Trolley Problem and God

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
do you believe I deserve death for lying?

How can I know. Are you going to tell us here all the lies you have been telling??

Are you going to share with us the real reason and motives behind each and every lie?

If hate was included,

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

Now, Cizby, I think of this > if someone has no eternal life in himself or herself, he or she is already dead . . . love-dead. So, the person already has death, deserving or not.

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

So, from this I see how someone can be love-dead, by living for pleasure, instead of treasuring how we can be intimate with God and loving each and every person. So, there is more to this, than if you are deserving of some punishment; by living without Jesus, a person is missing out on the kind of life the person can have.

And I would say it is worse to be love-dead, than just to die and leave this life.

Lying can be betraying people . . . not loving them. Betraying can indeed be an act of hatred. So, if you lie because you are betraying trust, this could be a form or spiritual murder. It can be a way of not finding out how to have a real love relationship.

But what if someone is lying in order to cover up for wrong things, in order to not hurt someone by their knowing it? Well, we should not hurt people, but also we should not be doing very wrong things we feel need to be covered up by lying.

So - - it depends, to some extent, on the company the lying keeps . . . maybe. I do think we have the Bible case where God approved of lying, and rewarded those midwives who lied to Pharaoh.

So, this might be a good question > has God rewarded you for lying because of how it was so loving people?

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
You say you teach the Bible; so if you really know God's word, you already know God's word says "liars" will go to the lake of fire and brimstone > Revelation 21:8. So, are you testing me to see if I also know what the Bible says? But this does not say that the lying all by itself will be the reason.

No test. I ask straightforward questions why do you insist and not answering them and assuming I am asking something else? I am asking if You think that I deserve to go to hell because I have lied before? I am not asking what the bible says about it.

Also, there is His purpose for vessels of dishonor > Romans 9:21.

I now think of this > a person who trusts in and depends on lying is not trusting in Jesus. So, the person is rejecting God's own Son. And the person's horrible example of this can help others to also miss out. So, the liar is helping others to go to hell, also. When people do evil, they export this to others. So, this is part of what is wrong.

I never said I "trust in or depend on lying". I have lied and you have also. Does telling a lie, even as a way of life deserve hell? Does dishonoring God deserve hell in your opinion?

Plus, as I would suppose you know, there is no sin which is in isolation. Ones who do one thing have others they do, also. And what in the character makes this possible is what really matters. A person is being anti-Christ by how one's character is selfish. Plus, like I have offered, there is the evil spirit who is causing this > Ephesians 2:2 > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

Demonstrate this spirit please.

This evil spirit is going to hell; so while a person is investing in Satanic activities of this evil spirit, the person is growing "worse and worse" (in 2 Timothy 3:13) along with others, and then the person can go where the Satanic stuff of this is going > to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, a person's lies, by themselves, are not all there is to it.

So it is wise, then, not to allow this stuff in us; this is why, among other things we are told to put evil stuff away from us and get into how to love, instead >

Have you lied as a Christian? What is the standard? Tell one lie and go to hell or tell 10, what is it?

And, by the way, "evil speaking" includes calling God a murderer. Jesus is clear how Satan, not God, "is a murderer" > in John 8:44. Plus, Satan is the one who is the father of lies, as the same scripture says . . . including how he has people lying by saying God is a murderer < that is not only lying but blasphemy and bearing false witness against God Himself. So, if people think our Father of Jesus is a murderer, they have God and Satan mixed up. So, if you know and teach God's word, you make sure you tell people this, and do not misrepresent God's word.

The Bible records that Satan killed about 10 people. The Bible records that God killed millions. Of course since God is in charge he is going to call Satan the murder. Have you ever pondered that maybe Satan opposes God because he is the good one?

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
God is the source of His standards. But we can anthropomorphize God to fit with our standards and how we are in our character. So, yes our character can effect how we see God.

But whatever are really God's standards have come from God Himself.

But, then, there is the issue of if and how our character can effect how well we understand Him and His standards.

It is not my fault if I misunderstand God if he refuses to help me understand. A logical and good god would make sure all people understand him and his plan for salvation. Then we could make an informed decision to follow him or not. This would be easy for God.

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
How can I know. Are you going to tell us here all the lies you have been telling??

Are you going to share with us the real reason and motives behind each and every lie?

I admit I have lied. Do you think I deserve hell for that?

If hate was included,

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)

Do you think I deserve hell for hating someone else?

Now, Cizby, I think of this > if someone has no eternal life in himself or herself, he or she is already dead . . . love-dead. So, the person already has death, deserving or not.

Nope, I love many people and I just checked I have a pulse.

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives."

(1 Timothy 5:6)

So, from this I see how someone can be love-dead, by living for pleasure, instead of treasuring how we can be intimate with God and loving each and every person. So, there is more to this, than if you are deserving of some punishment; by living without Jesus, a person is missing out on the kind of life the person can have.

I don't live solely for pleasure. You assumptions are legion. I have purposes and goals in my life and not all revolve around pleasure.

And I would say it is worse to be love-dead, than just to die and leave this life.

Lying can be betraying people . . . not loving them. Betraying can indeed be an act of hatred. So, if you lie because you are betraying trust, this could be a form or spiritual murder. It can be a way of not finding out how to have a real love relationship.

But what if someone is lying in order to cover up for wrong things, in order to not hurt someone by their knowing it? Well, we should not hurt people, but also we should not be doing very wrong things we feel need to be covered up by lying.

So - - it depends, to some extent, on the company the lying keeps . . . maybe. I do think we have the Bible case where God approved of lying, and rewarded those midwives who lied to Pharaoh.

So, this might be a good question > has God rewarded you for lying because of how it was so loving people?

I have no idea.

Rahab and David lied in the Bible without any admonition from God as well. Situational ethics is a better foundation for moral decisions. I would say for most situations lying is wrong but not all situations. Jesus does not seem to have this view.

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I am asking if You think that I deserve to go to hell because I have lied before? I am not asking what the bible says about it.

no

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I never said I "trust in or depend on lying". I have lied and you have also. Does telling a lie, even as a way of life deserve hell? Does dishonoring God deserve hell in your opinion?

no

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Have you lied as a Christian? What is the standard? Tell one lie and go to hell or tell 10, what is it?

Repent and don't do it. Love people, instead, and share with God, instead.

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Plus, like I have offered, there is the evil spirit who is causing this > Ephesians 2:2 > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

Clizby WampusCat said:
Demonstrate this spirit please.

Demonstrate can mean to put on a show of how Satan's spirit can work. I hope not to do this.

Demonstrate can mean to explain how Satan's spirit does things, and by what means > it says this evil spirit "works" in disobedient people. So, I would say anything which is disobedient to God's word is a demonstration of Satan's evil spirit working in people. This would include actions and most sorts of lying, I would say. Plus, a major degradation is how Satanic stuff keeps people from obeying Jesus in His "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) There is a major problem of how ones claim to be Christian people but they abuse themselves emotionally, instead of living and loving in Jesus Christ's peace > Colossians 3:15 > so, they disobey peace. So, this sort of activity of Satan's disobedient spirit is not only what is outward behavior.

As for proving this spirit exists > and therefore demonstrating it > I think we can see for ourselves that there is an evil being messing with people. We have such ability and even know how certain things hurt us; yet, we keep on in them, because we are being worked > by the one who "works" in people to disobey. This includes how certain emotions and drives work very hard against what is good for us.

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
The Bible records that Satan killed about 10 people. The Bible records that God killed millions. Of course since God is in charge he is going to call Satan the murder. Have you ever pondered that maybe Satan opposes God because he is the good one?

no

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I admit I have lied. Do you think I deserve hell for that?

no

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Do you think I deserve hell for hating someone else?

no

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Now, Cizby, I think of this > if someone has no eternal life in himself or herself, he or she is already dead . . . love-dead. So, the person already has death, deserving or not.

And to this you said:
Nope, I love many people and I just checked I have a pulse.

I'm not talking about if your body is alive.

I said a person can be love-dead, not only physically dead. It says a person who hates his brother does not have "eternal life". It does not say the person does not have life in this world. And an example I offered for this is >

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

So, having a pulse is not what I mean. She has a pulse, but is "dead". Because of how she is alive to pleasure, she is not alive to God and enjoying Him while discovering how He has us loving any and all people. She could enjoy right pleasures (1 Timothy 6:17), while sharing with God, though. But if they are her master, Jesus says we can't serve two masters, right?

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
no

Great. Then why do you follow a God that does think I deserve hell for lying?

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
I don't live solely for pleasure. You assumptions are legion. I have purposes and goals in my life and not all revolve around pleasure.

Here is what I said:
So, from this I see how someone can be love-dead, by living for pleasure, instead of treasuring how we can be intimate with God and loving each and every person. So, there is more to this, than if you are deserving of some punishment; by living without Jesus, a person is missing out on the kind of life the person can have.

To me, this looks like I am simply offering how it can be that a person can be love-dead. I was not saying this applied to you or not. But we have been talking about if a person can be deserving of death, and my point is how a person can already be dead . . . love-dead, even while the person is still on this earth.

And being love-dead, I have offered, is worse than just dying and leaving this life. And no I don't feel people sinning deserve to be love-dead, by the way. But it is included in living selfishly.

And yes there are other ways to be love-dead, than by living for pleasure. Lying can be love-dead . . . among other items. Being in denial can help to maintain this. There are a lot of activities which can help to maintain a person in being love-dead, in sin > including "complaining and disputing" > Philippians 2:13-16.

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Repent and don't do it. Love people, instead, and share with God, instead.

I can love people and value not lying without a god.

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I'm not talking about if your body is alive.

I said a person can be love-dead, not only physically dead. It says a person who hates his brother does not have "eternal life". It does not say the person does not have life in this world. And an example I offered for this is >

"But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6)

So, having a pulse is not what I mean. She has a pulse, but is "dead". Because of how she is alive to pleasure, she is not alive to God and enjoying Him while discovering how He has us loving any and all people. She could enjoy right pleasures (1 Timothy 6:17), while sharing with God, though. But if they are her master, Jesus says we can't serve two masters, right?

And I am saying I don't live solely for pleasure. I have purposes and goals that are not about pure pleasure. I love many people without believing in a God. I am not love dead.

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
To me, this looks like I am simply offering how it can be that a person can be love-dead. I was not saying this applied to you or not. But we have been talking about if a person can be deserving of death, and my point is how a person can already be dead . . . love-dead, even while the person is still on this earth.

And being love-dead, I have offered, is worse than just dying and leaving this life. And no I don't feel people sinning deserve to be love-dead, by the way. But it is included in living selfishly.

And yes there are other ways to be love-dead, than by living for pleasure. Lying can be love-dead . . . among other items. Being in denial can help to maintain this. There are a lot of activities which can help to maintain a person in being love-dead, in sin > including "complaining and disputing" > Philippians 2:13-16.

Can you define love dead?

com7fy8 · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Rahab and David lied in the Bible without any admonition from God as well. Situational ethics is a better foundation for moral decisions. I would say for most situations lying is wrong but not all situations. Jesus does not seem to have this view.

Actually, it seems James is praising Rahab > James 2:25. And this is in Jesus Christ's New Covenant scripture; so this could mean Jesus approves of this.

Clizby WampusCat · Aug 19, 2020

com7fy8 said:
Actually, it seems James is praising Rahab > James 2:25. And this is in Jesus Christ's New Covenant scripture; so this could mean Jesus approves of this.

I agree.

BNR32FAN · Aug 19, 2020

Clizby WampusCat said:
Now I bet many are already typing a response to say we get to choose salvation because we have free will. This is not a response to the question. If God sees the end of his creation prior to creating it then chooses to create the universe in a way that causes most people to not be saved does not allow for anyone to have free will in choosing to be saved. If God wanted a world where most people are saved, or even all, he could have created that universe. He admittedly did not.

You like the rest of us don’t know all the variables as to why God requires us to believe on faith instead of conclusive proof. So you can’t say for certain that God could’ve created a world where most or all could be saved that is merely an assumption based on little to no knowledge of the full picture. Without understanding why God has decided man must be saved by faith your explanation is incomplete. Perhaps this outcome was the plan because it will result in the highest number of those who will choose to believe of their own free will. That number simply is not the majority of mankind and not God’s fault but man’s. God did however go out of His way to make a way for all to be saved. So each man’s fate lies in his own hands.

Trolley Problem and God

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