Trinity

[spockrates]

...

 

[spockrates]

Straw man fallacy. I don't know why you keep insisting on forcing that meaning into what I've said.

I have NEVER said, "God is a (singular) person". Just as I said to you in the other thread, and as I'm repeating now, God is a "who". Being a "who" does NOT automatically make God "one person". "Who" can be used for a group, there is NOTHING in its definition that forces "who" to be singular. So, please, stop your erroneous attempt at forcing that meaning.

My apologies. I've been participating in four different discussion threads regarding the trinity for many days, now. It's getting difficult to remember what was said to whom. Is this closer to your definition of the Trinity?

There is only one God who is three persons.​

 

[spockrates]

This is the first time I have heard anyone refer to God as being in a thing (or in three things) rather than being itself, a thing. ... or a who in three whos rather than itself, a who.

Don't use analogies, I learned in the first Trinity lesson. However, one might think of the Trinity as the number one, and the three persons as the cube roots of one. The cube roots all equal one, but they differ in time or phase so they differ from each other.

I got the idea form this Evangelical site:

It is important to note that when Trinitarians speak of one God they are referring to the nature or essence of God. Moreover, when they speak of persons they are referring to personal self-distinctions within the Godhead. Put another way, we believe in one What and three Who’s.​

https://www.google.com/amp/www.equip.org/bible_answers/is-the-trinity-biblical/amp/

​

 

[Pagan]

I got the idea form this Evangelical site:

It is important to note that when Trinitarians speak of one God they are referring to the nature or essence of God. Moreover, when they speak of persons they are referring to personal self-distinctions within the Godhead. Put another way, we believe in one What and three Who’s.​

https://www.google.com/amp/www.equip.org/bible_answers/is-the-trinity-biblical/amp/

​

I have heard of God having an essence, which is a thing that exists in a thing rather than being a thing itself. If, as the Bible says rather ad nauseam, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are God, then they are three persons with the same essence, like a throne, a stool, and a porch swing, which are all essentially chairs.

So does God have a body in which to have an essence, or is he like Louie Prima as he floats in the East River singing I ain't got no body.

 

[Pagan]

Many christian groups qnd individuals do not believe in the trinity
As listed
church of Christ...conservative
Non denominational/ charismatic...some not all
Messianic Jewish christian

Outside of western protestant and catholic
Ethiopian christian
Underground chinese christian...

And others simply refuse to address or use the word TRINITY
Because it is not in the Bible
Or because it wasnt a doctrine until around the 3rd century AD

Best to keep it simple and not try to read beyond what the Bible tells us....

There is only one God...who is greater than the Son
The shema
Deuteronomy 6:4
There is only one begotten Son of God
Mathew 17:5
They share the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit also with all believers in the Son
John 3:5-8

Thanks for the information.

 

[spockrates]

I have heard of God having an essence, which is a thing that exists in a thing rather than being a thing itself. If, as the Bible says rather ad nauseam, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are God, then they are three persons with the same essence, like a throne, a stool, and a porch swing, which are all essentially chairs.

So does God have a body in which to have an essence, or is he like Louie Prima as he floats in the East River singing I ain't got no body.

So trinitarians say, "Only the Son of God has a body, for he is both God and man," and Mormons say, "God the Father and the Son of God have a physical body, but the Holy Ghost doesn't," and Oneness Pentecostals and other Modalists say, "God sometimes has a physical body and sometimes doesn't, depending on what mode he's in."

As for me, I simply don't know, for I see each of their interpretations of the Bible as equally plausible. Hence, I continue to wonder as I wander.

 

[Pagan]

So trinitarians say, "Only the Son of God has a body, for he is both God and man," and Mormons say, "God the Father and the Son of God have a physical body, but the Holy Ghost doesn't," and Oneness Pentecostals and other Modalists say, "God sometimes has a physical body and sometimes doesn't, depending on what mode he's in."

As for me, I simply don't know, for I see each of their interpretations of the Bible as equally plausible. Hence, I continue to wonder as I wander.

Imaginary things like geometric figures and words have bodies of points or phonemes, even though they have no physical bodies. Spiritual things might have spiritual bodies, but maybe that would be necessary.

 

[Traveling teacher]

The difference in God the Father
And Jesus the son of God
1. GOd the father name is Yahweh
he is the only 1 true God
Deuteronomy 6:4
Name given to Moses
Exodus 3:15
YAhweh is not a man
YAhweh cannot lie or sin
Numbers 23:19
Yahweh. Cannot be tempted
James 1:13
Yahweh knows all things
1 john 3:18
God the Father..Yahweh is greater in power than His son
1 Corinthians 15:27

2. IN contrast Jesus was the only begotten son of God
John 3:16
And became the son of Man
Matthew 16:15
JEsus was tempted in every way....but did not sin
HEbrews 4:15
JEsus does not know all things but only what is given to him by His Father
Matthew 24:36
SOn of man can do nothing of Himself but what the Father does......
JOhn 5:19
Sits at His Fathers right hand
Matthew 26:64

 

[-V-]

Is this closer to your definition of the Trinity?
There is only one God who is three persons.

I suppose it could be said that way.

 

[-V-]

The difference in God the Father
And Jesus the son of God
1. GOd the father name is Yahweh
he is the only 1 true God
Deuteronomy 6:4
Name given to Moses
Exodus 3:15
YAhweh is not a man
YAhweh cannot lie or sin
Numbers 23:19
Yahweh. Cannot be tempted
James 1:13
Yahweh knows all things
1 john 3:18

First off, "Yahweh" appears nowhere in the New Testament. "Yahweh" is a Hebrew word, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek. So your New Testament references have no relation to the specific word "Yahweh".

Second, where does it say that "Yahweh" is strictly the name of the Father, rather than the name of the entire Godhead? When Moses asked, "who should I say is sending me?", Yahweh replied, "tell them 'I Am' sent you." Then note that Jesus claimed to be "I Am" at John 8:58.

2. IN contrast Jesus was the only begotten son of God
John 3:16
And became the son of Man
Matthew 16:15

Merely distinguishes between Jesus and the Father, no conflict with the Trinity.

JEsus was tempted in every way....but did not sin
HEbrews 4:15

But Jesus was also true man along with being true God. That is how Jesus could be tempted, He had a human nature. The Father can't be tempted as He has no human nature. Again, all this really shows is a distinction between the Son and the Father, no conflict with the Trinity.

JEsus does not know all things but only what is given to him by His Father
Matthew 24:36
SOn of man can do nothing of Himself but what the Father does......
JOhn 5:19

This is explained by my previous statement about Jesus' state of humiliation.

Sits at His Fathers right hand
Matthew 26:64

Again, simply distinguishes between the Father and the Son, no conflict with the Trinity.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Yahshua or Joshua
Would have been Jesus Hebrew name
Matthew and Luke
Means Yahweh saves
Took on the name of His father
As the savior of the world

Jesus would have spoken Hebrew or Aramaic
Jesus would use the name of Yahweh as pointing to the Father
When He quoted the greatest commandment

We are in agreement on most all points
I don't use the word trinity because of the many different views and confusion.....

I believe my main disagreement is that when Jesus says He and His Fatherr are 1
It means they are in agreement in Spirit
This does not mean they are equal in authority or in every way
Like a marriage....
Thus the Father is greater than the son in authority
That's why God would call him His only begotten son
And not His brother

They are not twins like twinity......

Jesus never said He had equal authoriry
And always exalted and pointed Yahweh as the only 1 true God

 

[spockrates]

Imaginary things like geometric figures and words have bodies of points or phonemes, even though they have no physical bodies. Spiritual things might have spiritual bodies, but maybe that would be necessary.

Acknowledged. I think perhaps the words spiritual body don't apply, for Paul uses the words to describe a physical but immortal body, here:

1 Corinthians 15:40-44 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.​

Since elsewhere he says we are raised from the dead with bodies like that Christ had when he was resurrected, the inference is a spiritual body is a physical one.

***

But I now understand what you meant when you asked,

So does God have a body in which to have an essence, or is he like Louie Prima as he floats in the East River singing I ain't got no body.
​

I think the trinitarian answer might be this: If God is the shared essence (or nature) in the three divine persons, then this essence (or nature) doesn't have a body (physical or non-physical) if its own. It is a thing inside (or perhaps attribute or attributes of) the three persons.

Fascinating fact: Catholics believe the Eucharist they eat is the body, soul and divinity of Christ. In other words, all that the Son of God is, is the essence of every blessed wafer of bread they eat at their mass. So I suppose a Catholic would say the body of Christ can be anywhere at the same moment.

 

[spockrates]

I suppose it could be said that way.

Thanks. I have to admit I've done a poor job at phrasing my questions. So I'm not getting the answer to the correct question. After sleeping on it, I believe I now know what to ask.

When I ask, "What is the one God in the three persons?" You answer, "God is three persons." But that's not really the answer I'm looking for.

It would be like my asking, "What is the one thing in a human being?" and you answered, "A person is the one thing in a human being." In such a case, you wouldn't be answering my question, for what I'm really asking is this: "What is the essence in a human being?" The answer to that question would be, "A soul is the essence in a human being."

So let me rephrase my question. Instead of asking, "What is the one God in the three persons," I'll now ask, "What is the one essence in the three persons?"

Thank you for your patience. I hope I'm finally being clearer than mud!

 

[-V-]

... for what I'm really asking is this: "What is the essence in a human being?" The answer to that question would be, "A soul is the essence in a human being."

So let me rephrase my question. Instead of asking, "What is the one God in the three persons," I'll now ask, "What is the one essence in the three persons?"

It doesn't seem very much clearer to me. Is not God a living soul as well?

 

[SolomonVII]

If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

Three 'persons' ultimately defines personal relationships. The divine relationship is based in love, and friendship, and serving the other.
Trinity is the difference between love that flows inward towards self, and outward towards the other, the beloved, the difference between narcissism and egoism, and selflessness.

Jesus empties himself of everything in service to the Father; the Father in turn fills Jesus with his Spirit, and in turn Jesus shares that Spirit of Christ with the whole of the Church, those who love him.

 

[Pagan]

Three 'persons' ultimately defines personal relationships. The divine relationship is based in love, and friendship, and serving the other.
Trinity is the difference between love that flows inward towards self, and outward towards the other, the beloved, the difference between narcissism and egoism, and selflessness.

Jesus empties himself of everything in service to the Father; the Father in turn fills Jesus with his Spirit, and in turn Jesus shares that Spirit of Christ with the whole of the Church, those who love him.

You have a non-traditional view. I think that most Christians would not recognize it as having anything about the Trinity.

 

[JoeP222w]

If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

True. However, the Bible does not exhaustively explain the Trinity, else the Bible would be of infinite length, for how else can you explain the inifinite God?

The Bible reveals sufficient knowledge of the Trinity to those who will humble themselves and seek the truth of God.

 

[SolomonVII]

You have a non-traditional view. I think that most Christians would not recognize it as having anything about the Trinity.

Yesterday was Trinity Sunday. I was mainly just repeating what the priest in the Catholic parish I attend sermonized about.

Trinity: Loving relationship defines God's very being

For LaCugna, the Trinity names how God is God for us. It reminds us that while we experience relationships as something that we are always either moving into or withdrawing from, God does not enter into relationships. Indeed, God does not have relationships at all; God is perfect relationship. "God is essentially relational," she wrote.

Moreover, if God is perfect relationship, and we are created in the image of God, then the doctrine of the Trinity is concerned with our life as well. We are called by divine grace to enter into that mode of loving relationship that defines God's very being.

The first half of her magisterial work represented a rich exploration of the Christian tradition, East and West, as she demonstrated how over the centuries the Trinity receded from its early centrality to the theological margins of the Christian tradition. It was the early Christian experience of God's saving action through Christ and in the Spirit, not abstract reflection, that gave rise to Trinitarian doctrine, she insisted.

The Trinity evokes a God whose being is characterized by an eternal movement toward us, if you will, in redeeming love. Yet LaCugna also insisted that the Trinity names our graced movement toward God.​

Or, two men and a bird.. whatever works.

 

[spockrates]

...

It doesn't seem very much clearer to me. Is not God a living soul as well?

I'm assuming your question is rhetorical, and your answer to my question,

What is the one essence in the three persons?
​

is this:

A living soul is the one essence in the three persons.
​

But let me know if I'm mistaken and your question was actual, rather than rhetorical.

 

[spockrates]

Yesterday was Trinity Sunday. I was mainly just repeating what the priest in the Catholic parish I attend sermonized about.

Trinity: Loving relationship defines God's very being

For LaCugna, the Trinity names how God is God for us. It reminds us that while we experience relationships as something that we are always either moving into or withdrawing from, God does not enter into relationships. Indeed, God does not have relationships at all; God is perfect relationship. "God is essentially relational," she wrote.

Moreover, if God is perfect relationship, and we are created in the image of God, then the doctrine of the Trinity is concerned with our life as well. We are called by divine grace to enter into that mode of loving relationship that defines God's very being.

The first half of her magisterial work represented a rich exploration of the Christian tradition, East and West, as she demonstrated how over the centuries the Trinity receded from its early centrality to the theological margins of the Christian tradition. It was the early Christian experience of God's saving action through Christ and in the Spirit, not abstract reflection, that gave rise to Trinitarian doctrine, she insisted.

The Trinity evokes a God whose being is characterized by an eternal movement toward us, if you will, in redeeming love. Yet LaCugna also insisted that the Trinity names our graced movement toward God.​

Or, two men and a bird.. whatever works.

Hi, SolomonVII. Is Trinity Sunday an annual thing? I'm having difficulty understanding the words,

Indeed, God does not have relationships at all...
​

Can you explain what they mean?