True Circumcision

[Soyeong]

Yes, God used Abraham to bring faith to all. The problem is when attempting to mix the Law with faith. Law was not of faith but of works (Gal 3:12), which was the covenant God had with Israel, that He would bless those who believe in Him and obeyed Him (esp. via the Decalogue).

Those who have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong will obey His instructions instead leaning on our own understanding. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so again the way to have faith in God is by obeying what He has instructed, while for you to interpret Galatians 3:10-12 in a way that denies that what God has instructed is of faith is to deny that we should have faith in God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so there is a law that is of works that we should not mix with faith, which is works of the law, however, there is also a law that is of faith that our faith upholds, which is the Law of God. The law that our faith upholds in Romans 3:31 can't be referring to the law that is not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12, so the problem is that you are mixing the law that our faith upholds with the law that is not of faith. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that obedience to works of the law is part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to anything that God has instructed, which is why they are not of faith in God, unlike the Law of God.

These passages show the passing away of the Law: Heb 10:9; also 7:18, 19; 8:7, 8; 2Co 3:11; Eph 2:15; Col 2:14; Gal 3:24, 25

Thanks for the reply and God bless!

In Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law, so if you are correctly interpreting those verses, then those who reject their truth would be correctly acting in accordance with what God has instructed His people to do. In Psalms 119:142, the Law of God is truth, so you are interpreting those verses in a way that is in opposition to the truth, which is how we can be confident that you are misinterpreting them. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has said, so again even if you are correctly interpreting those verses, that would mean that we should disregard them in favor of following God instead.

 

[WordSword]

Those who have faith in God to correctly divide between right and wrong will obey His instructions instead leaning on our own understanding. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so again the way to have faith in God is by obeying what He has instructed, while for you to interpret Galatians 3:10-12 in a way that denies that what God has instructed is of faith is to deny that we should have faith in God.

Not sure I'm understanding you, I'll keep looking at what you're saying.

 

[Soyeong]

Not sure I'm understanding you, I'll keep looking at what you're saying.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, let me know if there is anything you want me to clarify.

 

[Gup20]

Yes, God used Abraham to bring faith to all. The problem is when attempting to mix the Law with faith. Law was not of faith but of works (Gal 3:12), which was the covenant God had with Israel, that He would bless those who believe in Him and obeyed Him (esp. via the Decalogue).

These passages show the passing away of the Law: Heb 10:9; also 7:18, 19; 8:7, 8; 2Co 3:11; Eph 2:15; Col 2:14; Gal 3:24, 25

Thanks for the reply and God bless!

"The Law" is Moses covenant -- the Mosaic covenant. Abraham's covenant is a covenant of righteousness by faith.

Take a look at Paul's logic for why the Abrahamic covenant is not a works-based covenant; simply put, the law wouldn't exist for 430 more years when Abraham's covenant of faith in Jesus Christ was ratified. Paul's argument is that the covenant of faith PRE-dates the Law of Moses, and so it stands APART FROM the Law of Moses because the Law of Moses didn't yet exist when Abraham's covenant was ratified, and once ratified it can no longer have conditions added to it. So the covenant of faith is APART FROM the Law of Moses.

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Gal 3:14-18 NASB95 - 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, (NOTE: who's covenant? Abraham's covenant) yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

The Christian covenant of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ was given 430 years BEFORE the law, but stood unfulfilled until Jesus. Because it was given before The Law of Moses, it stands apart from the Mosaic covenant. The Mosaic covenant does not add conditions to the Abrahamic covenant. But the Abrahamic covenant is still from the Torah, so it has the force of Law. It is the legal framework that Christianity is built upon. Why is righteousness by faith apart from the law? Why is faith apart from works? Because that covenant was ratified 430 years before the law of Moses and once ratified it cannot be modified or changed. Christianity coming through Abraham's covenant is the MOST POWERFUL argument in scripture against works.

Which of the 613 Laws did Abraham follow to be credited with righteousness? None. They hadn't been given yet. They wouldn't come for another 430 years after Abraham's covenant was ratified in Genesis 15.

 

[WordSword]

Which of the 613 Laws did Abraham follow to be credited with righteousness? None. They hadn't been given yet. They wouldn't come for another 430 years after Abraham's covenant was ratified in Genesis 15.

The Law could never establish righteousness in man, but the Law is righteous because it is by God. It required being sinless (no sin nature or old man) to be righteous by the Law; otherwise it's just mimicking. One is righteous if he is sinless (only Christ).

 

[Soyeong]

The Law could never establish righteousness in man, but the Law is righteous because it is by God. It required being sinless (no sin nature or old man) to be righteous by the Law; otherwise it's just mimicking. One is righteous if he is sinless (only Christ).

Righteousness is a character trait of God that is expressed by doing what is righteous and God's law is righteous because it is His instructions for how to do what is righteous, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is by grace through faith, and become righteous is becoming someone who does what is righteous by grace through faith. Even if someone managed to live in sinless obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), which is because it was never given as a means of resulting in becoming righteous, which is why there are many other verses that speak against that fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of becoming righteous by grace through faith.

 

[WordSword]

Righteousness is a character trait of God that is expressed by doing what is righteous and God's law is righteous because it is His instructions for how to do what is righteous, not for how to become righteous.

The thing is, that we can do righteousness but it's never our own--but Christ's! We won't have our own righteousness until we loose the "old man." Thus it's all the Lord Jesus' righteousness that we have and none of it is ours; and this is plenty good enough, to be a part of God and be used of Him.

 

[Soyeong]

The thing is, that we can do righteousness but it's never our own--but Christ's! We won't have our own righteousness until we loose the "old man." Thus it's all the Lord Jesus' righteousness that we have and none of it is ours; and this is plenty good enough, to be a part of God and be used of Him.

It is incorrect for someone to think that obediently relying on God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness is something that can be done on our own. The Son is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so among other things, he is the embodiment of righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who he is. The Son expressed the righteousness of God by living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also the way that we become when we become the righteousness of God.

 

[WordSword]

It is incorrect for someone to think that obediently relying on God's instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness is something that can be done on our own. The Son is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so among other things, he is the embodiment of righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who he is. The Son expressed the righteousness of God by living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also the way that we become when we become the righteousness of God.

Amen, the saints are walking in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus!

 

[Gup20]

The Law could never establish righteousness in man, but the Law is righteous because it is by God. It required being sinless (no sin nature or old man) to be righteous by the Law; otherwise it's just mimicking. One is righteous if he is sinless (only Christ).

This is interesting. Where do you see The Law say one is required to be sinless (having never committed sin) to be righteous? I'd like to study that more. I guess I sort of felt that way, but I also see atonement and the sacrificial system as a sort of assumption that the followers of the law would not be sinless.

 

[WordSword]

This is interesting. Where do you see The Law say one is required to be sinless (having never committed sin) to be righteous? I'd like to study that more. I guess I sort of felt that way, but I also see atonement and the sacrificial system as a sort of assumption that the followers of the law would not be sinless.

There is no direct Scripture reference to this, and thus it is inferred. The idea of the law was all about sacrifice, thus only Christ could be the sacrifice, because only He is sinless. Anyone can mimic obedience, but the need was to go beyond mincing to actual flawless sacrifice.

Saints will never be sinless in this life due to the continued indwelling of the old man or sin nature (Ro 7:17, 20); but being guiltless is what the goal is. We continue to learn from the old man to exercise our faith in Christ's expiation for our sins.

 

[Soyeong]

This is interesting. Where do you see The Law say one is required to be sinless (having never committed sin) to be righteous? I'd like to study that more. I guess I sort of felt that way, but I also see atonement and the sacrificial system as a sort of assumption that the followers of the law would not be sinless.

Indeed, the giving of the sacrificial system demonstrates that it was never a requirement for us to be sinless, and even if someone managed to live in sinless obedience to it, then they still would not earn their righteousness as the result of their obedience as if it were a wage (Romans 4:1-5), so that has been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.