True atheists?

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

Which atheist argument?
If you mean the claim that there are no gods? Not an argument, a belief.
The judgement that there are almost certainly no gods is not affected by the utility of this judgement. The point I am making is that truth does not matter except in so far as what humans believe to be true has consequences for their utility.
I suppose what I am getting at is that single-minded pursuit of "the truth" without considering the utility of it is asinine.
This is not a simple concept to grasp. Especially if one has been brought up and educated to believe that empirically verifiable truth is all that matters. It isn't. And it isn't even for those who claim it is. We are all emotionally motivated animals and what matters is that which matters emotionally, whether it is empirically supported or not.

Why is it insane? Curiousity and an obsession with the truth are built into me, it's not like I can change them. The main point is that I can't buy into a lie simply for the sake of expedience.

That's nuts.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

Fair enough.

The reason I ask is that I would like some sort of definitive position on this issue. If there isn't one, this reduces my clarity on what the Buddha had said himself.

We don't exactly know. There are dozens, if not hundreds of schools of Buddhism based on what people think he said. Many of them look like regular religions; many do not. Christians at least have the advantage of having purged any conflicting stories about Christ early on - they have less material to work with.

One of the key differences between my worldview and Buddhism's is that he seemed to believe that the karma (intentional action) created by one individual could reside as "seeds" in the Alaya (sp?) layer of consciousness to create vipaka (fruit) in another individual, or such is my understanding based on my conversations with another Buddhist. Just how this can happen is mysterious and implausible to me. If he had never said this, this would suggest that Buddhism is closer to my worldview than I had thought.

This is not a necessary tenet. The four noble truths and the eightfold path - or as I like to express it (Buddhism for Dummies):

1. People suffer.
2. Why do they suffer? Because they want things they can't have, like food and health and happiness.
3. How do we fix this? Either give them the things they want (impossible from a practical point of view) or teach them not to want them.
4. Do the latter. Problem solved.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

Go away.


eudaimonia,

Mark

He's playing Buddha games with you. Embrace the lesson.

 

[Gishin]

1. Sending out a line of mercy to an atheist...

2. Wouldn't you like to be pleasantly surprised? Dream with me for a moment...

3. Wouldn't it be great if you suddenly had a sense that there was something more? Something more than the natural course of life and death? When you bury your friends or family, that there was a certainty that there was more than the end of theirs or your current identity? That the sum total of all of your moments, hopes, dreams, and accomplishments did not vanish (to borrow a movie line) "like tears in the rain"?

4. Forget (for a moment) everything you know about how you perceive church or even many Christians you've met.

Imagine if your life was like mine...

5. My life today was one where I got up to go to church, and I knew I was going to truly locate the mercy of God. The manifest, tangible, anointing. The refreshing presence of the Lord that you cannot make up. Even though I had come up well short of His desire for me, I entreated His mercy and was reconciled and entered into His divine peace. His love for me for fulfilling and full of hope. Even though my life in "the natural" (the place of naturally occurring circumstance, at the seeming whim of nature) is currently totally lacking, and somewhat dismal, I had an inner sense of God's plan and hand on my life. It sustained me. As surely as I know He has worked in my life to restore and make new, that He would complete the work that He started.

6. God has already established many times within me, that His Word (as contained in the Bible) is His absolute truth. Within the context that each passage was written, I know that His truth is more sure than any contradictory circumstance.

7. If I am obedient, I'll walk in joy, peace, love, and fulfillment, all the days of my life. I'll know His voice on the inside of me more clearly. The more I give of myself to Him and others in service, the more His love will flow through me like a vine to the branches. The more I align myself with His will, the more manifest power works in me to bring His change through me to others.

8. I realize that you think I am deceived to say this about His Word, but I have already had the experience of Him coming to me personally in response to my heart's cry and I was reborn. One cannot possibly fake this. His love is what you want to experience forever. It's what you want to continue in when you pass from this world.

The part about His Word being true, when He took up residence on the inside of me, He made this clear, as He has many times. He has magnified His Word above all His name. His name is above every name. The Word was given to provide a sure foundation for all persons. That we might overcome when we are judged...

9. Consider this as something of a litmus test. When you're ready my words to you, were you really thoughtfully considering them, or did you kind of skim over them, as something you've heard before? Was there something in you that felt like attaching a phrase like "ad nauseum"?

10. The condition of our heart is what enables us to be able to "see" or "hear". The same thing applies to believers. If they approach hearing their church service's message with: "I've heard it all before!" They won't hear with the ear of the spirit. Even Christians. The ability to "hear' or "see" with the spiritual body has everything to do with being humble before God, seeking mercy, and wanting truth.

11. We know from the Bible, that your being has three parts. It has a spirit, a soul, and a body. Your spirit and soul work together and will remain existent forever. Your soul is to your spirit very much like your brain is to your body. Your spirit has every part that your physical body has. Jesus mentioned Lazurus who was in torment after he died (stay with me, I'm really NOT going to talk about Hell), wanted Lazurus to dip his fingers into water to cool his mouth. He had a body that was spiritual. Your spiritual body now is housed in your physical body. When your physical body dies, your spirit body will take leave of your physical body and go to where the state of being you had here on earth. Life or death. (With God or without God.)

12. My point is that your spirit has eyes and ears. For God's grace to manifest in your life, you want to avoid "heart/spirit conditions" of anything that resembles terms like "willfully or boastfully ignorant", "prideful", claims to sight in moments where you can't see, in spiritual matters, etc. If you are, you'll be resisting the Spirit of grace that wants to reach out to people as yourself, who are unaware of the presence of the reality of God.

13. The one thing the agnostic has going for himself over the aetheist. The agnostic hasn't made up his mind and closed himself over the issue. He's hoping to be pleasantly surprised. One thing I have learned about walking with God: Our words "permit" or "loose" blessings or curses. If we render a final judgment on something (with our words), we (to our destriment) "loose" a spiritual "force" upon our own lives that can keep God's grace from bringing us truth and liberty in that area.

14. So if you entertain in the back of your mind even the most remote possibility that if God were really alive and that He really cared about you enough to let you know, and that if He were to hold you accountable for what He "supposedly" said, then He would certainly make a point to get through to you, in some way, in order for Him to be fair and just...

15. I would challenge you to make a "move of faith" however minute by moving away from your stance of what is seen to be before God: "Hey everyone (God and all His creation)! I've happily rendered final judgment on myself, and am convinced that God isn't real, and that I'm not accountable to anyone."

You might eventually find that rather than opposing yourself and closing your eyes and ears (which you truly possess), that God might make what would otherwise be a wasted effort and begin to provide something to see with your spiritual senses that will turn you in the direction of true fulfillment (which means actually knowing God, and finding true peace (not just natural peace) and not just finding "church").

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My Laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."
Heb 8:10-12

1. I appreciate the sentiment.
2. I probably would be, but I can't believe something just because I wish it to be true.
3. Indeed, but like I said, wishing for it does not make it true. I find it better to live my life the best I can while I can, then to hope for something I don't believe is true.
4. Ok.
5. You can get the same rush doing anything you feel is fulfilling, from spending time with family to fishing alone on a lake to any number of things. Many people do find it in Church, but I believe it has to do with the social aspect and already held beliefs than it does divine presence.
6. So does EVERY single other religious person on this planet. How do I know you're correct and those other religions are wrong when they all claim they KNOW the truth?
7. Obedient to who? God or your Church? If God talks directly to you, why do you need a Church? Personally, I don't find it a virtue to be simply obedient as an adult.
8. Yes, it can be faked. My sister felt the holy ghost pass through her when she laid hands on a cancer patient, felt the touch of the spirit of the Lord on her and miraculously, the patient was healed! She KNEW it. Turns out the cancer patient never had cancer at all, and was an attention seeking fraud, but my sister to this day believes something happened. The fact is there are scientific explanations for the rush of euphoria you get during religious rituals, and I can't ignore them in favor of believing it's God.
9. I've read them, I never believed them. Other "de-converts" here will have to answer that one.
10. I'm sorry, I can't shut off my brain and make myself believe.
11. I don't believe in the Bible.
12. But at the beginning you asked me to forget everything I know, to return to ignorance. I'm not fighting or resisting the holy spirit. It's a non issue to me. I look at the bible and it is so incredible I simply can't believe it, even if I wanted to. It makes outrageous claims, contradicts itself, and even it's own followers say conflicting things, there have been spin offs and sequels, canon and non canon works. I could just as soon be a Jedi as I could a Christian.
13. I could be wrong, I just find it very unlikely. So far, no one has brought forth a better argument than "I believe it and you should too" and until someone does, I'll remain an atheist.
14. Like I said, I can't do it. He could manifest right now in front of me and in his inifinite power convert me on the spot, but he won't. It's going to take more than wishful thinking and my own imagination to convince me.
15. We are accountable, to the society we built for ourselves. We as a society have moved past the need for Gods to explain the unknown to us. That is what Nietzsche meant when he said "God is dead".

 

[Gishin]

It wouldn't hurt you to consider that there is purpose and divine order for everything would it? Take a listen to some of the NDEs (Near Death Experiences) people have had on youtube. They were clinically dead for a time. There was more...

NDE's have been debunked for years. You can experience the same thing if you get a concussion.

 

[Gishin]

Hey. You don't talk like that to master Yoda.

I was hoping for some more koans. I love them.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Are atheists ignorant? If knowledge is 'true justified belief' (TJB), and atheists lack belief, then they lack knowledge. (I don't necessarily think so, but don't want to do the working out, and it seems plausible.

(I mean "weak" or "negative" atheists, btw, who lack belief in God, rather than believe "there is no God")

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Sending out a line of mercy to an atheist...

And just who do you think you are?

Wouldn't you like to be pleasantly surprised? Dream with me for a moment...

Wouldn't it be great if you suddenly had a sense that there was something more? Something more than the natural course of life and death? When you bury your friends or family, that there was a certainty that there was more than the end of theirs or your current identity? That the sum total of all of your moments, hopes, dreams, and accomplishments did not vanish (to borrow a movie line) "like tears in the rain"?

Forget (for a moment) everything you know about how you perceive church or even many Christians you've met.

Sorry, I cannot both read your post and forget a large chunk of my worst preconceptions. How about you came down from your high horse and treated other people a little less patronizingly?

As for the rest, rest assured that "something, like, so totally ... yeah" does not make a God.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Why is it insane? Curiousity and an obsession with the truth are built into me, it's not like I can change them. The main point is that I can't buy into a lie simply for the sake of expedience.

That's nuts.

I never said anything was insane.
Your obsession for "the truth" is an emotional function.
If you had a different object of your emotional imperative then you would obsess about that. This alternative object could be Jesus, for example.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

I never said anything was insane.
Your obsession for "the truth" is an emotional function.
If you had a different emotional imperative you might be obsessed about Jesus.

Not unless my rational faculties were impaired, I hope.

Nonetheless, I cannot accept a lie for the sake of expediency. It's not how I'm wired. And philosophically, it's repulsive.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Are atheists ignorant? If knowledge is 'true justified belief' (TJB), and atheists lack belief, then they lack knowledge. (I don't necessarily think so, but don't want to do the working out, and it seems plausible.

(I mean "weak" or "negative" atheists, btw, who lack belief in God, rather than believe "there is no God")

I relatively sure that most weak atheists mean belief in the sense of "not 100% certain" when it come to lack of belief. And not a lack of TJB. I would even wager that quite a lot see their stance as a TJB.

 

[Gishin]

You'd have to prove believing in religion is a TJB first.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Not unless my rational faculties were impaired, I hope.

Nonetheless, I cannot accept a lie for the sake of expediency. It's not how I'm wired. And philosophically, it's repulsive.

I suggest you do some research about how your brain, and mine, actually works. It is not at all obvious and it could be quite disconcerting. You will then understand how it is quite possible to believe something in spite of it being illogical and also consider yourself to be thinking perfectly logically. And there is nothing bad about this - nature specially selected it about us.

Sorry about this, but perfectionism is an emotional function. Repulsion is an emotional function. You are no more able to avoid your own subconscious bias on your conscious thinking than anyone else. The human brain that is not consistently logical is never the less pretty perfect for its environment.

It is very much how you are wired.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

I suggest you do some research about how your brain, and mine, actually works. It is not at all obvious and it could be quite disconcerting. You will then understand how it is quite possible to believe something in spite of it being illogical and also consider yourself to be thinking perfectly logically. And there is nothing bad about this - nature specially selected it about us.

Sorry about this, but perfectionism is an emotional function. Repulsion is an emotional function. You are no more able to avoid your own subconscious bias on your conscious thinking than anyone else. The human brain that is not consistently logical is never the less pretty perfect for its environment.

It is very much how you are wired.

Which is what I just said. I'm a post-doc neuroendocrinologist; I know something about how the brain is wired. I'm not claiming that people can't believe things that are not true, but you're advocating choosing untruth over truth on the grounds of happiness or expediency. You sound like Marx.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

Are atheists ignorant? If knowledge is 'true justified belief' (TJB), and atheists lack belief, then they lack knowledge. (I don't necessarily think so, but don't want to do the working out, and it seems plausible.

(I mean "weak" or "negative" atheists, btw, who lack belief in God, rather than believe "there is no God")

Actually, I'd argue that theists don't have TBJ either. They just believe they do. Atheists are generally more honest - we admit things we don't know. Heck, some of us even admit that there are things we might NEVER know.

 

[BrianOnEarth]

Which is what I just said. I'm a post-doc neuroendocrinologist; I know something about how the brain is wired. I'm not claiming that people can't believe things that are not true, but you're advocating choosing untruth over truth on the grounds of happiness or expediency. You sound like Marx.

For a smart person you aren't a very good reader.
No I did not say anything about choosing. I think you are projecting again.

 

[Eudaimonist]

He's playing Buddha games with you. Embrace the lesson.

He's playing games, all right.

I personally detest that style of presentation of Buddhism. It may be helpful for students seeking Buddhist enlightment, at least if they are taking a Zen-style non-cognitive approach, but I am not a Buddhist and seek no such thing. It is not helpful for me, and it was explicitly what I was trying to avoid. I was very clear that I knew the limitations in what I was asking for.

I see no reason why I should have to put up with that. When I seek training with Master Yoda, I'll be sure to let him know.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Tiberius]

It is another one of your beliefs, as an atheist, that the biblical authors were under the same conditions as the Harry Potter author, upon which you base comparisons and deem "effectiveness".

There is not the attempt to bypass this belief when you are given the quote. You are told that it stands. That your effort to replace what was given with what you give as an atheist is inconsequential. That the years you spend exalting yourself as a materialist while simultaneously debasing text so that your doctrine may be revered, has not bore fruit.

Romans 1:20 stands, and you are shown the man.

Excuse me?

It is very possible that the people who wrote the Bible (whoever they were. The only names attached to the texts are attributed by tradition only) were writing down things that they believed to be true, having heard them from other sources. There's no evidence that any of the Bible texts were written at the time the events actually occured.

Now, if you can show me a single shred of evidence to suggest that J K Rowling was under the same impression, I'd like to hear it. Do you think she actually thinks that what she wrote in Harry Potter actually took place?

You see, she knew that what she was writting was fiction, and she presented it that way. There's nothiong in the Harry potter series that tries to pretend it is fact. Can't say the same for the Bible.

 

[Greg1234]

Excuse me?

It is very possible that the people who wrote the Bible (whoever they were. The only names attached to the texts are attributed by tradition only) were writing down things that they believed to be true, having heard them from other sources. There's no evidence that any of the Bible texts were written at the time the events actually occured.

Like I told you thats your belief as an atheist. It is your belief that it should be rejected for whatever reason (in this episode, purely physical derivations) I do not harbor that belief. And it is not. Additionally, time is not a factor. Time is a physical construct. Which is why your "bronze-age" and "ancient" buzz words are easily brushed aside.

Now, if you can show me a single shred of evidence to suggest that J K Rowling was under the same impression, I'd like to hear it. Do you think she actually thinks that what she wrote in Harry Potter actually took place?

I was not the one who grouped the conditions experienced and intention of the Harry Potter author, with the bible authors. You were. I do not hold the belief that they were under the same conditions, nor do I have to present evidence for your tenets.

You see, she knew that what she was writting was fiction, and she presented it that way. There's nothiong in the Harry potter series that tries to pretend it is fact. Can't say the same for the Bible.

It is another one of your beliefs, as an atheist, that the biblical authors were under the same conditions as the Harry Potter author, upon which you base comparisons and deem "effectiveness".

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

<Bully for you, chiclet. Why should I believe you?
<Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

The first is just a phrase: you're entitled to your opinions. The second is latin: "I have a catapult. Give me all your money or I'll fling a large stone at your head."

I do know that like all men, you'll face death, and you don't want to obscure your source of mercy by rendering final judgments.

This is vague. I know I will die. I don't believe there will be an afterlife or judge, so I'm not worried.

Be fully persuaded, but how can you give me your "final answer" without giving it a chance?

Why should I give it a chance?

If you're a thinking person, you won't want to fall under the category of willfully ignorant.

I'm not. I know the Bible better than most Christians I know.

There's no need at all to get riled since I am appealing to your sense of reasonableness by being open to something you're just not aware of.

OK. So give me your evidence.

I asked you to "dream with me" because it IS possible to have supernatural fellowship with the creator, and thankfully, He is love.

Evidence?

Jesus said that there are 2 fathers. His Words always prove to be true. One ministers lies and is the father of all lies.

Why should I accept that as true?

It wouldn't hurt you to consider that there is purpose and divine order for everything would it? Take a listen to some of the NDEs (Near Death Experiences) people have had on youtube. They were clinically dead for a time. There was more...

The NDE folks were never dead. Period. And I've considered the idea of purpose and divine order.

No evidence.