

Psalm 119:34, “Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.”

Psalm 119:69, “The proud have forged a lie against me, But I will keep Your precepts with my whole heart.”

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach of men, Nor be afraid of their insults.”

Psalm 40:8 “I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

Proverbs 3:1, “My son, do not forget my law, But let your heart keep my commands.”


...

A simple question Jason that only needs a yes or no answer. Only it will be much simpler if we both understand each other on these things. Do the following statements in your view solely relate to the new covenant or not? If you are unsure, that is fine just say so:

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb10:16&17

 

[stuart lawrence]

Actually, you left out an important word that shows up in Romans 6:1. It is the word "continue."

Paul asks the question: "
"Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

According to what you said so far, the answer would be a "yes" because you told me that you do not believe you can stop sinning or cease from sin. You also told me that Galatians says that we will be found as sinners, too.

However, what is Paul's reply to this question on whether or not we should continue in sin? Paul says, "God forbid." (Romans 8:2).


....

You have to rightly divide the word Jason

Shall we continue in sin(wilfull sin allowing ourselves to be slaves of sin) so that grace may abound? No!
I have been totally consistant, the Christian is to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. You constantly refused to read a chapter I wrote explaining this, instead sadly inferring the chapter meant and stated other than what it did. Now I am going to be forced to copy many of my replies to you onto word to store them, for sadly you keep insisting I am saying what I do not say. Please remember that commandment I told you of yesterday

 

[stuart lawrence]

But is there victory over sin in your life? You told me that you do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer cannot stop from sinning.

For can an alcoholic claim victory over alcohol if they say they cannot ever stop? Surely not.


....

Again Jason, It is a pity you refuse to read the chapter I put up yesterday, in the example given the man was an alcoholic but crossed over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness and the drinking stopped. Let me make crystal clear here. If an alcoholic became a Christian and followed the true path of grace, they will be delivered fr9om their alcohol addiction. I do not mean this unkindly, but it must be stated. If n alcoholic went to a church with your beliefs they may well not be delivered from alcohol if they are in earnest to be delivered from it for you do not accept the true path of grace, therefore they would not know of true grace

 

[stuart lawrence]

That would require a rather lengthy reply with Scripture (Which would be deserving of it's own thread). But I believe I already expressed before what a person must do in order to be saved and what lies beneath in one doing that (Which is a love - that can only come from God).


....

No Jason, according to the writer of Hebrews there are two core components of the new covenant for he quotes them from Jeremiah31

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good afternoon Jason(uk time) I hope you slept well. Now please forgive me, but every day I am just going to put some general information up.

You agree with me Paul could faultlessly obey all the law apart from the moral law. You also believe the only law not being spoken of in Gal 3:10&11 was the moral law. Therefore you believe Paul could faultlessly obey the law he refers to in the following:

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.’e]'>[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because ‘the righteous will live by faith.

I will now address your other posts

But before I slipped into slumber last night, God showed me that even the moral laws are not exactly the same as the moral laws of today. For the judicial law had at times intertwined with disobedience to certain moral laws (sort of like how two different color threads are woven together as one). That is not the case today. Hence, why Paul argued so strongly that we are under a New Covenant whereby the Old Law did not exactly apply anymore.

God does not change in respect of who He is. God is still holy and must punish sin if a person sins against God. Having a mere belief that Jesus alone is one's Savior is not going to cut it. James said a man's religion is in vain if he does not even learn to bridle his tongue (Which is a moral act). Jesus said a man brings forth either good things or bad things (i.e. he speaks) from out of whatever he has stored up in the treasury of his heart. For an evil heart will speak evil things. But God's people bring forth good fruit. This is important to understand because Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say?

...

 

[stuart lawrence]

But before I slipped into slumber last night, God showed me that even the moral laws are not exactly the same as the moral laws of today. For the judicial law had at times intertwined with disobedience to certain moral laws (sort of like how two different color threads are woven together as one). That is not the case today. Hence, why Paul argued so strongly that we are under a New Covenant whereby the Old Law did not exactly apply anymore. God does not change in respect of who He is. God still holy and must punish sin if a person sins against God. Having a mere belief that Jesus alone is not going to cut it. James said a man's religion is in vain if he does not even learn to bridle his tongue. Jesus said a man brings forth (i.e. speaks) from whatever kind of treasure is in his heart. For an evil heart will speak evil things.

...

And I am sure you do not believe it is bridling the tongue to bear false witness.
Perhaps you could give me an example of a moral law God showed you has changed since biblical times. I have not heard this mentioned before. Again, I must be honest. It seems to me you will say anything in order to try and deflect away from the inescapable problem you now have with Gal3:10&11 as to your stated beliefs. I will each day be putting that post forth, it is only fair others know of the contradictions in your beliefs as this gives them opportunity to avoid them

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Amen Jason..can we continue in prayer for others? At this time I can't think of any sin I have not yet confessed and been cleansed of but there could be hidden sins one is not aware of. Thank you all for the fellowship.

I am glad we can agree. 1 John 1:9 is a promise you can always bank on so as to be cleansed of unrighteousness and overcome sin, my friend.

Peace be unto you;
And may God bless you.

...

 

[kingskid]

Having a mere belief that Jesus alone is one's Savior is not going to cut it.

I have to disagree with this. Belief in the power of Jesus Christ is in no way "mere".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I am sure you do not believe it is bridling the tongue to bear false witness.
Perhaps you could give me an example of a moral law God showed you has changed since biblical times. I have not heard this mentioned before. Again, I must be honest. It seems to me you will say anything in order to try and deflect away from the inescapable problem you now have with Gal3:10&11 as to your stated beliefs. I will each day be putting that post forth, it is only fair others know of the contradictions in your beliefs as this gives them opportunity to avoid them

As I said before, I am willing to make ammends if you merely talk straight with me in what I said specifically you do not believe. As of this date:

(a) I believe you deny that a believer can stop sinning. Is this true? Yes or no?

(b) I believe you hold to the view that in certain cases it is okay for a believer to die unrepentant sin and still be saved. Is this true? Yes or no?

(c) I believe you made the claim that you are not under any law whatsover salvation wise. That all one needs to have is a belief on Jesus as their Savior in order to truly obey God. I also believe you ignore the consequences to certain Commands given by God like 1 John 3:15, Matthew 6:15 as a result of this belief. Is this true? Yes or no?

(d) I believe you said to me that Galatians was telling us that we will be found as sinners. Does this mean you are a sinner right now? If so, what sins are committing that would define you as such?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have to disagree with this. Belief in the power of Jesus Christ is in no way "mere".

It is "mere" or "meaningless" if that is all a person has through out the course of their entire life. For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). Granted, James is talking about God directed works and not man directed works. For Paul even said, examine whether you be in the faith or not; know not your own selves and prove whether or not Christ is in you unless you be rebrobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).

As for Paul saying we are not saved by works and that grace is a free gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9): Well, this is talking about how are salvation is initially founded. It is our plumb line and foundation. We are ultimately saved by his mercy and by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). For the works Paul speaks of in verse 9 are man directed works. However, works of God are a requirement if we are abiding in Christ because the work comes from Him. This is where verse 10 comes in and says we are created in Christ Jesus for "good works." Good. Good works. For we can do nothing without Christ and there is none good but God.



....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, you think you are exclusively special in this regards. You are not. The Old Testament saint was told by God to keep the law in his heart, too. Putting the Word in your heart is to internalize it so that you may not sin against Him.

Psalm 119:11 - "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Deuteronomy 4:39, “Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:6, “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.”

Deuteronomy 8:2, “And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.”

Deuteronomy 11:18, “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.”

Deuteronomy 30:14, “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.”

Psalm 37:31, “The law of his God is in his heart; None of his steps shall slide.”

Psalm 119:10, “With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!”

Psalm 119:34, “Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.”

Psalm 119:69, “The proud have forged a lie against me, But I will keep Your precepts with my whole heart.”

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach of men, Nor be afraid of their insults.”

Psalm 40:8 “I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

Proverbs 3:1, “My son, do not forget my law, But let your heart keep my commands.”
...

Let us keep the Word of God in the correct perspective.

Jesus did not come until the New Testament, so the law was still in effect in these passages.

 

[ToBeLoved]

As I said before, I am willing to make ammends if you merely talk straight with me in what I said specifically you do not believe. As of this date:

(a) I believe you deny that a believer can stop sinning. Is this true? Yes or no?

(b) I believe you hold to the view that in certain cases it is okay for a believer to die unrepentant sin and still be saved. Is this true? Yes or no?

(c) I believe you made the claim that you are not under any law whatsover salvation wise. That all one needs to have is a belief on Jesus as their Savior in order to truly obey God. I also believe you ignore the consequences to certain Commands given by God like 1 John 3:15, Matthew 6:15 as a result of this belief. Is this true? Yes or no?

(d) I believe you said to me that Galatians was telling us that we will be found as sinners. Does this mean you are a sinner right now? If so, what sins are committing that would define you as such?


...

Well I will answer which I hope is ok. I have been following this discussion since yesterday and trying not to interrrupt.

a. YES. I've never met a person who has 'stopped sinning'.

With that said, I do not think or believe that we are called to live 'sin free' as you describe it. I believe love and very specifically love for others or another is more important as that is what Christ has said fulfills ALL of the law.

I've never met a person yet who can hang with my Lord Jesus Christ in the loving others. So, I think that the wrong meter is being set by you in general. Every Christian that thinks they do not sin has not been able to, IMHO "Love their neighbor as themself" the way my Lord did.

Although the penalty for sin which is spiritual death has been paid, we still have our inherrent sin nature that we inherited from Adam. Many get caught up in that our sin nature is our propensity to sin and it is that, but more over it is a propensity to pride. I do not say that torwards anyone here, but in general as human beings that pride is behind most sin. That human being want to be right and will fight back when they have been wronged.

 

[kingskid]

It is "mere" or "meaningless" if that is all a person has through out the course of their entire life. For James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). Granted, James is talking about God directed works and not man directed works. For Paul even said, examine whether you be in the faith or not; know not your own selves and prove whether or not Christ is in you unless your rebrobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).



....

Jason, there are record of people being converted to Christianity that not only did not know Jesus as Savior but simply knew Jesus Christ as a name.
John 1:12-13 KJV
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I was reading about a muslim conversion just a bit ago who only knew the name of Jesus Christ.

I am not sure where your doubts stem from, but I know there is power in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[stuart lawrence]

evident

As I said before, I am willing to make ammends if you merely talk straight with me in what I said specifically you do not believe. As of this date:

(a) I believe you deny that a believer can stop sinning. Is this true? Yes or no?

(b) I believe you hold to the view that in certain cases it is okay for a believer to die unrepentant sin and still be saved. Is this true? Yes or no?

(c) I believe you made the claim that you are not under any law whatsover salvation wise. That all one needs to have is a belief on Jesus as their Savior in order to truly obey God. I also believe you ignore the consequences to certain Commands given by God like 1 John 3:15, Matthew 6:15 as a result of this belief. Is this true? Yes or no?

(d) I believe you said to me that Galatians was telling us that we will be found as sinners. Does this mean you are a sinner right now? If so, what sins are committing that would define you as such?


...

A) I deny any believer will reach sinless perfection on this earth. Does that answer your first question?
B) If you crossed the road today, and as you did so had a fleeting improper thought concerning a woman you saw, then got run over by a bus and died before you could repent of that thought, do you believe God would cast you into hell? I don't. Does that answer your second question?
C) I believe the Christian is under no righteousness of observing the law before God as Paul repeatedly states. The Christian is born again of the Holy Spirit. The law God requires them to keep is placed on their heart at the point of conversion. This means in their heart they want to obey God. Therefore, from conversion a person a truly born again Christians has faith in Christ and wants to obey the law placed in their most inward parts. I believe as Paul wrote. Carry each others burdens(love others) and so fulfil the law of Christ. You have to understand Christs teaching can bed summed up as love God and love your neighbour, the more you follow these laws the better you obey Christ's teaching. You dont obey by looking to the literal letter, but by faith in Christ and the spirit within you, then the fruits of the spirit are seen in you which encompass the heart of the law. Is it true that you obey each and every literal command of Christ, or do you ignore some?
D) I told you that while a person is crossing over from being a slave of sin to being a slaver of righteousness leading to holiness Paul stated they will be evident sinners, for it takes time to cross over from one state to another. I am a sinner in respect of I am not perfect in the flesh, neither are you, the only difference is I am honest about it. This is not a confessional debate Jason. I do not ask you for a list of your sins, stick to debate. If only you could answer as forthrightly as I do.
However, I am not convinced you will not continue to try and twist my words and missaply them, for you cannot biblically refute my beliefs, that is when peo-ple statrt to distort what others state as a deflection from that

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jason
Would you answer my question now?

A simple question Jason that only needs a yes or no answer. Only it will be much simpler if we both understand each other on these things. Do the following statements in your view solely relate to the new covenant or not? If you are unsure, that is fine just say so:

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2Cor3:3

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.’b]'>[b]

17 Then he adds:

‘Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more Heb10:16&17

 

[stuart lawrence]

As I said before, I am willing to make ammends if you merely talk straight with me in what I said specifically you do not believe. As of this date:

(a) I believe you deny that a believer can stop sinning. Is this true? Yes or no?

(b) I believe you hold to the view that in certain cases it is okay for a believer to die unrepentant sin and still be saved. Is this true? Yes or no?

(c) I believe you made the claim that you are not under any law whatsover salvation wise. That all one needs to have is a belief on Jesus as their Savior in order to truly obey God. I also believe you ignore the consequences to certain Commands given by God like 1 John 3:15, Matthew 6:15 as a result of this belief. Is this true? Yes or no?

(d) I believe you said to me that Galatians was telling us that we will be found as sinners. Does this mean you are a sinner right now? If so, what sins are committing that would define you as such?


...

Jason, please respond to the emboldened in the post I replied to of yours, it was only one question, I will place it again here in case you missed it:

Do you claim to look to each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels and obey them all, or do you ignore some of them?

I am sure you will forthrightly respond, as you asked me if I ignored some commands of Christ
Thank you

 

[mercy1061]

Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker


During the justification process we are evident sinners, for the process takes time to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness. Now how would that look to someone who didn't understand the Gospel. They would see someone rejoicing in their salvation while still having evident sin in their life. What would they think. Christ must promote sin. Paul says this is absolutely not true. But if he rebuilt what he had destroyed, and once again lived under a law of righteousness(striving to defeat the sin to be justified before God) he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker, for sin is transgression of the law

Why could you not give that answer Jason?

Saul the pharisee observes Torah, he is no law breaker, he has not rebuilt that which he destroyed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But is there victory over sin in your life? You told me that you do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer cannot stop from sinning.

For can an alcoholic claim victory over alcohol if they say they cannot ever stop? Surely not.


....

But why did Christ die?

Christ died to CONQUER sin.

In Christ, I do not need to conquer sin because Christ did it for me.

Christ is VICTORIOUS over sin, so I do not have to be that.

Why do you feel that you have to be?