Trinity

[Pagan]

Hi, Pagan. Great questions! So a simple (perhaps oversimplified?) way some Christians use to describe the Trinity is this:

God is one what in three who's.

The what, or thing, or it of God can also be called the substance or being of God, of which there is only one.

The who's of God are of course the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, which are persons who are distinct but not separate.

So there is one God in three persons.

There are also people who are Christians but deny the trinitarian doctrine, such as Oneness Pentecostals, some Church of God denominations, some Unitarians and Mormons and others. So one shouldn't assume a self-protest Christian accepts the idea.

So God is a what.
And a who, a when, and a
where, but not a why?

 

[spockrates]

So God is a what.
And a who, a when, and a
where, but not a why?

LOL! Well, a noun is a person, place or thing. According to some Christian thought, as nouns go, God is a thing in three persons, but not a place. So yeah, no. Not a where, though present everywhere. Not a when, though existing before when was and will be should when end. Not a why, but the one who gives us the reason why.

C.S. Lewis wrote that if all time existed in one book, God would be like a person reading the book, existing apart from it and able to turn to any page and observe it, or even rewrite it.

But enough of the fertile imagination of Christians. I'm interested in paganism, as I'm a great fan of Socrates, the Greek pantheon and other ancient religions. Please tell me what gods and goddesses you prefer, or are you a pagan of a different kind?

 

[Pagan]

LOL! Well, a noun is a person, place or thing. According to some Christian thought, as nouns go, God is a thing in three persons, but not a place. So yeah, no. Not a where, though present everywhere. Not a when, though existing before when was and will be should when end. Not a why, but the one who gives us the reason why.

C.S. Lewis wrote that if all time existed in one book, God would be like a person reading the book, existing apart from it and able to turn to any page and observe it, or even rewrite it.

But enough of the fertile imagination of Christians. I'm interested in paganism, as I'm a great fan of Socrates, the Greek pantheon and other ancient religions. Please tell me what gods and goddesses you prefer, or are you a pagan of a different kind?

Maybe officially, God is a what rather than a who, but every Sunday during the church service we sing a song, The Doxology. It begins, "Praise God from whom ... ." The priest who wrote the song must have thought of God as a who.

So God is a what,
A why, a who; now, always
And everywhere.

And if God is a
Who, he must be on first base.
Idono's on third.

I'm not a good source of information about my family's religion. I know more about Christianity than I have ever known about West African pagans. It varies, depending on the dominate culture in the area. In Christian areas it adopts Christian ideas, and in Muslim areas in adopts Muslim ideas. The religion goes by many names, Yoruba, Santeria, Voodoo, etc.

Yoruban people think of themselves as disconnected from their proper self, and finding that self ends the cycle of reincarnation. This is more or less the central idea of Yoruba in the same way that sin and salvation are the central ideas of Christianity.

 

[spockrates]

...

Maybe officially, God is a what rather than a who, but every Sunday during the church service we sing a song, The Doxology. It begins, "Praise God from whom ... ." The priest who wrote the song must have thought of God as a who.

So God is a what,
A why, a who; now, always
And everywhere.

And if God is a
Who, he must be on first base.
Idono's on third.

LOL! Love Abot and Costello.

So let's think it through:

1. There is one God
2. This one God is in three persons
3. This one God is a whom
4. A whom is a person

Therefore, should we praise a person who is in three persons? That is, is God one person and not one person?

I'm not a good source of information about my family's religion. I know more about Christianity than I have ever known about West African pagans. It varies, depending on the dominate culture in the area. In Christian areas it adopts Christian ideas, and in Muslim areas in adopts Muslim ideas. The religion goes by many names, Yoruba, Santeria, Voodoo, etc.

Yoruban people think of themselves as disconnected from their proper self, and finding that self ends the cycle of reincarnation. This is more or less the central idea of Yoruba in the same way that sin and salvation are the central ideas of Christianity.

Socrates thought of himself as disconnected from the only wise God. He believed he was in that God's presence before he was born, and so he knew all that God knew. Once born into an infant's body, he forgot all he knew. So in a sense he forgot who he was. He believed his goal, in fact the purpose of every person, was to regain what was lost and remember what was forgot and live by it. Finding that Wisdom that was himself would end the cycle of reincarnation.

Interesting how Alexander the Great whoes army reached the border of India before he died around age 30, connected India with the Greek city states in such a way that some of them adopted this idea of reincarnation. It seems some of the people of Africa, which was the home of his city Alexandria and part of his empire, did he same.

 

[Pagan]

...

LOL! Love Abot and Costello.

So let's think it through:

1. There is one God
2. This one God is in three persons
3. This one God is a whom
4. A whom is a person

Therefore, should we praise a person who is in three persons? That is, is God one person and not one person?



Socrates thought of himself as disconnected from the only wise God. He believed he was in that God's presence before he was born, and so he knew all that God knew. Once born into an infant's body, he forgot all he knew. So in a sense he forgot who he was. He believed his goal, in fact the purpose of every person, was to regain what was lost and remember what was forgot and live by it. Finding that Wisdom that was himself would end the cycle of reincarnation.

Interesting how Alexander the Great whoes army reached the border of India before he died around age 30, connected India with the Greek city states in such a way that some of them adopted this idea of reincarnation. It seems some of the people of Africa, which was the home of his city Alexandria and part of his empire, did he same.

The Bible says to praise God in dozens of places. For example Psalm 150 says how to praise God without saying why to praise God. . Does the Bible say that we should praise God because of his multiple personality?

 

[spockrates]

The Bible says to praise God in dozens of places. For example Psalm 150 says how to praise God without saying why to praise God. . Does the Bible say that we should praise God because of his multiple personality?

Yeah, no. It says,

Psalm 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
​

But if your point is that Psalm 150 doesn't say what's so great about God, or what might acts are worthy of such praise, then I have to agree. For who he is and what he's done that we should appreciate, we'd have to consider other passages. Maybe one of the other dozens you mentioned.

As far as multiple personalities, that's humorous, but not quite biblically accurate, a trinitarian would say.

 

[Pagan]

Yeah, no. It says,

Psalm 150:2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
​

But if your point is that Psalm 150 doesn't say what's so great about God, or what might acts are worthy of such praise, then I have to agree. For who he is and what he's done that we should appreciate, we'd have to consider other passages. Maybe one of the other dozens you mentioned.

As far as multiple personalities, that's humorous, but not quite biblically accurate, a trinitarian would say.

Okay, Psalm 51 offers two reasons to praise God.

But you asked, " ... should we praise a person who is in three persons?"

How does the number of persons make God any more or any less worthy of praise?

 

[spockrates]

Okay, Psalm 51 offers two reasons to praise God.

Agreed, and I'd say good reasons, wouldn't you too?

But you asked, " ... should we praise a person who is in three persons?"

Yeah, no. Sorry for being clear as mud! What I meant to ask was, "Do you worship one person who is in three persons?" I might add, "Or do you worship one God, who isn't a person but is in three persons, or do you worship one Godhead, who isn't a person but has three persons in it, or do you worship something altogerher different?"

How does the number of persons make God any more or any less worthy of praise?

It doesn't, I think.

 

[-V-]

A whom is a person
Therefore, should we praise a person who is in three persons? That is, is God one person and not one person?

"Whom" doesn't demand singularity. "Whom" is just as often plural. God being a "whom" does NOT equate to God being *a* (singular) person.

 

[Pagan]

Agreed, and I'd say good reasons, wouldn't you too?

Yeah, no. Sorry for being clear as mud! What I meant to ask was, "Do you worship one person who is in three persons?" I might add, "Or do you worship one God, who isn't a person but is in three persons, or do you worship one Godhead, who isn't a person but has three persons in it, or do you worship something altogerher different?"


It doesn't, I think.

Okay, we have no shortage of reasons to praise God.

Also, if I understand correctly, God is not a person; God is three persons. Apparently that is an important difference.

That must have been the reason Pilate crucified Jesus. Since God is not a person, he would have not have been entitled to due process under the 14th Amendment.

 

[Pagan]

The Bible uses the phrase, Spirit of God, about 100 times. I had assumed that Spirit of God and Holy Spirit amount to the same thing, but 1 Corinthians 12:3, "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit," uses both terms in one verse, so I wonder if Spirit of God and Holy Spirit differ in any way?

 

[Neogaia777]

If my Christian grandchildren ask me about the Trinity, may I say: that the Trinity organizes the Bible's information about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they relate to each other?

You could tell them that it's like a mom and dad, and a child or children... Relationally speaking... It it like that though, or is it close enough for a child for now...?

 

[Neogaia777]

You could tell them that it like a mom and dad, and a child or children... Relationally speaking... It it like that though, or is it close enough for a child for now...?

The love triangle between the three... The trinity is a family...

 

[spockrates]

"Whom" doesn't demand singularity. "Whom" is just as often plural. God being a "whom" does NOT equate to God being *a* (singular) person.

Hi again, -V-. Yeah, no. Think about it:

One God in three persons.​

Change God to person, you get:

One person in three persons.​

Isn't this a logical contradiction?

 

[spockrates]

Okay, we have no shortage of reasons to praise God.

Praise that!

Also, if I understand correctly, God is not a person; God is three persons. Apparently that is an important difference.

Important, yes. Trinity, no. Remember, the Trinity is not this:

One God is three persons.
​

Instead, the Trinity is this;

One God in three persons.
​

Changing the word in to the word is gives you an idea that's altogether different, I think. Check out this wiki article on the Trinity to confirm my premise:

Trinity - Wikipedia

That must have been the reason Pilate crucified Jesus. Since God is not a person, he would have not have been entitled to due process under the 14th Amendment.

The Bible does give a reason: Pilate's wife had a vivid dream that Pilate was going to crucify the son of a god and sent word to him to not do it. Pilate, thinking her dream a warning that Jesus was a demi-god (the offspring of a god having sexual intercourse with a woman, like Hercules being the son of Zeus), did his level best to not be found responsible for Jesus death. He washed his hands of the whole unjust business to protect himself from the wrath of this god.

 

[-V-]

Hi again, -V-. Yeah, no. Think about it:

One God in three persons.​

Change God to person, you get:

One person in three persons.​

Isn't this a logical contradiction?

Straw man fallacy. I don't know why you keep insisting on forcing that meaning into what I've said.

I have NEVER said, "God is a (singular) person". Just as I said to you in the other thread, and as I'm repeating now, God is a "who". Being a "who" does NOT automatically make God "one person". "Who" can be used for a group, there is NOTHING in its definition that forces "who" to be singular. So, please, stop your erroneous attempt at forcing that meaning.

 

[Pagan]

Hi again, -V-. Yeah, no. Think about it:

One God in three persons.​

Change God to person, you get:

One person in three persons.​

Isn't this a logical contradiction?

This is the first time I have heard anyone refer to God as being in a thing (or in three things) rather than being itself, a thing. ... or a who in three whos rather than itself, a who.

Don't use analogies, I learned in the first Trinity lesson. However, one might think of the Trinity as the number one, and the three persons as the cube roots of one. The cube roots all equal one, but they differ in time or phase so they differ from each other.

 

[Pagan]

The Bible uses the phrase, Spirit of God, about 100 times. I had assumed that Spirit of God and Holy Spirit amount to the same thing, but 1 Corinthians 12:3, "Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit," uses both terms in one verse, so I wonder if Spirit of God and Holy Spirit differ in any way?

1 Peter 2:8 “A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

Offers another example of how the Bible uses two words that mean the same thing in one verse.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Many christian groups qnd individuals do not believe in the trinity
As listed
church of Christ...conservative
Non denominational/ charismatic...some not all
Messianic Jewish christian

Outside of western protestant and catholic
Ethiopian christian
Underground chinese christian...

And others simply refuse to address or use the word TRINITY
Because it is not in the Bible
Or because it wasnt a doctrine until around the 3rd century AD

Best to keep it simple and not try to read beyond what the Bible tells us....

There is only one God...who is greater than the Son
The shema
Deuteronomy 6:4
There is only one begotten Son of God
Mathew 17:5
They share the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit also with all believers in the Son
John 3:5-8

 

[-V-]

And others simply refuse to address or use the word TRINITY Because it is not in the Bible

The *word* isn't there, but its definition certainly is.

The Trinity is this:

1. There is one God
2. The Father is God
3. Jesus is God
4. The Holy Spirit is God
5. Those three are distinct persons

And all of those points are found scattered throughout the Bible. "Trinity" simply takes all those pieces and expresses them in a single term.

Or because it wasnt a doctrine until around the 3rd century AD

Not true. It may not have been *made official* until that time, but it was believed LONG before then. Justin Martyr and Polycarp of Smyrna, for example, were writing about the Trinity by 150 AD.

Best to keep it simple and not try to read beyond what the Bible tells us....

"Trinity" does not "read beyond" what the Bible says. Again, it simply takes what the Bible says and puts it into a single term.

There is only one God...who is greater than the Son

Philippians 2 tells how Jesus "emptied" Himself of His divinity and became a "servant" during His ministry on earth. This is commonly called His "state of humiliation" by theologians. In such a state, it makes perfect sense for Jesus to refer to the Father as "greater" than Himself.

Note how in Revelation 1:8, God calls Himself "the alpha and omega." Then, in Revelation 22:13, Jesus says *HE* is "the alpha and the omega." That would seem rather dubious for Jesus to just usurp one of God's titles for Himself. Unless, of course, Jesus were God.