Trouble loving God

[blacksheep78]

I am looking for help. I was raised in a Christian (Calvinist) home. My father was a pastor. I have always believed that the Bible is true and that Jesus is the Way of salvation. But I have never really connected with Christ or with the Father. It has always been very difficult for me to feel love for them. (It does not help that my father was very harsh, and Calvinist theology is no help to me either). I have been reading a lot of Orthodox blogs and such, because there seems to be a greater emphasis on God as love. But I am still struggling very much. I live in constant fear that God is not with me and does not love me, and that I will not "make it". I do not know what to do. I plead with God every day to give me a new heart, to fill me with the Holy Spirit (if I do not have it - it is hard to say), and to help me to love Him. It seems that He does not answer. When I read the Bible, pretty much all I see is wrath, judgment, and condemnation. I know that many Orthodox have a different conception of God's wrath than Protestants and Catholics do, and I like that, but it still seems to me that God acts very unkindly and unmercifully - especially in the OT, but also in that He will allow people to suffer torment in hell, and also things in the NT like what happened to Ananias and Sapphira and Peter's harsh words to Simon the Sorcerer. Even Christ Himself does not really touch my heart - perhaps I am too "used" to the truth, or just have so many negative associations. I always feel guilty and worry that it may be too late for me, because I knew the truth from childhood yet I did not respect my father (I have since mended my relationship with him), often found fault with God (still struggling with this), and many times in my life gave into temptation and pushed God out of my mind. I worry that God does not want me. I worry that I have too much pride. I just want to be in a right relationship with my Creator, I want to adore Christ and walk with Him - but I do not know how to change my thoughts and affections to this end. I am very willing to submit and obey, but that is not enough. I think if there were no hell I might just throw in the towel. But I cannot. Neither can I be saved if it is only to escape hell. Whoever does not love the Lord will be anathema. Can anyone help?

 

[blacksheep78]

Also, I should mention that I have been told to meditate on the attributes of God....but power, might, and absolute perfection are not things that appeal to me. And like I mentioned, the love part seems to me to be lacking in compassion. I think if I had been an Israelite I would have been wiped out a long time ago. That in itself makes it hard to love God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hello, and welcome to CF and to TAW!

I understand how you feel and the filter you are probably viewing God through. It will take some time, but you can be assured that there ARE answers for your questions, and that God indeed is loving and merciful.

But it's sort of a paraidigm shift, isn't it? I was raised with the same kind of thinking, and I remember when it finally truly hit me through Orthodoxy that GOD REALLY DOES LOVE US ... well, there were many factors that drew me, but that was the biggest one.

I'm not sure if what worked for me would work for you. I mostly credit that I listened to Fr. Evan Armitas podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio - Orthodoxy Live. Because He often explains WHY the Church does or teaches such a thing, it finally all came together for me suddenly one day and I saw God differently - especially the Father.

Orthodoxy Live | Ancient Faith Ministries

There is so much that could be addressed, but I only have a moment right now. You probably do have too much pride, but that just means you're like all the rest of us. Mankind essentially universally struggles with that, and other vices. God understands. And it's not that God got us into this mess - not at all. He did allow us free will, but He always had a plan of redemption. And hell is not the punishing wrath of God ... even that is His love, but it will be torment for those who hate Him and will be unable to flee completely from His Presence.

The points in the OT need to be addressed for you, but please understand that Jesus is exactly like the Father. You don't have one full of wrath, barely restrained from destroying us, while the other is trying to buy mercy for us. No - Jesus said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". They are both agape-love. Instead of trying to understand God through the OT, know that the entire Scriptures must be understood through the Gospels, which contain the words and actions of God revealed to us.

I must go now, but please be reassured. I'm sure others will offer help as well. It won't likely change overnight, but it is VERY worth pursuing this understanding, bit by bit, however God will lead you to it.

Again, welcome to CF and God be with you!

 

[Lukaris]

Things to consider:

The Lord Jesus Christ summed up most of the Old Covenant in His commandments:

Matthew 22:36-40

Matthew 7:12 ( also read Matthew 7:1-12 )

Luke 24:44-49

St. Paul sums up how we are to live as Christians in Romans 13:8-10. Also read about how the Lord recognizes those who do good from those who do evil: John 3:16-21 , John 5:22-30 , Romans 2 . There is much hope we should have for all if we see this in keeping the commandments. This is not easy but it is hopeful.

 

[ArmyMatt]

remember that our starting point is always that God is the good God Who loves mankind. even though He might seem harsh in the OT, it was for the salvation of those who He smote. remember in St Peter's epistle he says Christ even preached to those who died in the Flood, and they were the worst of the worst.

 

[blacksheep78]

even though He might seem harsh in the OT, it was for the salvation of those who He smote.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that God killed Israelites to prevent them from sinning and condemning themselves more?

 

[blacksheep78]

Hello, and welcome to CF and to TAW!

I understand how you feel and the filter you are probably viewing God through. It will take some time, but you can be assured that there ARE answers for your questions, and that God indeed is loving and merciful.

But it's sort of a paraidigm shift, isn't it? I was raised with the same kind of thinking, and I remember when it finally truly hit me through Orthodoxy that GOD REALLY DOES LOVE US ... well, there were many factors that drew me, but that was the biggest one.

I'm not sure if what worked for me would work for you. I mostly credit that I listened to Fr. Evan Armitas podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio - Orthodoxy Live. Because He often explains WHY the Church does or teaches such a thing, it finally all came together for me suddenly one day and I saw God differently - especially the Father.

Orthodoxy Live | Ancient Faith Ministries

There is so much that could be addressed, but I only have a moment right now. You probably do have too much pride, but that just means you're like all the rest of us. Mankind essentially universally struggles with that, and other vices. God understands. And it's not that God got us into this mess - not at all. He did allow us free will, but He always had a plan of redemption. And hell is not the punishing wrath of God ... even that is His love, but it will be torment for those who hate Him and will be unable to flee completely from His Presence.

The points in the OT need to be addressed for you, but please understand that Jesus is exactly like the Father. You don't have one full of wrath, barely restrained from destroying us, while the other is trying to buy mercy for us. No - Jesus said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". They are both agape-love. Instead of trying to understand God through the OT, know that the entire Scriptures must be understood through the Gospels, which contain the words and actions of God revealed to us.

I must go now, but please be reassured. I'm sure others will offer help as well. It won't likely change overnight, but it is VERY worth pursuing this understanding, bit by bit, however God will lead you to it.

Again, welcome to CF and God be with you!

Thank you very much for your encouragement. Were there any Orthodoxy Live podcasts in particular that really helped draw you to God?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that God killed Israelites to prevent them from sinning and condemning themselves more?

yes, and also maybe they were so sinful that is what God used to make them repent.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you very much for your encouragement. Were there any Orthodoxy Live podcasts in particular that really helped draw you to God?

Not any one in particular, which is why there might be something more direct to help you. I listened and listened again to all the ones that were available at that time (not many since this was a few years ago) and it was kind of just "soaking" in the mindset of the Church and WHY we do what we do that made it real to me.

The Church is always concerned with restoration, and doing what is best for the salvation of any person. She isn't about legalism and punishment. I never actually thought it through before, but really it is through the Church that I began to see God, and now that I'm thinking about it - Orthodoxy (being the Eastern Church) has been (mostly) insulated from the thoughts of Catholicism that were carried into the Protestant denominations that split from Catholicism. And they are all really fundamentally different from us in how they look at sin, punishment, salvation, man, God ... everything. That difference in how they view everything (and it's a spectrum but they are all legalistic to one degree or another compared to Orthodoxy) ... but that view shapes how they understand and relate to God. And that's the view I was raised with too. Take your pick - a God who chooses to elect some and not others (and hope you are "elect"!) or a God that lets you fall out of salvation for every infraction until it is properly repented of. It can be terrifying either way.

Now just because Orthodoxy is different would not be a comfort, except ... if you understand from Church history how things happened, the ways in which we interpret Svripture and understand God are handed down from the Apostles. We believe the faith was "once for all delivered to the Saints" and we do not use scholasticism, reason, or any other method to reinterpret or develop doctrine. We simply keep - at all costs - what the Apostles taught. That has always been the central focus of Orthodox teaching. And I'm going to bet that the Apostles understood what they wrote better than someone else 15 or 20 centuries later with a stack of language reference guides, commentaries, and history books, digging through the Scriptures and trying to figure out what they meant. Why not just ask the ones who received it from the Apostles? (There are mountains of writing which amount to commentaries written by the ones directly disciples by the Apostles - taught during the decades the Church existed before any NT Scripture had been written.)

(ETA: I realize many denominations out there say "we do/teach what the Apostles did/taught" but that's not really what I'm saying. Like I said - if you know Church history - the Eastern Church was basically off in its own just keeping the faith and handing it down - while Catholicism was in the west developing doctrine, and she was the mother of all Protestants, who inherited her good and bad points and tried to decide which was which in developing their own doctrines - we just never had either development or reformation.)

Sorry, long rambling reply. I don't think I ever really realized just how I came to know the love of God until I was thinking through this reply.

So ... I wish I could tell you "it's this episode" but it wasn't any particular one. It was an overall understanding of how the Church cares for each person and does whatever is best for their salvation - because that's what God does too. Everything that comes to us, even as the result of sin and so not really God's will, He is very pleased if we allow Him to turn it all for our good, if we cooperate with Him in our salvation, and allow Him to form Christ in us - He will use all those things, both good and bad, for our ultimate benefit. And that is because of His very great love for us, in that He desires the very best for us, which includes above all our ultimate salvation and eternal life in Him.

I will keep my eye out for anything that might be more direct though. I've listened to many different podcasts by now, so maybe I can remember one that will be directly helpful. Or maybe someone else will know of one. I'll keep thinking.

Prayers for you, btw. And God be with you!

 

[YCGP]

Does anyone know a good online resource for reading the Apostles?

 

[Lukaris]

Reading the Apostles as in the New Testament?

If so, probably the New King James, Revised Standard, King James (a bit dated) might be the best translations in English. These can be read online here:

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in 65 languages and 205 versions.

For the immediate (surviving) post apostolic writings see:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

Just a note, this website contains heretical as well as Orthodox writings. They are just scholars & have no agenda. Orthodox early writings include: the Didache, Epistles of St. Ignatius, St. Clement of Rome, St. Polycarp, the Epistle of Barnabas (not the apostle & odd in parts but Orthodox).

 

[YCGP]

My mistake. I meant the Church Fathers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the NPNF is all online

 

[Lukaris]

The post apostolic writings I mentioned are church fathers. There are many writings of course and guard against overload. One really crucial book might be: On the Incarnation by St. Athanasius (4th c.). The Catholic website New Advent has it online (= about 75 printed pp.): CHURCH FATHERS: On the Incarnation of the Word (Athanasius)

 

[ArmyMatt]

tertullian.org also has a lot that usually is not translated

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I am looking for help. I was raised in a Christian (Calvinist) home. My father was a pastor. I have always believed that the Bible is true and that Jesus is the Way of salvation. But I have never really connected with Christ or with the Father. It has always been very difficult for me to feel love for them. (It does not help that my father was very harsh, and Calvinist theology is no help to me either). I have been reading a lot of Orthodox blogs and such, because there seems to be a greater emphasis on God as love. But I am still struggling very much. I live in constant fear that God is not with me and does not love me, and that I will not "make it". I do not know what to do. I plead with God every day to give me a new heart, to fill me with the Holy Spirit (if I do not have it - it is hard to say), and to help me to love Him. It seems that He does not answer. When I read the Bible, pretty much all I see is wrath, judgment, and condemnation. I know that many Orthodox have a different conception of God's wrath than Protestants and Catholics do, and I like that, but it still seems to me that God acts very unkindly and unmercifully - especially in the OT, but also in that He will allow people to suffer torment in hell, and also things in the NT like what happened to Ananias and Sapphira and Peter's harsh words to Simon the Sorcerer. Even Christ Himself does not really touch my heart - perhaps I am too "used" to the truth, or just have so many negative associations. I always feel guilty and worry that it may be too late for me, because I knew the truth from childhood yet I did not respect my father (I have since mended my relationship with him), often found fault with God (still struggling with this), and many times in my life gave into temptation and pushed God out of my mind. I worry that God does not want me. I worry that I have too much pride. I just want to be in a right relationship with my Creator, I want to adore Christ and walk with Him - but I do not know how to change my thoughts and affections to this end. I am very willing to submit and obey, but that is not enough. I think if there were no hell I might just throw in the towel. But I cannot. Neither can I be saved if it is only to escape hell. Whoever does not love the Lord will be anathema. Can anyone help?

Icons.

Calvinism of all types always gets back to interpreting the Second Commandment in a restrictive way. At its most consistent, Calvinism will teach you that even picturing Christ in your mind is wrong. But what this builds into the Calvinist mentality is a detachment from Christ as a person. Christ becomes an idea, a pure proposition, a character in a book. And so his love becomes also an idea--distant, abstract, untouchable. All that is left to feel when he is distant is a kind of disinterested judgment.

He assumed flesh. He took on a fully human soul. This is expressed in the Eucharist, but also in the Icons. An Icon of Christ reminds you that he is a person. That he has compassion for you.

But another thing is apophatic theology. There is a very up-and-coming theory in behavior analysis--one that I agree with--which says that the dark side of human language is that it gives our mind an echo chamber for negative emotions. We feel down, so we say, "I am depressed." And then we become more depressed over the observation that we are depressed. Break the rule of language over your life, and you will become more attuned to the beauty all around you, and your mood will improve. I find that this jells nicely with the Orthodox emphasis on Creation as a sacrament.

 

[YCGP]

Icons.

Calvinism of all types always gets back to interpreting the Second Commandment in a restrictive way. At its most consistent, Calvinism will teach you that even picturing Christ in your mind is wrong. But what this builds into the Calvinist mentality is a detachment from Christ as a person. Christ becomes an idea, a pure proposition, a character in a book. And so his love becomes also an idea--distant, abstract, untouchable. All that is left to feel when he is distant is a kind of disinterested judgment.

He assumed flesh. He took on a fully human soul. This is expressed in the Eucharist, but also in the Icons. An Icon of Christ reminds you that he is a person. That he has compassion for you.

But another thing is apophatic theology. There is a very up-and-coming theory in behavior analysis--one that I agree with--which says that the dark side of human language is that it gives our mind an echo chamber for negative emotions. We feel down, so we say, "I am depressed." And then we become more depressed over the observation that we are depressed. Break the rule of language over your life, and you will become more attuned to the beauty all around you, and your mood will improve. I find that this jells nicely with the Orthodox emphasis on Creation as a sacrament.

What you said resonates with me. Also, when we change our language we change our perspective.

I wrote a post here:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-i-learned-from-tony-robbins.8045826/#post-72242929

You may be interested. Apply it to your relationship with God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Icons.

Calvinism of all types always gets back to interpreting the Second Commandment in a restrictive way. At its most consistent, Calvinism will teach you that even picturing Christ in your mind is wrong. But what this builds into the Calvinist mentality is a detachment from Christ as a person. Christ becomes an idea, a pure proposition, a character in a book. And so his love becomes also an idea--distant, abstract, untouchable. All that is left to feel when he is distant is a kind of disinterested judgment.

He assumed flesh. He took on a fully human soul. This is expressed in the Eucharist, but also in the Icons. An Icon of Christ reminds you that he is a person. That he has compassion for you.

But another thing is apophatic theology. There is a very up-and-coming theory in behavior analysis--one that I agree with--which says that the dark side of human language is that it gives our mind an echo chamber for negative emotions. We feel down, so we say, "I am depressed." And then we become more depressed over the observation that we are depressed. Break the rule of language over your life, and you will become more attuned to the beauty all around you, and your mood will improve. I find that this jells nicely with the Orthodox emphasis on Creation as a sacrament.

yep, and the restriction somehow fails to take into account that God commanded images in the OT Tabernacle and Temples.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

yep, and the restriction somehow fails to take into account that God commanded images in the OT Tabernacle and Temples.

Not entirely, Father. Calvin takes notice of that argument in his Harmony of the Law. Regarding the cherubs woven into the tabernacle curtains, he scoffs, "in order that the similitude should hold good, they [the Papists] must needs hide their images under a triple covering, lest the people should be able to see them; and then, how would they be 'the books of the unlearned' (idiotarum), as they call them?" Trouble is, in his rush to score a hit in the debate, Calvin doesn't actually address the problem that Ex. 26 poses for him. The commandment includes not to make any graven image, and even if only priests were able to see the embroidery, they were still using images in the worship of God. How is this possible?

At this point, Calvin would likely object that the cherubim were an exception because they were commanded. At which point, an Orthodox would counter that John's Revelation shows us the implied revised picture of the heavenly throne--one with Saints and incense. Calvin would probably hit back that Revelation is "only" an apocalyptic vision that uses OT imagery to portray in a kind of allegory. But how are we to know this is the interpretive key to the book? It all breaks down to Tradition versus Sola scriptura, learning a language from the descendents of its speakers versus reconstructing it from texts. And thing is, you never learn to speak a language fluently by following the second method.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not entirely, Father. Calvin takes notice of that argument in his Harmony of the Law. Regarding the cherubs woven into the tabernacle curtains, he scoffs, "in order that the similitude should hold good, they [the Papists] must needs hide their images under a triple covering, lest the people should be able to see them; and then, how would they be 'the books of the unlearned' (idiotarum), as they call them?" Trouble is, in his rush to score a hit in the debate, Calvin doesn't actually address the problem that Ex. 26 poses for him. The commandment includes not to make any graven image, and even if only priests were able to see the embroidery, they were still using images in the worship of God. How is this possible?

At this point, Calvin would likely object that the cherubim were an exception because they were commanded. At which point, an Orthodox would counter that John's Revelation shows us the implied revised picture of the heavenly throne--one with Saints and incense. Calvin would probably hit back that Revelation is "only" an apocalyptic vision that uses OT imagery to portray in a kind of allegory. But how are we to know this is the interpretive key to the book? It all breaks down to Tradition versus Sola scriptura, learning a language from the descendents of its speakers versus reconstructing it from texts. And thing is, you never learn to speak a language fluently by following the second method.

that's why I also mentioned the Temples, because there were images visible to everyone and not just the Levites, to include the Lord Himself when He went to the Temple (and, as our archaeology shows, the local synagogues too). I do agree with your point though.