Trinity

[Hoghead1]

Actually it's a feminine plural name for a singular God.

NO, that isn't at all correct, Stan. It simply means multiple gods. Also, I don't think it means feminine at all.

 

[Hoghead1]

There is only one God --- read Isaiah.

Revelation 1 : 17-18 — The one God who was the first and the last died and rose again!
Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."
Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."
John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God."

The Trinity Revealed in the Resurrection
1. Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.
2. 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.
3. Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.
4. John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.

The Trinity Revealed in the Creation
1. The Father: Isaiah 64:8.
2. The Son: Colossians 1:15-17.
3. The Holy Spirit: Job 33:4.

God doesn't pray to Himself (garden of Gethsemane), God is not a ventriloquist(baptism of Jesus), The Father sent His Son, The Son sent the Holy Spirit, the Son said "WE will make our abode with you."

The Son is not the Father:

John 8
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 16
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Galatians 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are able to:

(A) Send or be sent by one another (John 3:17, 10:36, 14:23-26, 15:26, 16:7).

(B) Speak to each other (John 17:1-26, Romans 8:26-27, Hebrews 1:7-8) and about each other (Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, John 8:13-18).

(C) The Father and Son love each other (John 3:35, 5:20, 14OK, but then how is there one God? You seem to be saying the Father, Son, and Spirit constitute three unique personalities. If so, then you have three gods, not one. Also, you appear make the Father and Father alone God, the Boss of bosses, with Christ and the Spirit being lesser beings, the Father's lieutenants.

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit(Luke 3:16). Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26).
Jesus ascended to His Father.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.")

 

[Hoghead1]

You in red.
This is what I actually said:
May be a problem for you if you aren't robed in the Holy Spirit you are coming up with human reasoning which will fall short. If the Three are One then their jobs are the same on some level.
The you is used in the general sense.
I gave no accusation at all...if you re-read your post to me you said: Patience and prayer are fine things, but aren't going to do the whole job here. The trinity is a very complex and problematic doctrine and so we really need to put our thinking caps on.
Not a serious answer at all for this "serious theological discussion".
And yes, if the three are one their jobs not only overlap, but are identical...one sees a demonstration of this in Scripture. The Father and the Son are our Savior, Jesus says He'll send the Holy Spirit and refers to Himself as the Holy Spirit. They are One God.
Also, for a serious theological discussion, I think it is out-of-bounds on your part to make a comment like, "the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned there...I comment and point out via Scripture that He and you return with: yes, buts. Don't think for a moment that I don't see your shifts...here's an example...
I posted Isaiah 9:6-7 and you responded to these passages saying: Yes, but you see this says nothing abut the Holy Spirit.
I followed up with Isaiah 9:6-7 and an explanation to show the Holy Spirit is the Wonderful Counselor. You respond: Yes, I am well aware of that. I am simply pointing out that the Holy Spirit is often left out of the picture. John doesn't get to the Spirit until about chapter 13.
So, if you want to be taken so very serious then speak serious.

I am being very serious here. There is nothing in Isa. to indicate that the Wonderful Counselor refers to the Spirit, for example. Also, what I pointed out about John is absolutely true of John. It is also true, too, that all paul"s greetings are in the name of the Father and Son, with no mention of teh Spirit. I'm just giving you some facts of teh matter here.
Also, if you are going to think of all three Persons as doing the exact, same job, then you have no way of differentiating them. So how are there three? How are they different?
Yes, I am very serious about my comments on patience and prayer. They are important, but so, too, is putting on your thinking cap. Some Christians today have lapsed into what I call cowboy theology. You don't need to study church history, you don't need to study the church fathers, you certainly don't need to study theology, just sit back and take a lazy anti-intellectual approach. Forget it. That simply leads to a boring faith that fails to stimulate the intellect.

 

[StanJ]

NO, that isn't at all correct, Stan. It simply means multiple gods. Also, I don't think it means feminine at all.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Elohim/elohim.html

 

[Butch5]

It was an answer to the heresies that were rampant at that time. The One God in Three Persons has existed eternally.

That's not what the Scriptures teach and it's not what the first Christians believed.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Do you need a hug today?

The old Testiment scriptures themselves aside from the Jews humanity doesn't teach about God the Son.

Actually it does but you just don't seem to know the bible!

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Whoops huh?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

That's not what the Scriptures teach and it's not what the first Christians believed.

Let me introduce you to what's always been in the bible about the triune God despite you unfounded claims.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Exodus 3 : 14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Deu 4:4 Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is Lord only

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it no robbery to be equal with God:
7 But he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made like unto men, and was found in shape as a man.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator of one: but God is one.

 

[Hoghead1]

Let me introduce you to what's always been in the bible about the triune God despite you unfounded claims.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Exodus 3 : 14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Deu 4:4 Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is Lord only

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it no robbery to be equal with God:
7 But he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made like unto men, and was found in shape as a man.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator of one: but God is one.

You keep failing to mention the Holy Spirit. What gives?

 

[Butch5]

Let me introduce you to what's always been in the bible about the triune God despite you unfounded claims.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Exodus 3 : 14 And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Deu 4:4 Hear, O Israel, The Lord our God is Lord only

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
14 And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Mark 12:32
Then that Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth, that there is one God, and that there is none but he,

Romans 3:30
For it is one God, who shall justify circumcision of faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, which is the man Christ Jesus,

John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, I have been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me, hath seen my Father: how then sayest thou, Show us thy Father?

Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let the same mind be in you that was even in Christ Jesus,
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it no robbery to be equal with God:
7 But he made himself of no reputation, and took on him the form of a servant, and was made like unto men, and was found in shape as a man.

1 Corinthians 8:4
Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Galatians 3:20
Now a Mediator is not a Mediator of one: but God is one.

So, where is the triune God? I see several passages that say there is one God.

 

[Hoghead1]

A heresy is only an heresy if it goes against God's word. It is a fact that most main line churches beliefs are wrong!

It would be more accurate to say "if it goes against one's interpretation of God's word."

 

[Colter]

Actually it does but you just don't seem to know the bible!

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Whoops huh?

Nope, the Jews didn't think of God as having a divine Son through whom the world was created much less a Trinity of heavenly beings then or now. The quote you are forcing Jesus into is not understood in Judaism they way it sounds. http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/prooftext6is96.html

 

[Hoghead1]

The Jews largely rejected God and His word throughout the OT and the Jews rejected Jesus even when He was among them which makes you point moot.

No, the Jews rejected Jesus because he did not fulfill OT prophecies, which were that the Messiah would restore the nation of Israel to its former glory.

 

[4x4toy]

Only begotten Son means the only .. God the FATHER
But the angel told the virgin the Holy Spirit not God the father would overshadow her and she would as a virgin conceive . So the Holy Spirit is God
Gods Word became flesh , the Son is both flesh and God
God's

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Nope, the Jews didn't think of God as having a divine Son through whom the world was created much less a Trinity of heavenly beings then or now. The quote you are forcing Jesus into is not understood in Judaism they way it sounds. http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/prooftext6is96.html

You claimed "It reveals that God has a divine Son, but because the Old Testiment doesn't teach that, the Jews largely rejected Jesus based on their scripture." And now you know you're wrong and just can't bring yourself to be honest. Because this is TEACHING is indeed found in the OT....
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

OOPS again eh?

 

[Hoghead1]

You claimed "It reveals that God has a divine Son, but because the Old Testiment doesn't teach that, the Jews largely rejected Jesus based on their scripture." And now you know you're wrong and just can't bring yourself to be honest. Because this is TEACHING is indeed found in the OT....
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

OOPS again eh?

I hat to say it, but the "oops" is on your part. "The everlasting father" can also be translated as the Father of Eternity, which denotes an eart5hly king presiding over his people. The "mighty God" can also be translated as "God-like Hero." It means that God works through the king, not that the king is God per se.

 

[Colter]

No, the Jews rejected Jesus because he did not fulfill OT prophecies, which were that the Messiah would restore the nation of Israel to its former glory.

You claimed "It reveals that God has a divine Son, but because the Old Testiment doesn't teach that, the Jews largely rejected Jesus based on their scripture." And now you know you're wrong and just can't bring yourself to be honest. Because this is TEACHING is indeed found in the OT....
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

OOPS again eh?

It's not surprising that Jewish believers in Jesus sought to justify their faith in him as the Jewish Messiah using shadowy old Testiment prophetic prose. I DO see what you are saying it's just that Judaism doesn't agree with your interpretation of this line. And this hardly substantiates the Idea that Jews believed in a Triune deity because they absolutely did not! They were decidedly monotheistic with NO common belief in a three headed God. Their concept of a Messiah was that of a human priest, prophet, King type of figure that would take up David's seat, fight off the yoke of Israels oppressors and rule the world from Israel.

 

[StanJ]

No, the Jews rejected Jesus because he did not fulfill OT prophecies, which were that the Messiah would restore the nation of Israel to its former glory.

There's over 300 references in the Old Testament to the coming of the Messiah and I have not seen one that says; "he came to restore the nation of Israel to its former glory". Where exactly did you find that?

 

[Hoghead1]

There's over 300 references in the Old Testament to the coming of the Messiah and I have not seen one that says; "he came to restore the nation of Israel to its former glory". Where exactly did you find that?

Throughout the OT. Look at what Isaiah has to day. How can you miss it?

 

[Colter]

The times of King Soloman were considered "the golden age" of Isreal. Isaiah 43 indicates a return and revival of Israels lost glory.

 

[Norbert L]

There's over 300 references in the Old Testament to the coming of the Messiah and I have not seen one that says; "he came to restore the nation of Israel to its former glory". Where exactly did you find that?

One verse "hints" at it. So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” Acts 1:6 It's hinted at because the idea of "restore the kingdom to Israel" is not being disputed by Jesus.