True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

Let's take a deep breath guys.

Breath in - Breath out. Keep it civil.

Jason must be civil, he believes he is has reached the stage of sinless perfection!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem was always the moral law, not the legalistic law, as it is in your life and everyone elses. Ah but you are sinless are you not Jason? So you do not need a saviour each day do you. You have moved beyond such a place Goodnoght

Woah. What? The problem is the moral law? That is just crazy talk. God's moral laws are a reflection or an outpouring from God. If we abide in Christ (God), then the Lord will work His good eternal moral laws thru us.

The moral law is the fruits of abiding in the Lord.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason must be civil, he believes he is has reached the stage of sinless perfection!

So now you have resorted to personal insults to make your case?


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jason must be civil, he believes he is has reached the stage of sinless perfection!

There is no sinless perfection. Jesus called John the Baptist of the best of men born of a woman, but even John the Baptist sinned and preached repentance.

Matthew 11:10-11
10 "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.' 11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no sinless perfection. Jesus called John the Baptist of the best of men born of a woman, but even John the Baptist sinned and preached repentance.

Matthew 11:10-11
10 "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.' 11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

The passage says the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. Who is the least in the Kingdom of Heaven? Those who are humble and who serve others under the New Covenant.

As for sinless perfectionism or in a believer to stop sinning:

1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.
David said he hid His Word (i.e.God's Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord.
Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you.
Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin.
Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." If Jesus did not mean what he said, he would have been lying.
Jesus says we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation. How can you sin if you are not tempted and striving not to sin?
Paul says be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil. How can you give place to the devil if all future sin is paid for?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Common verses used against Sinless Perfectionism are:

1 John 1:8 and Romans 3:10 (or Romans 3:23).

As for 1 John 1:8: Well, anyone who says they have fellowship with Him and does not keep His Commandments is a liar (See 1 John 2:3-6). 1 John 1:6 says the same thing. He that says he has fellowship and walks in darkness is a liar and the truth is not in Him. So if you say you walk in darkness on occasion and yet have fellowship with Him, you are lying. So these verses refute any idea that one can say they can abide in darkness or break God's Commands without being a liar.

1 John 1:8 is written to the brethren warning them against false believers who thought they had no sin whatsoever on any level (1 John 2:26). So for these false beleivers, confessing sin was a pointless exercise. This is very similar to what many Antinomians believe today (and what they have told me many times). They believe that confession of sin is not necessary for them to be forgiven if they do sin. They say they are forgiven of their sin: Past, present, and future. They have no sin spiritually to worry about. They are saying they have no sin on a spiritual level and there is no need to confess so as to be forgiven of sin. Yet, what does 1 John 1:9 say? Let's go ahead and read it.

1 John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So 1 John 1:9 is saying you have to confess in order to be forgiven. The real believer recognizes sin if it arises and deals with it appropriately.

But wait..... there's more!

1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Again, walking in the light is in context to keeping His commandments. For the very next chapter (which I said before) says this in 1 John 2:3-6. So in order to be forgiven, one has to confess and forsake sin. For he that confesses and forsake sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

As for Romans 3:10 (or Romans 3:23):

This is in context to verse 11 (Romans 3:11) that says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."​

So if one proposes that all have sinned or that there is no one living righteously (in the present tense and not in regards to their entire lives), then we must also conclude that nobody understands the things of God and nobody seeks after God, too.

Therefore... we realize that this is talking about how all people have at one point sinned in their life (And they are in need of a Savior) and it is not talking about faithful believers in Jesus Christ who have accepted the Lord and have turned away from their old life of sin by His power.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

How am I insulting you? You are the one stressing being sinless. I am only repeating what you keep stating

 

[stuart lawrence]

So now you have resorted to personal insults to make your case?


...

You have said performing perfectly is not hard to do. So do you perform perfectly or not? If you tell me you don't I wont tell anyone you claim sinless perfection. Though as you claim performing perfect is not hard to do I doubt you would admit to any slip ups

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jason had lowered the standard of Gods laws, if he actually believes what he is saying. If he hasn't lowered them there is only one other possible conclusion you could draw

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13 GW).

"for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever." (Romans 8:13 AMP)

"If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." (Romans 8:13 ERV).

"[For] If you ·use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want [live according to the flesh], you will ·die spiritually [die]. But if you ·use the Spirit’s help to [by the Spirit] ·stop doing the wrong things you do with [put to death the deeds of] your body, you will ·have true life [live]." (Romans 8:13 EXB).

"For if you live according to your human nature, you are going to die; but if by the Spirit you put to death your sinful actions, you will live." (Romans 8:13 GNT).


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You have said performing perfectly is not hard to do. So do you perform perfectly or not? If you tell me you don't I wont tell anyone you claim sinless perfection. Though as you claim performing perfect is not hard to do I doubt you would admit to any slip ups

Alcoholics sometimes slip up on their road to recovery in being alcohol free. That does not mean that the goal of being alcohol free is not possible. Oh, and yes, I have sinned as a believer. But I immediately confess of that sin and ask for God's help to overcome it. So I am not claiming I have always maintained perfection my entire time as a believer. I believe and have faith in God's Word one day soon (could be tomorrow or the next day) whereby I will cease from sin permanently. I trust in His Word is true and walk by sight unseen and not in what I can see. My life and other people's lives are not the standard. God's Word is the standard and I believe His Word where it teaches that a saint can cease from sin (in various passages).



...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Woah. What? The problem is the moral law? That is just crazy talk.




....

Its crazy talk to say the moral laws were always the problem where obedience was concerned? Are you serious?
King David wouldn't have agreed with you. He committed adultery and was responsible for an innocent man being killed
The Pharisees could faultlessly obey the legalistic law as could Paul but Paul could not obey the moral law as a Pharisee, neither could the other Pharisees. They were full of everything unclean on the inside. That refers to the moral law. I could go on and on. Jason open your eyes to reality

 

[stuart lawrence]

I tak

Alcoholics sometimes slip up on their road to recovery in being alcohol free. That does not mean that the goal of being alcohol free is not possible. Oh, and yes, I have sinned as a believer. But I immediately confess of that sin and ask for God's help to overcome it. So I am not claiming I have always maintained perfection my entire time as a believer. I believe and have faith in God's Word one day soon (could be tomorrow or the next day) whereby I will cease from sin permanently. I trust in His Word is true and walk by sight unseen and not in what I can see. My life and other people's lives are not the standard. God's Word is the standard and I believe His Word where it teaches that a saint can cease from sin (in various passages).



...

I take it from the above you do not now claim sinless perfectionism. That is honest. I hope you will not now demand it of anyone else

 

[ToBeLoved]

The passage says the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. Who is the least in the Kingdom of Heaven? Those who are humble and who serve others under the New Covenant.

As for sinless perfectionism or in a believer to stop sinning:

1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.
David said he hid His Word (i.e.God's Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord.
Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you.
Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin.
Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." If Jesus did not mean what he said, he would have been lying.
Jesus says we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation. How can you sin if you are not tempted and striving not to sin?
Paul says be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil. How can you give place to the devil if all future sin is paid for?


...

I've had this conversation with people who believe as you do before.

We are called by Jesus to love, not to sinless perfection. To put as your greatest feat to be sinless sets up the scenario that your entire walk with Christ is about you.

The people I know that are like you in this belief are usually all Bout themselves, but what did Jesus say the second most important commandment is? Or even the most important commandment?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Its crazy talk to say the moral laws were always the problem where obedience was concerned? Are you serious?

Where do morals come from?
Can anything good that comes from God be bad?

King David wouldn't have agreed with you. He committed adultery and was responsible for an innocent man being killed

If David trusted in God's laws of not committing adultery and murder, then he wouldn't have done those things. He drifted away from God and let sin enter his life whereby he needed to confess his sin to the Lord to stay right with Him.

The Pharisees could faultlessly obey the legalistic law as could Paul but Paul could not obey the moral law as a Pharisee, neither could the other Pharisees. They were full of everything unclean on the inside. That refers to the moral law. I could go on and on. Jason open your eyes to reality

There is no such thing as a legalistic law unless it was invented by man. God's ceremonial laws and judicial laws were once binding for the believer while under the Old Covenant.

Anyways, now you are making a case for the moral law when you were just talking against it? Your not making any sense. You are either for God's moral laws or you are not.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I tak
I take it from the above you do not now claim sinless perfectionism. That is honest. I hope you will not now demand it of anyone else

I believe Sinless Perfectionism is the goal (for my life and for the life of all believers to shoot for). For it would not be wrong for me as an alcoholic to warn another alcoholic to stop drinking if I was in a program in trying to stop in drinking and I was not getting drunk every night (like I used to). Momentary slip ups does not equate with habitually living in a particular sin as if it controls or enslaves you.


...

 

[ToBeLoved]

If David trusted in God's laws of not committing adultery and murder, then he wouldn't have done those things. He drifted away from God and let sin enter his life whereby he needed to confess his sin to the Lord to stay right with

...

Yes David. Do you know that King David's faith was one of the strongest in the Bible? And God loved David. That is written specifically about him because of his great faith. Not sinless perfection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've had this conversation with people who believe as you do before.

We are called by Jesus to love, not to sinless perfection. To put as your greatest feat to be sinless sets up the scenario that your entire walk with Christ is about you.

The people I know that are like you in this belief are usually all Bout themselves, but what did Jesus say the second most important commandment is? Or even the most important commandment?

Not at all. Walking perfectly has nothing to do with me. I would not boast in ever acheiving such a thing but I would boast in Christ (God) and His mighty power that works within all believers. I have given you many verses to examine. It is up to you if you want to believe them at face value or not.

As for the Second Commandment: Yes, we fulfill the moral aspect of the Old Law if we love our neighbor (Romans 13:8-10). But we are also to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, and soul. There are many Commands in the New Testament (1, 050 + NT Commands) that can help us to express our love for the Lord in honoring the 1st and 2nd greatest commands. That does not mean we are exempt in disobeying them. Yes, we have God's grace to fall back upon if we sin. But this is not so as to give us a license to sin, but it so as to help us to overcome sin.

For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).


....

 

[stuart lawrence]

Where do morals come from?
Can anything good that comes from God be bad?



If David trusted in God's laws of not committing adultery and murder, then he wouldn't have done those things. He drifted away from God and let sin enter his life whereby he needed to confess his sin to the Lord to stay right with Him.



There is no such thing as a legalistic law unless it was invented by man. God's ceremonial laws and judicial laws were once binding for the believer while under the Old Covenant.

Anyways, now you are making a case for the moral law when you were just talking against it? Your not making any sense. You are either for God's moral laws or you are not.


...

Don't be silly Jason. Gods moral laws are perfect as Paul stresses in rom7:12. However, sin used what was good and holy to bring condemnation to him through the moral law. Every christian is for the moral law, but that does not change the fact it is the moral law that is the problem to keep. And don't be silly by saying there is no legalistic law.
You just cannot see beyond some of the literal letter can you. You need to explain scripture, not simply quote it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How am I insulting you? You are the one stressing being sinless. I am only repeating what you keep stating

Insults can sometimes go beyond what the words are actually saying. So you did not in any way say what you did in any way shape or form as a way of an attack personally?


...