trinity question

[The Gregorian]

I've questioned a lot of things about the trinity... I've seen very few verses that can be interpreted as supporting the trinity and no verses that directly suggest the Father and Son being the same person... However I've seen many scriptures saying they are distinct, seperate individuals... serving the same cause... but not in equality (i.e. the Son being a servant of the father/having an individual personality).

Here's the most direct verse that I've seen though:

8:6]There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him

So.... how can you take a direct statement "There is only one God, the Father" and say that his son is equal to him?

 

[Deren]

So.... how can you take a direct statement "There is only one God, the Father" and say that his son is equal to him?

By reading the rest of Scripture and not just isolating one verse.

 

[Apex]

I've questioned a lot of things about the trinity... I've seen very few verses that can be interpreted as supporting the trinity and no verses that directly suggest the Father and Son being the same person... However I've seen many scriptures saying they are distinct, seperate individuals... serving the same cause... but not in equality (i.e. the Son being a servant of the father/having an individual personality).

Here's the most direct verse that I've seen though:



So.... how can you take a direct statement "There is only one God, the Father" and say that his son is equal to him?
[/size]

The trinity was not part of origional christianity. It wasnt untill the Arian controversy and the Nicean Council in an attempt to completley snuff out Arianism that the trinity developed.

 

[drstevej]

The trinity was not part of origional christianity. It wasnt untill the Arian controversy and the Nicean Council in an attempt to completley snuff out Arianism that the trinity developed.

The Trinity is eternal.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I think you really don't want to know what the Word of God teaches, do you? Cause the Scriptures are there and they are not hidden,
And you are part of a [a person in] a multibillionity called 'Adam', which is multiplied to an unknown power [to us]; yet YHWH is only a multiplicity of three persons, eternally: and the second Person is come in New Creation human being flesh as our Kinsman-Redeemer/Avenger, forever.
There are persons in Adam; there are Persons in YHWH.
That's just Bible my friend, and it is easy to find.

 

[DjDan]

I think you really don't want to know what the Word of God teaches, do you? Cause the Scriptures are there and they are not hidden,
And you are part of a [a person in] a multibillionity called 'Adam', which is multiplied to an unknown power [to us]; yet YHWH is only a multiplicity of three persons, eternally: and the second Person is come in New Creation human being flesh as our Kinsman-Redeemer/Avenger, forever.
There are persons in Adam; there are Persons in YHWH.
That's just Bible my friend, and it is easy to find.

woah... can your post be any more confusing?

 

[Deren]

woah... can your post be any more confusing?

Not any more than the Mormons saying that God is a man, when the Bible says that he isn't. Or that Jesus is Satan's brother, when the Bible says that Jesus created the being who would become Satan. Or the Mormon line which tells us that the Holy Spirit ("Ghost") can only be in one place at at time, while the Bible says that he is in every person that God has regenerated.

 

[DjDan]

Not any more than the Mormons saying that God is a man, when the Bible says that he isn't. Or that Jesus is Satan's brother, when the Bible says that Jesus created the being who would become Satan. Or the Mormon line which tells us that the Holy Spirit ("Ghost") can only be in one place at at time, while the Bible says that he is in every person that God has regenerated.

one word: eh?

 

[2ducklow]

I've questioned a lot of things about the trinity... I've seen very few verses that can be interpreted as supporting the trinity and no verses that directly suggest the Father and Son being the same person... However I've seen many scriptures saying they are distinct, seperate individuals... serving the same cause... but not in equality (i.e. the Son being a servant of the father/having an individual personality).

Here's the most direct verse that I've seen though:



So.... how can you take a direct statement "There is only one God, the Father" and say that his son is equal to him?
[/size]

The son is not equal to God the Father. that is a direct contradiction of Jesus own words, "My Father is greater than I." Many would say 'oh well see Jesus is equal to the father now that he is in heaven." NOT. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father right now. A subordinate position next to God.

I can say unequivocaly that for me there is but one God, the Father. I don't have to resort to illogic such as 3 is one. for me one is one, and god is one and god the father is the only true god. all other gods are false gods per 1 cor. 8;6. I am unequviocally a monothiest. . One god , God the Father, that's it. there aren'tany other gods (there are false gods but they don't count). I use to say that Jesus is god in the sense that all the fullness of the divinity dwells in him, but this is fudging. Jesus is a man, not god, god is not a man.

Sorry for the tautology.

 

[The Gregorian]

bleh... again, no one replied to the actual listing. I AM aware that the verse goes on to say 'there is one lord, Jesus...'. That seems to confuse people, so I left it out, but really it only clarifies that Jesus has a title other than his Father.

So... again...

8:6]There is for us only one God, the Father...

[/SIZE]

how does that mean anything other than "there is one God, the Father?"

Now I can accept that God and his son are one as we are one with adam... Adam created us since he's our forefather... likewise the Father is the Sson's father... therefore they are related... but I am not actually adam. I'm not equal to adam. Likewise, the son (though he IS a spiritual being with great authority) is not his father, nore is he equal to his father just because he's of the same physical composure.

I wouldn't say that Jesus is just a person though... he had a human form at one point (maybe more... but you get the point). But he existed before his human form, and continues to exist afterword...

 

[EchoPneuma]

Good thing we don't have to understand all this stuff to be saved. The scripture that Gregorian shows does say what it says....and yet Jesus calls Himself "I AM" in the gospels and receives worship from Thomas who calls Him "My Lord and MY GOD". By receiving worship He was showing He believed Himself to be God (because only God is worthy of worship) and He didn't correct Thomas.

So there, once again, appears to be a paradox in scriptures. What is the truth? I guess we will just have to go to God and ask Him....

 

[2ducklow]

Good thing we don't have to understand all this stuff to be saved. The scripture that Gregorian shows does say what it says....and yet Jesus calls Himself "I AM" in the gospels and receives worship from Thomas who calls Him "My Lord and MY GOD". By receiving worship He was showing He believed Himself to be God (because only God is worthy of worship) and He didn't correct Thomas.

So there, once again, appears to be a paradox in scriptures. What is the truth? I guess we will just have to go to God and ask Him....

ONe thing that is abundantly clear to me is that the truth is not a contradiction. If there is only one god, and there is, then you can't have several gods such as Jesus and god the father and god the holy spirit. that is 3 gods and contradicts scripture that says there is only one god. no scripture says jesus is god, no scripture says 'god the holy spirit'. therefore, ot interpret scripture to mean, such as you have here, that Jesus is God contradicts 1 cor. 8:6' there is unto us but one god, the father.''

 

[gort]

I've questioned a lot of things about the trinity... I've seen very few verses that can be interpreted as supporting the trinity and no verses that directly suggest the Father and Son being the same person... However I've seen many scriptures saying they are distinct, seperate individuals... serving the same cause... but not in equality (i.e. the Son being a servant of the father/having an individual personality).

Here's the most direct verse that I've seen though:



So.... how can you take a direct statement "There is only one God, the Father" and say that his son is equal to him?
[/SIZE]

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done [it], calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I [am] he.

Did Jehovah say this?

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

Did Jehovah say this?

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last.

Did Jehovah say this?

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Who said this?

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Who said this?

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

And who said this?

You're correct, there are no verses that say the Father and the Son are the same person.

Trinitarians don't believe they are the same person, either. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father.


<><

 

[Cleany]

for me the trinity is one of the biggest red herrings in christianity, it doesnt matter what exactly god is like, because we will never understand anyway - and whats the point of saying that jesus "is god" or isnt, what is important is understanding what he was trying to say, not what his nature is in comparison to the father

gah!

 

[Cleany]

oh but im not debunking this thread, i think this is interesting. if i had to i would fall more on the monotheistic side of things.

the question i would like to ask about the trinity is -

"what does it matter if jesus isnt fully god" ?

 

[hybrid]

oh but im not debunking this thread, i think this is interesting. if i had to i would fall more on the monotheistic side of things.

the question i would like to ask about the trinity is -

"what does it matter if jesus isnt fully god" ?

Some have thought to find such a statement in the conception that Christ is a prophet. They would empty the expression, "Son of God," of any unique meaning; they would make Christ the Son of God in the same sense that any great prophet could be conceived of as a son of God, but that such a solution of the problem of Christ would be inadequate for the practical task of redemption. If it be urged that Christ is a prophet who in Himself realized the moral ideal, we feel constrained to reply that this really puts Christ at a vast distance from us. Such a doctrine of Christ's person would make Him the supreme religious genius, but the human genius stands apart from the ordinary mass of men. He may gather up into Himself and realize the ideals of men; He may voice the aspirations of men and realize those aspirations; but He may not be able to make men like unto Himself. ; the appreciation of Christ has not proved successful in itself in making men like unto Christ.

If, on the contrary, without attempting formal theological construction, we put some real meaning into the idea of Christ as the Son of God and hold fast to a unique relationship between Christ and God which makes Christ the greatest gift that God can give us, we find indeed that Christ is lifted up to essentially divine existence; but we find also that this divinity does not estrange Him from us. Redemption becomes feasible, not merely when we have a revelation of how far up man can go, but when we have also a revelation of how far down God can come. If we can think of God as having in some real way come into the world through His Son Jesus Christ, that revelation makes Christ the Lord who can lead us to redemption.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

 

[hybrid]

bleh... again, no one replied to the actual listing. I AM aware that the verse goes on to say 'there is one lord, Jesus...'. That seems to confuse people, so I left it out, but really it only clarifies that Jesus has a title other than his Father.

Jesus Christ is EQUALLY ( like the Father ) called Saviour,
Jesus Christ is EQUALLY ( like the Father ) called Reddemer,
Jesus Christ is EQUALLY ( like the Father ) called Holy One,
Jesus Christ is EQUALLY ( like the Father ) called I AM. First and last,
Jesus Christ is EQUALLY ( like the Father ) called Lord and
Jesus Christ is EQUALLY ( like the Father ) called God.

did i missed anymore titles that the two are EQUALLY called?

Titus 3:3-7
4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
NIV

2 Peter 1:11
1 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. NIV

Titus 2:13-14
13 while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Jude 25
5 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Rev 1:17 NASU
"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Rev 22:13,16 NASU
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Rev 1:8 NASU
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 21:6-7 NIV
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

 

[EchoPneuma]

ONe thing that is abundantly clear to me is that the truth is not a contradiction. If there is only one god, and there is, then you can't have several gods such as Jesus and god the father and god the holy spirit. that is 3 gods and contradicts scripture that says there is only one god. no scripture says jesus is god, no scripture says 'god the holy spirit'. therefore, ot interpret scripture to mean, such as you have here, that Jesus is God contradicts 1 cor. 8:6' there is unto us but one god, the father.''

Then what do you do with this scripture that TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your scripture?

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do you deny that this is talking about Jesus?

 

[Cleany]

Some have thought to find such a statement in the conception that Christ is a prophet. They would empty the expression, "Son of God," of any unique meaning; they would make Christ the Son of God in the same sense that any great prophet could be conceived of as a son of God, but that such a solution of the problem of Christ would be inadequate for the practical task of redemption. If it be urged that Christ is a prophet who in Himself realized the moral ideal, we feel constrained to reply that this really puts Christ at a vast distance from us. Such a doctrine of Christ's person would make Him the supreme religious genius, but the human genius stands apart from the ordinary mass of men. He may gather up into Himself and realize the ideals of men; He may voice the aspirations of men and realize those aspirations; but He may not be able to make men like unto Himself. ; the appreciation of Christ has not proved successful in itself in making men like unto Christ.

If, on the contrary, without attempting formal theological construction, we put some real meaning into the idea of Christ as the Son of God and hold fast to a unique relationship between Christ and God which makes Christ the greatest gift that God can give us, we find indeed that Christ is lifted up to essentially divine existence; but we find also that this divinity does not estrange Him from us. Redemption becomes feasible, not merely when we have a revelation of how far up man can go, but when we have also a revelation of how far down God can come. If we can think of God as having in some real way come into the world through His Son Jesus Christ, that revelation makes Christ the Lord who can lead us to redemption.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

i said that i didnt think that jesus was "fully god", but that didnt mean that i thought he was only a prophet. i most certainly believe that jesus is lord, and i think that your underlined piece here is very good, but it is phrases like "fully god" that i have a problem with.

i think that jesus was as "fully" god as it might be possible given that he was also a man. "fully god and fully man" i find utterly preposterous, and quite unecessary. there are many characteristics of god that jesus does not fulfill, and jesus talks of the father as "greater" than he.

for me the problem that i see it is that people like to have a defined answer, but i dont, and i dont think that there is one. "jesus is lord" is just about the best way that you can say it!

Then what do you do with this scripture that TOTALLY CONTRADICTS your scripture?

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Do you deny that this is talking about Jesus?

i dont know about him but i do!

 

[hybrid]

i said that i didnt think that jesus was "fully god", but that didnt mean that i thought he was only a prophet. i most certainly believe that jesus is lord, and i think that your underlined piece here is very good, but it is phrases like "fully go d" that i have a problem with.

i know what you mean, sorry if i used your post to express the underlined piece. i'm happy also that you liked it.

i think that jesus was as "fully" god as it might be possible given that he was also a man. "fully god and fully man" i find utterly preposterous, and quite unecessary.

what about the phrase " God in the flesh", is that palatable to you?

there are many characteristics of god that jesus does not fulfill,

yap, it's quite problematic enough to begin with as to how god was to go about entering creation to save us and convinced that he loves us without totally consuming it with his glorius presence.

i would have settled for the phrase "son of god" to characterize Jesus, but as you see lots of people gave all sorts of meaning to the phrase SOG. the son of god were reduced to mean angels, glorified or deified man, demi-god, etc. which was actually the point of my post to you.

that is why i like the phrase "god from god". it captures the thought of Jesus as truly the only begotten son of god.

and jesus talks of the father as "greater" than he.

as the son was from his father, Jesus was from god. jesus acknowleges that his deity was from the one true god. in that sense since the father was the source of his deity, the father is greater than he.

on the other hand, jesus was said to be equal to the father, because by virtue of his sonship he possessed the essential qualities of being god. IOW, they are not twins, peers nor clones.

for me the problem that i see it is that people like to have a defined answer, but i dont, and i dont think that there is one. "jesus is lord" is just about the best way that you can say it!

god is the only Lord I acknowledge.

that is definitive enough for me.