True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

I believe Sinless Perfectionism is the goal (for my life and for the life of all believers to shoot for). For it would not be wrong for me as an alcoholic to warn another alcoholic to stop drinking if I was in a program in trying to stop in drinking and I was not getting drunk every night (like I used to). Momentary slip ups does not equate with habitually living in a particular sin as if it controls or enslaves you.


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I think it is wonderful you do not get drunk every night as you used to, praise God. Look if chatting to me even slightly makes you think of having a drink tell me and i will stop chatting to you, I mean that

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don't be silly Jason. Gods moral laws are perfect as Paul stresses in rom7:12. However, sin used what was good and holy to bring condemnation to him through the moral law. Every christian is for the moral law, but that does not change the fact it is the moral law that is the problem to keep. And don't be silly by saying there is no legalistic law.

The Old Covenant Law as a whole is abrogated. Yes, certain aspects of the moral law have been carried over into the New Covenant. But not the ceremonial laws or the judicial laws. Just do a study on God's Commandments in the New Testament and you will see it for yourself. But I know you will never really do that. God's Commands frighten you.

You just cannot see beyond some of the literal letter can you. You need to explain scripture, not simply quote it

I can say the same for you, too.


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[stuart lawrence]

Insults can sometimes go beyond what the words are actually saying. So you did not in any way say what you did in any way shape or form as a way of an attack personally?


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It may have been a sarcastic comment, but please Jason, I have been honest, can you be? You have put words in my mouth and claimed I believe things I do not believe. And you have been untruthful concerning a chapter of a book you hadn't read. So please, be a little honest, don't say you have behaved perfectly and it is just the other person always at fault

 

[stuart lawrence]

Th

The Old Covenant Law as a whole is abrogated. Yes, certain aspects of the moral law have been carried over into the New Covenant. But not the ceremonial laws or the judicial laws. Just do a study on God's Commandments in the New Testament and you will see it for yourself. But I know you will never really do that. God's Commands frighten you.



I can say the same for you, too.


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The above response does bot respond to the points in the post it is replying to
Jason, I spend much time explaining what scripture means, I honestly don't see you do that

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think it is wonderful you do not get drunk every night as you used to, praise God. Look if chatting to me even slightly makes you think of having a drink tell me and i will stop chatting to you, I mean that

While that is a noble thing to say, I believe you are doing damage to others by your belief here. Telling people there is no consequence to sin salvation wise by the fact that all they need is a "belief on Jesus" is misleading because it will either lead them into sin, or it will eventually do so in time. Life teaches us that if you take away the consequences of something, then people are going to do that thing (because they know there are no consequences anymore in doing whatever that thing was). In other words, it would sort of be like a certain State telling people they can speed on the high ways now and ignore the speed limit that is posted. What do you think will happen if the State made such a declaration? More people are going to speed. It is a logical conclusion. You tell people there are no consequences to sin, and that is exactly what they are going to do. They are going to sin and not have any fear of the Lord (Whereby men depart from evil).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Th
The above response does bot respond to the points in the post it is replying to
Jason, I spend much time explaining what scripture means, I honestly don't see you do that

Your kidding right? I have responded to many of the verses you have posted. There have been a few posts that I have not responded to because I was busy working. But if you feel I have missed a verse, I will be more than happy to explain it. Oh, and when I do explain a verse, in some cases you acted like I did not explain it. Maybe this is the source of your confusion.

Also, I have put forth many, many verses that have went unexplained by you. So I just do not see your statement here above as being true at all. I believe I have responded more to what you said with Scripture then you have with the verses I posted.


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[stuart lawrence]

While that is a noble thing to say, I believe you are doing damage to others by your belief here. Telling people there is no consequence to sin salvation wise by the fact that all they need is a belief on Jesus, is misleading because it will either lead them into sin, or it will eventually do so in time. Life teaches us that if you take away the consequences of something, then people are going to do that thing (because they know there are no consequences anymore in doing whatever that thing was). In other words, it would be a certain State telling people they can speed on the high ways now and ignore the speed limit that is posted now. What do you think will happen if the State made such a declaration? More people are going to speed. It is a logical conclusion. You tell people there are no consequences to sin, and that is exactly what they are going to do. They are going to sin and not have any fear of the Lord (Whereby men depart from evil).


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A good point there. No matter what country you live in there is a penalty for any law you break, to dissuade you from breaking it. For in your heart you do not want to obey all your countries laws, they are not placed on your heart. However the law God desires you to keep is on your heart and if you break it you suffer because of that. If only you could understand it is a two part covenant, and what that means. If you withdraw the penalty of sin from a true christian, they will simply love God more. Praise him greatly and far better obey the heart of Gods laws

 

[stuart lawrence]

Y

Your kidding right? I have responded to many of the verses you have posted. There have been a few posts that I have not responded to because I was busy working. But if you feel I have missed a verse, I will be more than happy to explain it. Oh, and when I do explain a verse, in some cases you acted like I did not explain it. Maybe this is the source of your confusion.

Also, I have put forth many, many verses that have went unexplained by you. So I just do not see your statement here above as being true at all.


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You seem to respond to some points but not others. As I told you. I wrote a very detailed post on circumcision of the heart/ being born again. You only responded to one point, then put a lot of scriptures up and expected me to reply to all of them. Come on Jason, fairs fair

 

[ToBeLoved]

The passage says the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he. Who is the least in the Kingdom of Heaven? Those who are humble and who serve others under the New Covenant.

As for sinless perfectionism or in a believer to stop sinning:

1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.
Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless.
David said he hid His Word (i.e.God's Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord.
Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you.
Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin.
Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." If Jesus did not mean what he said, he would have been lying.
Jesus says we are to pray so as not to be led into temptation. How can you sin if you are not tempted and striving not to sin?
Paul says be ye angry and sin not and do not give place to the devil. How can you give place to the devil if all future sin is paid for?


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And ....

Don't you think I have heard that same argument before?

And those same verses I have seen written?

1 Peter 4:8-10
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. 9Use hospitality one to another without grudging. 10As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So. why would charity cover a multitude of sins unless charity was the aim?

'Above all things'.

Do you have charity, hospitality?

Do you give it without grudging?
Do you minister your gift from God to others?
Are you a good steward of the grace of God?
Do you do ALL things to the ability that God has given you?

If yes to all this, plus you have no sin?

See there is always room for more with God. To love God is one wonderful, very very important thing.

But what about others?

I don't hear you being very patient, charitable and loving in this thread?

Who are you in Christ?

Only your sin?

If yes, but then sin is forgiven by repentance, so what about love?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Y
You seem to respond to some points but not others. As I told you. I wrote a very detailed post on circumcision of the heart/ being born again. You only responded to one point, then put a lot of scriptures up and expected me to reply to all of them. Come on Jason, fairs fair

Did you ever think your point might be loaded like a bake potato and does not exist and my reply was merely a way of refuting it?

In other words, it would be like asking a loaded question that is not true. For example: I can say, "Do you think purple squirrels are more funny or the squirrels that glow in the dark?" If my reply is that I say that no such squirrels exist, that does not mean that your belief that purple squirrels or glow in the dark squirrels exist and or that I did not give you a proper reply.

If a question is false and not based on reality, then I am free to say it is not true, and then turn around and offer what I believe is the truth.

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[stuart lawrence]

Did you ever think your point might be loaded like a bake potato and does not exist and my reply was merely a way of refuting it?

In other words, it would be like asking a loaded question that is not true. For example: I can say, "Do you think purple squirrels are more funny or the squirrels that glow in the dark?" If my reply is that I say that no such squirrels exist, that does not mean that your belief that purple squirrels or glow in the dark squirrels exist and or that I did not give you a proper reply. The questions if false and not based on reality.


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No, I think you simply cannot refute the scriptures

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A good point there. No matter what country you live in there is a penalty for any law you break, to dissuade you from breaking it. For in your heart you do not want to obey all your countries laws, they are not placed on your heart. However the law God desires you to keep is on your heart and if you break it you suffer because of that. If only you could understand it is a two part covenant, and what that means. If you withdraw the penalty of sin from a true christian, they will simply love God more. Praise him greatly and far better obey the heart of Gods laws

If it is a good point, then why not believe it?


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[Bible Highlighter]

No, I think you simply cannot refute the scriptures

I can say the same for you.


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[stuart lawrence]

I

Did you ever think your point might be loaded like a bake potato and does not exist and my reply was merely a way of refuting it?

In other words, it would be like asking a loaded question that is not true. For example: I can say, "Do you think purple squirrels are more funny or the squirrels that glow in the dark?" If my reply is that I say that no such squirrels exist, that does not mean that your belief that purple squirrels or glow in the dark squirrels exist and or that I did not give you a proper reply.

If a question is false and not based on reality, then I am free to say it is not true, and then turn around and offer what I believe is the truth.

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M serious about this. Are you sure heated debate doesn't stress you and make you think of alcohol? I hope not because if it did pls stop chatting to me. The devil will use anything to turn you back to the bottle. My cousins an alcoholic. Ten years ago it all came to a head. He ended up in hospital. Hid father went to his house to clean it up and found 24 empty vodka bottles under the bed. Anyway, he went to AA and never drank again. He met a woman at AA who doesn't drink now either, they have been together about eight years. He still goes to AA to help others and does work in his spare time for the organisation

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And ....

Don't you think I have heard that same argument before?

And those same verses I have seen written?

1 Peter 4:8-10
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. 9Use hospitality one to another without grudging. 10As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So. why would charity cover a multitude of sins unless charity was the aim?

'Above all things'.

Do you have charity, hospitality?

Do you give it without grudging?
Do you minister your gift from God to others?
Are you a good steward of the grace of God?
Do you do ALL things to the ability that God has given you?

If yes to all this, plus you have no sin?

See there is always room for more with God. To love God is one wonderful, very very important thing.

But what about others?

I don't hear you being very patient, charitable and loving in this thread?

Who are you in Christ?

Only your sin?

If yes, but then sin is forgiven by repentance, so what about love?

Where was I not loving? Did I attack anyone personally? Attacking the belief and not the person does not equate with not being loving. You have to show me what I said was an actual personal hateful attack towards another here for it to be considered a non-loving statement. Disagreements about beliefs is not the same thing. For I am commanded by God to love the sinner and hate the sin. I believe false beliefs that lead people away from the true God are sinful.

Also, the very point you make refutes what you believe. If love covers a multitude of sins, then how was your sin paid for past, present, and future on the cross? I thought Christ took away all sin?

In addition, you did not actually disprove what 1 Peter 4:1 actually says, either. Please explain how your belief lines up with what is said in that verse (in regards to how those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin).


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[stuart lawrence]

If it is a good point, then why not believe it?


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I guess you didn't read the post or you couldn't have made that reply

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I
M serious about this. Are you sure heated debate doesn't stress you and make you think of alcohol? I hope not because if it did pls stop chatting to me. The devil will use anything to turn you back to the bottle. My cousins an alcoholic. Ten years ago it all came to a head. He ended up in hospital. Hid father went to his house to clean it up and found 24 empty vodka bottles under the bed. Anyway, he went to AA and never drank again. He met a woman at AA who doesn't drink now either, they have been together about eight years. He still goes to AA to help others and does work in his spare time for the organisation

I am not an alcoholic (and never have been). Never struggled with drinking in any way. I merely used it as an example.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I guess you didn't read the post or you couldn't have made that reply

I read it. That does not mean I believed it.


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[ToBeLoved]

What does the Word say about if we sin?

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Notice that it says that 'HE is faithful and righteous'. Not us. Not you. Not me.

Jesus is faithful and righteous.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He if faithful and just to forgive us our sins IF.... IF.... we confess our sins. Anyways, I have already explained 1 John 1:8 here:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...tional-security.7914686/page-32#post-68817209

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