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Trinity question

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Simonline

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Hiker of faith said:
I'm not good at all this philisophical stuff, but I'll put in my .02 and you all can look at it and laugh or look at it and ponder (or look at it and agree).

Nothing to laugh at here...an honest attempt to articulate what you understand about God and worthy of being taken seriously.

Hiker of faith said:
I see the Godhead (or trinity or whatever you want to call it) as being 3 in 1. There is a father, a son, and a holy spirit, but they are all the same, yet somehow different.

So far, so good.

Hiker of faith said:
I believe it is much like water, steam, and ice. All the same, yet somehow different. And they can all become each other (I don't like that wording, but its the best I can think of right now but as an expample Ice is water once you warm it up, steam is water once you cool it down, etc.......God is Jesus is the Holy Spriit). Thats just the way I see it.

The problem with this metaphor is that it is actually the ancient heresy of Sabellianism (or Modalism) because in order to be true to the Trinitarian revelation of Scripture H2O has to be water, ice and steam simultaneously (in order to accurately represent the Tri-Unity (3in1) of the Divine Being) As H2O can only be water, ice and steam consecutively (one after the other) rather than simultaneously (all at the same time) then it is simply an illustration of Sabellianism or 'Modalism' and therefore a bad metaphor [Now do you understand why God says no created thing can come even remotely close to accurately representing me therefore don't even try because no matter how well intentioned your effort it will inevitably cause you to have a warped understanding of who I am and what I am really like. Thus, 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them for I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.' (Ex.20:4-6)?]

The three separate Persons of the Trinitarian Godhead whilst all being One and the same Being, can neither 'swap places' nor 'stand in for each other' by assuming each others role or relationship [see: the Athanasian Creed]. They are NOT interchangable. They can however 'stand in for each other' as God in relation to creatures. Thus, when the Messiah (i.e. God the Son) tells his disciples that he (as God) will be with them always, even to the very end of the age (Matt.28:20) he (as God) honours that commitment by sending his Holy Spirit (who is also the same God) so that he (i.e. God the Holy Spirit) can be with all the disciples simultaneously no matter when or where they are (something which the Messiah (in corporeal form - i.e. part human) could never do). This is not a 'confidence trick' or a 'smoke and mirrors trick' because they are actually one and the same Divine Being whilst still being separate and distinct Persons. This is not like a set of twins playing games by repeatedly exchanging places since twins are actually two separate and distinct beings as well as two separate and distinct persons. Not so with the three Persons of the Godhead. Whilst being separate and distinct Persons they are actually One and the same Being.


Hiker of faith said:
As for why God the son would refer to God the father as being greater then him, I think a big part of this is because while on earth Jesus was an example of how to live the christain life. He prayed to God the father to be an example for everybody that saw and heard him.
What I just wrote probably has huge holes in it, because the trinity is not something that can easily be explained, but this is the way I see it in my mind (plus I don't do the whole debate thing often). A large part of the belief is all based upon faith, and how you interpret the bible.

Peace,
John

When the Messiah declared that his Father was greater than he was (Jn.14:28) he was comparing his human nature as a creature with the Infinite Divine Nature of the Creator, therefore God was bound to be greater than any creature (including the human Messiah). However, Jn.10:30 records the Messiah declaring that he and his Father are one and the same Being (in other words the Messiah was declaring himself to be the Infinite Divine Creator). He was declaring that he shared the same Infinite Divine Nature with his Father in Heaven. That this was understood by those who heard him is evidenced by their reaction to his words in their picking up stones to try and stone the Messiah to death (vv.31-33).

Whilst your last sentence is true we need to ensure that our faith is in the objective Truth which God has revealed to all Mankind and not simply an intellectual 'idol' of our own making ['I think God is like this...' (because this makes more sense and is easier both to understand and explain to others)].

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dcyates said:
You're failing to properly appreciate, Gregorian, the actual significance of the title 'Lord' within the Jewish context of the Second Temple period. To them, 'Lord', or adonai, was a title that was to be applied exclusively to YHWH, only to God. As you are likely already aware, in most English translations of the Hebrew Bible today whenever you come to the title 'LORD', with all its letters capitalized, it indicates that this is a place in the original Hebrew text where one would have found the four letters that make up the divine name YHWH. But, coupled with the fact that the ancient Hebrew lacked vowels, and that the Jews refused to actually verbalize out loud the name of God for fear of inadvertently mispronouncing it, the actual pronounciation of the divine name became lost. Thus, whenever someone read the Tanakh--and this was always done out loud (indeed the practice of reading silently to oneself is a relatively recent development in history)--when they came to the divine name they would automatically employ the Hebrew reading principle called 'ketib qere', and replace 'YHWH' with the Hebrew word for 'lord', adonai. Now, the words 'ketib' and 'qere' mean 'that which is written' and 'that which is read', respectively. In other words, 'that which is written' is YHWH, but 'that which is read' is adonai, or Lord. We should also take into account that, having been all but completely cured of their incessant idolatry by the Babylonian exile, the majority of the post-exilic Jews were fiercely monotheistic. Hence, the Hebrews of the Second Temple period reserved the title of 'lord' exclusively to YHWH. As a result, for any Second Temple Jew--and let's remember that all the NT writers were Second Temple Jews (even if Luke was not actually Jewish--and I strongly suspect that he indeed was--he nevertheless certainly had the mind of a Jew)--to refer to Jesus as Lord is of simply huge significance. It essentially amounts to the same thing as calling him YHWH, or God.






Oh, but it does. Paul here in his epistle to the Philippians asserts that because of Jesus' humble obedience--even to the point of death on a cross--God "highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name" (2.9) Please tell me, what could that name be? What could be the only name "which is above every name"? The only possible answer, the only possible name which could be descibed as above every name is the name I was just referring to above, the divine name itself: YHWH. Paul then immediately follows this with a quote from Isaiah 45.23, "that at the name of Jesus 'EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW... AND EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS' that Jesus Christ is Lord (vv. 10-11). Look up Isaiah 45.23 and ask yourself, 'Who is doing the talking here'? YHWH himself. In fact, Paul here is quoting from one of the most fiercely monotheistic sections in all of Scripture, citing words that YHWH applies to himself, and that therefore any Jew would apply to no one else other than YHWH. And yet he applies these words to Jesus of Nazareth.
What's more, again as alluded to above, the very fact that Paul or any of the other writers of the NT would refer to Jesus as "Lord," as he does here in Phil. 2.11 is (to be so bold as to quote myself) of simply huge significance. To us Westerners of the early 21st-century the title of 'Lord' means relatively little. But to Second Temple Jews of the 1st-century, the term 'Lord' is nothing less than an evasive euphemism for the divine name itself. Thus, Paul is here saying, God bestowed on Jesus the one and only name which is above every other name, the divine name itself, YHWH. And that it is to Jesus that "'every knee should bow... and every tongue should confess' that Jesus Christ is" adonai, the Lord. The implication is really quite clear: Jesus is God!

Moreover, getting more directly to your point, Paul is here also quoting from a section of Scripture where YHWH explicitly declares he will not share his glory with anyone else (Isa. 42.8; 48.11). Yet, as you've already acknolwedged, Paul here explains that God has "highly exalted" Jesus. In other words, he has highly glorified him.



It is here that any study of NT christology must begin (but almost never does). Psalm 110, especially v. 1, is the most cited OT passage in the NT (Mt 22.44; 26.64; Mk 12.36; Lk 20.42; Acts 2.34-35; 1 Cor 15.25; Eph 1.20; Col 3.1; Heb 1.3, 13; 5.6, 10; 6.20; 7.17, 21; 8.1; 10.12; 12.2; 1 Pet 3.22). Psalm 110 is a 'messianic enthronement' song. Its language therefore bears primarily on Jesus' messiahship, not his deity. Although it should be noted that it also does not in any way deny it.



Phew! It's late, I'm tired and highly delighted that I don't have to set to try and correct any of this post because it is absolutely spot on! Preach it brother! :thumbsup:

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Hiker of faith said:
I see the Godhead (or trinity or whatever you want to call it) as being 3 in 1. There is a father, a son, and a holy spirit, but they are all the same, yet somehow different. I believe it is much like water, steam, and ice. All the same, yet somehow different.

"somehow the same, yet somehow different" isn't a very good discription... the water/ice/steam illustration is much more clear.

So let me understand: You believe that The father IS the son when he's playing certain rolls, then stops being the son and becomes the holy spirit, then stops being the holy spirit to become the father again, correct? Sort of just three different "secret identities" of God.... i.e. Clark kent IS superman... but the two identities are used in different rolls?

What I just wrote probably has huge holes in it, because the trinity is not something that can easily be explained, but this is the way I see it in my mind (plus I don't do the whole debate thing often). A large part of the belief is all based upon faith, and how you interpret the bible.

Peace,
John

That's OK. Like me and Sim said... although we disagree with eachother, we're both here to learn and teach. We figure... all we can do is provide our views, and the evidence we use to support them, hopefully pointing out something that other people may not have thought of before. If we're right, they'll agree, if they're wrong, they'll understand where we're coming from and be able to help us to learn what's "Right"

That having been said... everything is simple. Look at every design God's made... if you stop looking so close, there's a simple answer for everything. There is nothing in nature that "is the same but yet some how different in the glory of the oneness of ... blah blah blah" Everything is "one thing" or "the other" or "a varient of the two" We are in God's image, correct? Why can't we even IMAGINE something like the trinity? Isn't that something God would... kinda want us... to ... in some way understand? If he is one with Jesus, but seperate, yet one in the same, in a different form, but the same personality, in the same body, but at different times... etc. etc. etc.... Why would he simply say "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved" and why would his Son say that it was his Father who sent him. That he is a servant of his father, and that soon he would go back to his Father, and his God. (yes, Jesus called the Father "[his] God."
 
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sim said:
No. That is a variation on the ancient heresy of Sabellianism (the modern term is 'Modalism') where God is believed to be essentially Unitarian (One Being/One Person) and therefore can only be 'one person at a time', either the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit but not the Father, Son and Holy Spirt simultaneously (as with the Trinity). The problem with this idea is the simultaneous manifestation of all three persons of the Godhead at the baptism of the Messiah.


Exactly the point I was going to make if you accepted that explaination.

YHWH is not simply 'the Father' alone, YHWH is the name of God in totality, the ONE BEING who is also Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three Persons of the Godhead are equally YHWH and as such equally Divine, Eternal, Infinite, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Immutable etc.


first, I just wnat to point out the word you used: Immutable... He's Immutable, yet one yet individual yet a communal existance of three?

The three Persons of the Godhead are not 'physically joined' (Jn.4:24). Yes, only the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) is the Messiah. The Father and the Holy Spirit are not the Messiah. Yes, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ARE three separate and distinct Persons, but they are, all three, still part of the ONE BEING.


This is what always confused me. They aren't physically joined (enter baptism illustration when Jesus was in one place, the holy spirit was in another place, and the Father was talking from heaven, i.e. in another place)... and as you put it they are three distinct persons with individual... 'attitudes' for lack of a better word. They obviously have seperate 'minds' (refer to Matthew 24:36)

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But of that day and hour no one has knowledge, not even the angels in heaven, or the Son, but the Father only.
[/font]

therefore the father knows things the son doesn't... so they aren't bound to eachother's souls.... If they have seperate minds/bodies/AND souls and one is greater than the other... how are they one "being?"
 
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sim said:
No. I don't have to decide. I have to be true to what God has revealed to Mankind concerning himself through his word, spoken, written and living. God has revealed himself to be ONE GOD who is also three separate and distinct Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am aware of the fact that this is difficult to comprehend and doesn't make logical sense but it is the Truth as God has revealed it to Mankind.
sim said:
The bottom line is that some aspects of the Truth simply cannot be worked out and understood through human reason alone, they have to be revealed to Man through Divine revelation


1 corinthians 8:6 said:
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him.


1: These two disagree... The bible says: "there is...one God" like you said. But it specifies that one God as "the Father" then it seperates Jesus as being Lord... but NOT God.

If it's not logical, and there's more evidence in the bible saying it's not true than it is true... then it's illogical to think that it is true? Jesus specifically said "I am God's SON" not "I am God" this is a simple statement. He is God's son... a divine being, sent to earth by his father... but not actually his Father... He didn't say "I'm going back to heaven to become God" he said "I am going back to sit at the right hand of my father." To sit at someone's right hand is a subserviant position. It is NOT equal. It's the place of HIGHEST respect (second to the person who's right hand you're sitting at)... but it is NOT a place of equality.

[/font]
 
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sim said:
to pray to anyone other than God in heaven was idolatry

exactly why it's important whether Jesus is equal to God or not. Idolatry is the most disrespectful act there is. Jesus repeatedly said he was here to teach people of his father (not himself) as in:

Revelation 1:6 said:
And has made us to be a kingdom and priests to his God and Father; to him let glory and power be given for ever and ever. So be it.

To call Jesus a God is to make God's son an idol against the Father. What sort of evil serpant would try to pit the Father against the Son (pun intended)?

God is ONE BEING, consisting of three Persons, all sharing the same nature.


One being sharing the same nature consisting of three different persons in different forms, of different ranks, with different personality, including one personality that knows things that no one else does(
Matthew 24:36), and who all other personalities are subservient to? How is this "one being?" What other definition of the word "being" is there than a physical body/soul/mentality?


 
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You're failing to properly appreciate, Gregorian, the actual significance of the title 'Lord' within the Jewish context of the Second Temple period. To them, 'Lord', or adonai, was a title that was to be applied exclusively to YHWH, only to God. As you are likely already aware, in most English translations of the Hebrew Bible today whenever you come to the title 'LORD', with all its letters capitalized, it indicates that this is a place in the original Hebrew text where one would have found the four letters that make up the divine name YHWH.


Do you see the backwards logic? "Jesus is God because, Jesus is 'lord' and 'YHWH' is translated to 'lord' in most bibles, therefore Jesus must be YHWH." That just isn't true. YHWH isn't something that translates into "Lord" (which is what Jesus is). YHWH is God's NAME which translates into "Yahweh" or "Jehovah." The name was deliberately replaced thousands of times... question is why?

and that the Jews refused to actually verbalize out loud the name of God for fear of inadvertently mispronouncing it, the actual pronounciation of the divine name became lost.

Let's see... Jesus said "...Let your name be sanctified on earth as it is in heaven..." Who, I wonder, would want to take away our general knowledge of Gods name? Who opposes God that would want God's "name" not to be "sanctified?" Hrmm.....

As for your scriptures you cited... I really didn't see the relevance. Most pointed out Jesus sitting "At the right hand" of his Father... Again.. he can't do this in human form, so it must be something he does AFTER going back to heaven, therefore... even when he's in his divine form, he is still at God's Right hand (still a subservient...lesser... position, showing that "the father is greater than I" still applies when he's in heaven.)


Back to Simonline.... as of your last post you're still saying that they're seperate persons... with seperate bodies/minds/souls/roles.... in what way are they the same then? other than "In the mystical way that no one can understand or explain, and is never even hinted at in the bible"
 
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The Gregorian said:
"somehow the same, yet somehow different" isn't a very good discription... the water/ice/steam illustration is much more clear.

So let me understand: You believe that The father IS the son when he's playing certain rolls, then stops being the son and becomes the holy spirit, then stops being the holy spirit to become the father again, correct? Sort of just three different "secret identities" of God.... i.e. Clark kent IS superman... but the two identities are used in different rolls?

What you have just described (including the woefully inadequate illustration of H2O as ice, water and steam) is 'Modalism' (the ancient heresy of Sabellianism) and not the Christian doctrine of the Trinity but I don't think that's what Hiker believes at all? I think you'll find he believes the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity (even if he isn't the world's best at articulating it)?

The Gregorian said:
That's OK. Like [Simon and I] said... although we disagree with each other, we're both here to learn and teach. We figure... all we can do is provide our views, and the evidence we use to support them, hopefully pointing out something that other people may not have thought of before. If we're right, they'll agree, if they're wrong, they'll understand where we're coming from and be able to help us to learn what's "right".

If there was no such thing as absolute Truth then everyone's opinion would be equally as valid and equally as 'correct' and simply a matter of personal preference as to, in this case, what one would like to believe concerning the Nature of God, but the fact is, there is such a thing as absolute Truth (a fact from which we cannot ultimately escape) and because of that everyones' varied opinions concerning the Nature of God are neither equally 'correct' nor equally valid. The fact is, all that we know about God is what God himself has deigned to reveal to us through his Word, spoken, written and living. God has revealed himself as Trinitarian in Nature (since this is the only understanding/definition that adequately takes into account and encapsulates everything that the Bible declares (and not just the theological presuppositional 'proof-texts' that seem to support a particular theological position or stance) about the unique Nature of God as Infinite Divine Creator. Therefore, the Truth is that definition which corresponds to the reality that is the Divine revelation of the Nature of God and not with the vain imaginings of human reason and speculations.

The Gregorian said:
That having been said... everything is simple. Look at every design God's made... if you stop looking so close, there's a simple answer for everything. There is nothing in nature that "is the same but yet some how different in the glory of the oneness of ... blah blah blah" Everything is "one thing" or "the other" or "a variant of the two" We are in God's image, correct? Why can't we even IMAGINE something like the trinity? Isn't that something God would... kinda want us... to ... in some way understand? If he is one with Jesus, but seperate, yet one in [and?] the same, in a different form, but the same personality, in the same body, but at different times... etc. etc. etc.... Why would he simply say "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved" and why would his Son say that it was his Father who sent him. That he is a servant of his father, and that soon he would go back to his Father, and his God. (yes, Jesus called the Father "[his] God."

You really haven't got a clue about the Trinity (as is blatantly obvious from the completely confused garbble that you have spouted here). There is nothing in all [created] nature that is anything like the [uncreated] Infinite, Eternal Creator because the [uncreated] Infinite Eternal Creator is not, by definition, a finite [created] creature.

You are starting from what you know (the Creation in general and human beings in particular) and basing your understanding of the Infinite Eternal Creator on that extremely limited (and woefully inadequate) knowledge. You are, in effect, working backwards.

What you should be doing is starting with God's revelation of himself and based on that (and not what he has created), scaling down to human beings as finite types or representations of God (i.e. creatures made in the image of God). Only then will you begin to grasp the correct perspective.

As I recall that complete drivell about '...in the glory of the oneness that is ...blah, blah, blah!' has absolutely nothing to do with the Biblical Trinity and were in fact your words which I subsequently exposed and repudiated for the drivell that it was.

As I have already said (repeatedly) God is unlike anything he has created. Whilst humans are created in the image of God and are therefore like God in some respects in other respects they are totally unlike God. God is Infinite in every respect. He is Eternal, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Immutable (unchanging). No creature (including the human nature of the Messiah) has the capacity to be even one of those attributes let alone all of them together. Compared with the rest of the Creation God is in a league of His own, in a class of One. He is different even in ways that are way beyond our comprehension. The only way that we as finite creatures can possibly know absolutely anything about God is by God himself deigning to reveal himself to us.

The Trinity, by definition, cannot be 'imagined', especially by sinful human beings, it has to be discerned through Divine revelation (1Cor.2:6-16). Only having been spiritually discerned can the Trinity be truely understood.

Based on your posts it is clear that you simply cannot grasp the Biblical concept of the Trinity (since it clearly has not [yet?] been revealed to you) and thus you're 'trapped' in the heretical concept of Modalism [a.k.a. Sabellianism] and trying to refute that understanding, believeing it to be the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity. I should advise you that you are very much mistaken.

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The Gregorian said:
Exactly the point I was going to make if you accepted that explaination.

No it wasn't because prior to my stating that the H2O 'illustration' is actually heretical you (like most of the Christians who use it) weren't aware of the fact that it is heretical. Furthermore, since you can't get your head around the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity, how on earth would you be able to recognise an aberation of it?



The Gregorian said:
First, I just want to point out the word you used: Immutable... He's Immutable, yet one yet individual yet a communal existance of three?

That is correct. God is ONE BEING who is also Three [Individual] Persons ('within' that ONE BEING). As such God, by Nature, is Immutable, absolutely and utterly incapable of change (Mal.3:6; Heb.13:8). God can change the way he operates in relation to, or acts in response to, His Creation, but He cannot change who or what He is. Neither can he change the number of Persons 'within' His One Being or their interpersonal relationship with each other. Some people believe that God is essentially Unitarian (One Being/One Person) but that He became 'Trinitarian' for the purpose of 'redeeming' a fallen Creation and will eventually 'revert back' to being Unitarian at the end of the age when all has been 'redeemed'. This is also heretical since it is based upon the erroneous premise that God is not Immutable. The fact that God IS Immutable means that God would still be Trinitarian in Nature even if nothing but God ever existed.

The Gregorian said:
This is what always confused me. They aren't physically joined (enter baptism illustration when Jesus was in one place, the holy spirit was in another place, and the Father was talking from heaven, i.e. in another place)... and as you put it they are three distinct persons with individual... 'attitudes' for lack of a better word. They obviously have seperate 'minds' (refer to Matthew 24:36) therefore the Father knows things that the Son doesn't...so they aren't bound to each other's souls...If they have separate minds/bodies/AND souls and one is greater than the other...how are they one "Being"?

Attributes would be a better word. I wondered how long it would be before you 'played' the 'Matt.24:36' 'trump card'. Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you but it's a red herring.

See my next three posts:

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What did Christ sacrifice in becoming man?



In Philippians 2:5-11 Paul refers to Christ’s sacrificing the form of God and taking upon Himself the form of a servant, being “found in fashion as a man” and in that form humbling Himself and becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, to accomplish our Redemption, as an example to Christians to put the interests of others before their own, and not to be deterred by the cost.

The need for this exhortation is to be seen in 2:20 where Paul says ”For I have no man like minded (with Timothy, v.19) who will naturally care for your state. For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ’s.”

He says: Christ did not think being equal with God in retaining the form of God the thing of greatest importance to Him but sacrificed it to take on Him the form of a servant, in order to meet our needs as sinners, putting our interest first, sacrificing His own to accomplish our Redemption.

The A.V. (KJV) translates the Greek word ekenosen as “made Himself of no reputation”, but the modern translations render it “emptied Himself”. D. Bennets says:


“Emptied Himself” is a mistranslation. At the time of writing the New Testament the word kenoo no longer stressed it’s etymological meaning, but denoted humiliation generally, and the A.V. “Made Himself of no reputation” is a more scholarly rendering from that period than “emptied Himself”.


In their mistaken zeal to safeguard the Deity of Christ, His co-equality with the Father, many evangelicals, followed by the N.I.V. have not translated the Greek word morphe, “form” at all, but have translated a totally different word which they have substituted for morphe – the word phusis, meaning nature. One evangelical translated the text:


Who, possessing the essential nature of God, did not regard equality with God something to be graspingly retained, but emptied Himself by taking the nature of a bondservant, becoming in the likeness of men.


Yet he strenuously denied that it was of His Deity that Christ emptied Himself, as do all other Evangelicals who substitute “nature” for “form”.


But since the text speaks of the sacrifice made by the Son of God in becoming incarnate, their translation necessarily involves the sacrifice of “the very nature” of God, much to the delight of the rationalists who accept this translation themselves, and more logically draw from it that Divine incarnation involved the sacrifice of Deity.


“Nature” however, is not a synonym for “form” but very different as everything we see around us shows. How very many different forms may a piece of wood take? Into how many different forms may clay, or glass, or iron, or any other substance be shaped? What is the form of clouds? “Form” is the mode in which the nature of a thing manifests itself, and in no way essential to nature; changing form does not affect nature, so that the sacrifice of the “form” of God, His mode of manifestation, in no way involved sacrifice of His nature.


J.B.Phillips accepts the translation “being in the very nature of God”, and Gilbert Kirby, a former principle of the LondonBibleCollege commends it in his pamphlet on “Jehovah’s Witnesses”.


Understand the distinction between form and nature, and we see that the text says nothing of Christ sacrificing the nature of God in taking upon Himself the form of a man. So it lends no support to the modernist theory of Christ sacrificing His Deity or Divine attributes, in becoming incarnate, but only the form in which the invisible spiritual glory of Divine holiness manifested itself in visible glory.


It cannot be disputed that what the Son of God sacrificed in becoming incarnate was what the text says He shared with the Father. So to substitute nature for form in the text delights modernists because they have the support of the evangelicals in their mistranslation, that Christ sacrificed His Deity or Divine attributes in becoming incarnate. Evangelicals deny that He did sacrifice His Deity, but cannot say in this case, consistent with the text, exactly what He did sacrifice.


The New American Standard Bible gives form and so is a true translation. “Nature” is not a translation but a false substitution due to putting interpretation before translation.


A comparison of Daniel 7:9 with Revelation 1:13,14 shows the Father and Son both manifested the inner spiritual glory of the Divine nature in the same outward visible symbolic form of Man (see Ezek 1:26)


I kept looking, Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was white like snow, And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, It’s wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing…I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, Glory, and a Kingdom, That all the peoples nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away; And His Kingdom is one which shall never be destroyed (Dan. 7:9-14).


John thus describes the appearance to him on Patmos of the glorified Christ:


And I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; And in the middle of the lampstands one like a Son of Man, clothed in a robe reaching to His feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle.


And His head and His hair were white like wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been caused to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters (Rev. 1:12-15).


The Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove to John the Baptist (Matt 3:16).


Obviously it was necessary that the eternal Son of God should lay aside the form here described in order to become incarnate in our humanity. This form He shared with the Father in His form of manifestation to Daniel. The adopted mode of manifestation was like the royal robes of a king. These are not necessary to his being King, since he is not less King when He puts them off. But He always puts them on for public appearances, their grandeur symbolizing the exalted dignity of His Person as King.


In “taking the form of a servant and being found in fashion as a Man”, only a few realized Who He was through His Self-revelation (Jn 1:14). He was believed to be only a man, son of Joseph, a carpenter, and Mary his wife, and His Divine claims lead to His being charged with blasphemy. The Carol says “veiled in flesh the Godhead see; Hail the incarnate Deity.”


In Jn 17:5 we read of Christ, having spoken of having finished the work the Father had given Him to do, praying: “And now, O Father, Glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.”


Following His ascension He received back the glory of “the form of God” He laid aside in order to undertake the work of our salvation. Paul beheld it on the Damascus Road (Acts 9:3,4); John, as noted above, beheld it on Patmos. All the world will behold it at His second coming when “He shall come in the Glory of the Father and all the holy ones with Him (Matt 25:31). Peter, James, and John were given a preview of it on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt 16:27 – 17:1-3).


There were different forms of the Kenotic theory, “which sought to explain what it was that the Son of God emptied Himself of in order to become incarnate in our humanity”. Unbelievers always like to appeal to verses of Scripture to justify their theories, if possible, and no evangelical can be a greater “verbal inspirationist” than these theorists when Scripture seems to justify their theories.


Thus Christ’s words in Mark 13:32 in which He said none, not even “the Son”, knew the day and hour of His second Coming, were appealed to as demanding the theories which asserted either that He had sacrificed His attributes of Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence, or His Divine nature in it’s entirety, “the Word literally being made flesh” (Jn. 1:14) This latter view was held by Count Zinzendorf, the founder of the Moravian mission.


This theory was later to be advocated by the German theologian Gess. But first of all, we shall briefly note the theory of Thomasius, another German theologian of the rationalist school, who in 1865 set forth the doctrine that while retaining His essential Deity, the Divine nature, in becoming incarnate it was necessary that the Son of God should lay aside His attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence – attributes which he termed “relative”. Thomasius claimed Christ retained His holiness, love, justice, which he termed “immanent attributes” as essential to the Being of God. Thus according to His theory, Christ possessed both Divine and Human natures in all their essentials.


According to this theological classification, the immanent or absolute attributes of God as they are called, are properties of the Divine Essence considered by itself. They are involved in God’s relationship within Himself, and belong to His nature independently of His relationship to the Universe and His creatures. Self-existence, unity, intelligence, life, personality are attributes which belong to this category. His relative attributes relate to His outward manifestation of His Being, for example in relation to time His Eternity; to space, His Immensity; to creation, His omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omniscience; to moral beings, His Truthfulness Goodness, Justice, Love.


Yet this classification is very far from perfect, for Love and Truth are characteristic of the relations of each Person of the Trinity to each other, and Omniscience is essential to their perfect knowledge of each other as Infinite. Omniscience, then, is an immanent attribute; it belongs to God independently of His relation to creation.


If, therefore, according to this classification the immanent attributes of God were not laid aside in the Son of God becoming incarnate, and omniscience is one of them, He possessed omniscience as incarnate. And if His incarnation did not necessitate divestiture by the Son of God of this attribute because an “immanent attribute”, it cannot be maintained that, as Divine, He was ignorant concerning anything in the days of His flesh.


Further, Omnipotence had also to be an immanent attribute of God before He could create the universe. It is not a mere relation to an already existing universe.


God would have been omnipotent had He never created the universe and was omnipresent in relation to space which creation occupied. The fact is, as already stated, that all the relative attributes of God are also immanent. They had to exist before they could be manifested. Had He not created moral beings who as sinful would need His mercy or justice, these attributes would have belonged to His essential Being as Love, the sum total of attributes constituting the nature of everything, and without which it would not be that Nature. In other words: God’s attributes are Himself revealed.


The theory supposes that during the period of our Lord’s earthly life the Trinity consisted of two infinite Beings, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, the Father and the Holy Spirit, and one finite Being, the Son, who, as self-divested of these attributes (which He claimed on earth to possess), was unable to enjoy fellowship with them on equal terms, or sustain the universe (Heb. 1:3; Col. 1:16,17).


In England Dr. Peake was a representative of the Thomasius’ theory. He said:


We confess that God is All-powerful, All-wise, but it was not in these qualities that the essence of His Divinity resides, but in those which are moral and spiritual. He is perfect in holiness and love. If we are seeking a definition of God, we must place it at the centre of those qualities which could not be possessed by that which in essence was undivine, and which could not be surrendered without loss of the necessary quality of Deity….


I urge, then, that the less essential qualities may be surrendered in order that the Divine qualities may receive enhancement. If they are sacrificed that love may gain a larger scope and a deeper satisfaction, we must recognise in that no loss of divinity, but rather the winning by Godhead of yet fuller and more congenial expression. And thus Jesus, as He lived on earth, a weak and mortal man, sharing our ignorance, and compassed with our infirmity was not less God, but more God because that love which made Him God had risen to the most God-like surrender.


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The Impossibility of the Theory



The theory is based on the supposed separability of attributes from nature, substance, when they cannot be separated because they make nature what it is. Take away hardness from a stone, and opaqueness, and it is no longer a stone. Take away absorbency from a sponge and it is no longer a sponge; take away conscience from a man and he is no longer a man.


Since Thomasius maintained that Jesus was still Divine when he was no longer omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent, these attributes, he believed, are not necessary to the Being of God, yet without them no being could be God.


Omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence have no independent existence; they are attributes which alone distinguish the moral attributes of God from those of His moral creatures. They are inseparable from infinite being; without them the greatest of beings is finite, and a finite Christ could not, by His substitutionary suffering reveal infinite love, could not be God’s sacrifice; it could not have infinite merit as a propitiation for the sin of the world.



The theory that omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are not essential to the Being of God is ludicrous in the extreme for they are all necessary to our trust in Him. A God limited by lack of power, lack of knowledge, and not able to be wherever he is needed is a creation of perverted rationalist imagination. “Immutability” is inseparable from the connotation “God”, as orthodox Christian theologians have always maintained. The Son of God, as equal partaker with the Father and the Holy Spirit, of the one Divine life, could not sacrifice anything essential to the nature of God anymore than could the Father or Holy Spirit, and of necessity, God could not possess anything not essential to His being. The idea of non- essentials in the Being of God is the grossest irrationality.



On earth Christ manifested His possession of all these attributes. His omniscience was shown not only by claiming a knowledge of the Father equal to that of His Father’s knowledge of Him (Jn. 10:15; Matt 11:27), but also when He revealed His knowledge of the different way the people of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom would have reacted to His many mighty works, had He done in their cities what He had performed in Chorazin, Bethsaida, and

Capernaum (Matt. 11:2-24). Another example is the matter of the tribute money (Matt. 17:24-27). He revealed His omnipresence in claiming to be in heaven even while on earth (Jn. 3:13). His omnipotence was revealed in stilling the storm on Galilee’s sea; in feeding the multitudes with a food supply that could only meet the need of one, in the case of the 5,000 (Jn. 6:1-14) and feeding 4,000 shortly afterwards with seven loaves and few little fishes (Matt. 15:32-38); and His raising the dead to prove His right to forgive sins, only possible to God even as incarnate.



Only sheer unbelief makes possible all theories which deny that Christ was Deity incarnate in full possession of every Divine attribute.



The theory of Thomasius was accepted by the great majority of British theologians, as well as those of all the other countries of Christendom, because it seemed to explain, as we have said, Christ’s statement in Mark 13:32 in which He says that the Son did not know the day or the hour of His second coming. It is asserted, falsely, that whenever Christ called Himself “the Son” it was always His Divine Sonship to which He referred. Matthew 11:27 is quoted in support of this statement. But this same Scripture refutes their theory completely by asserting His omniscience, for it reads: “All things are delivered unto me of my Father; no man knoweth the Son but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.” In Jn. 10:15 we read: “As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father.” As the Father’s knowledge of the Son is infinite, even so the Son’s knowledge of the Father is infinite. Hence, as Divine, He could not have known less than the Father concerning the day of His second coming. Only as man could he have said this.



It is the greatest importance to the right understanding of the claims of Christ that we note that just as we ourselves use first personal pronouns with reference only to our physical nature, as when we say, “I am hungry”, “I am thirsty” and so on, sometimes to our psychical nature, as when we refer to our love of music, art and so on, and sometimes to our spiritual nature in speaking of love for God and the things of God, so also Christ in using first personal pronouns sometimes spoke with reference to His humanity only, sometimes with reference to His Deity only, and sometimes with reference to Himself as uniting Deity and humanity within Himself.



He spoke with reference to His humanity only when he said: “I thirst”; “My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”; “Now is my soul exceedingly sorrowful even unto death.” He referred to His Deity only when He said: “Before Abraham was I Am.”; “As the Father knoweth me even so I know the Father”; “I and my Father are one”; “Father glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee before the world was.”, and in all other references to His coming into this world. He referred to Himself as uniting Deity and humanity in His one person as the Christ when He said: “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest”; “He that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst .”



So also He used the title “the Son of Man” with these three different references. He used the title with exclusive reference to His Divine Sonship when He said: “the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins”; “the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day”; “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity” (Mk. 2:10; Matt. 12:8; 13:41; see also Matt. 16:27). He used the title with exclusive reference to His human sonship when He said: “The Son of man hath not where to lay his head”; “the Son of man came eating and drinking and they say, behold a man gluttonous and a winebibber” (Matt. 8:20; 11:19). He used the title with reference to Himself as uniting both Divine and human Sonship in His one Person in saying: “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and will recompense every man according to his deeds” (Matt. 16:27), because God has said He will not give His glory to another (Isa. 42:8).



He does the same in Matt. 25:31, where He says: “When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne”, for it will be as MAN that Christ sits on this throne as the promised Son of David (Lk. 1:31; Isa. 9:6,7; !!:1-9; 26:5; Jer. 23:5; 33:14-17). He distinguishes His throne as MAN from the throne of the Father, which is His also as Divine (Ps. 45:6). Revelation 3:21 reads “To him that overcometh I will grant to him the right to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne” (Rev 3:21).



The fact that Christ some times used personal pronouns and the title “the Son of Man” with exclusive reference to His Divine Sonship, sometimes with exclusive reference to His human Sonship, and sometimes with reference to both, ought to have furnished the clue to His reference in using the title “the Son” in Mark 13:32, especially in the light of very many other Scriptures in which He revealed His omnipotence, omniscience and claimed omnipresence. He uses the title “the Son” also with exclusive reference to His Deity; with reference to Himself as uniting both Divine and human Sonships in Himself; and also with exclusive reference to His human Sonship. He used this title with reference to His Deity, as we have seen, in saying no one knows the Son but the Father , and no one knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son will reveal Him; He used the title with reference to both His Divine and human Sonships, since both were equally involved in procuring our salvation, when He said, “It is the will of Him that sent me , that everyone which seeth the Son and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise Him up at the last day” (Jn. 6:40). But He used the title with exclusive reference to the human side of His Saving Work, when He said, “Whosoever committeth sin (as a principle of daily living as all the unregenerate do), is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (8:34,36).

For freedom from the dominion of sin was not procured for us by the Divine, substitutionary side of His Saving work, which is only related to delivering us from the penalty of sin, but by it’s human side, in procuring for us the reward of His perfect obedience to the Law of Love, justifying righteousness, and which secured to us the gift of Eternal life, imparted in the new birth, and which alone makes possible salvation from the power of sin.



So we see how unscriptural this Kenotic theory is which says that whenever Christ uses the title “the Son” He refers exclusively to His Divine Sonship, and finding He uses it in Mark 13:32 , bases on the supposition that He was referring to His Divine Sonship the theory that it teaches us that He divested Himself of the attributes of Omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence in becoming incarnate. In Jn. 8:36 He uses the title indisputably, according to the demands of God’s Law which He said that He had come to fulfil for us (Matt. 5:17), of His Saving Work on it’s human side only.



This Kenotic theory did not escape criticism. Criticising the theory of Bishop Gore, Dr. Rashdall said:



According to Bishop Gore, the Word up to the moment of the Incarnation knew everything – all history, all modern science, all the undiscovered science that there is to know, the whole future course of history so far as it is known to the Father, but from the moment of the Incarnation He knew all this no more for thirty three years. Now it is surely a difficult doctrine to maintain that such a colossal loss of memory, such a profound change of intellectual outlook, such a complete breach of continuity in the consciousness of the Son, was consistent with what we commonly call personal identity….Certainly it is ridiculous to say that it is consistent with the Word being unchanged.



Dr. Norman Pittenger said of the Kenotic theory as stated by Bishop Gore:


There are two serious defects in such a position. In the first place it supposes some sort of fancied transaction in the heavenly places by which the Son divested Himself of so called the “Metaphysical attributes” of Deity, while retaining, for His incarnate life, the Moral attributes. And this leads to the second defect. It is doubtful whether or not a Deity which is thus divided and only one half of which is, so to say, incarnate, can really be said to be Deity at all. In order to solve the genuine problem of the limitation found in the humanity of our Lord, the advocates of the theory create a new set of problems which are actually more serious than the ones that they have set out to solve. The theory will not serve; and it is, I believe, increasingly recognised by more recent and responsible theologians.

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Gess’ Kenotic Theory


Another German rationalist theologian Gess of Tubingen, published his Kenotic theory in his Die Lehere von der Person of Christ (1856) rejected the Kenotic theory of Thomasius on the ground that to believe in Christ as uniting Divine and human nature in His one person destroyed the unity of His Person. He believed that the unity of His Person must be mathematical – a theory which lead to the doctrine of the impersonal humanity of Christ, preserved even in Reformed theology, and which is the foundation doctrine of Unitarianism in relation to the doctrine of God. Gess said:


The Father had given the Son to have life in Himself, but the inflow of this Divine life ceased in His becoming incarnate, the Divine being changed into humanity, and subject to all human experiences except yielding to temptation.


Dr. H.R.Mackintosh of Edinburgh accepted Gess’ theory which he set forth in his book The Person of Christ. He says:


Two certainties are shared in common by all the New Testament writers. First that the life and consciousness of Jesus was in form completely human; second that this historic life, apprehended as instinctive with the powers of Redemption, is one with the life of God Himself. The Jesus of the synoptists shares in the common beliefs of the time…It has gradually become clear that to invest His Words with legal authority in matters of Biblical criticism and history is wholly misleading and irrelevant. The realm of scientific knowledge is one in which He became “Like unto His brethren”. Incontrovertibly at different times He exhibits a wholly abnormal penetration, a perception of men’s thoughts which far outstrips the insight of even the prophets. But we cannot speak of His omniscience except as we desert sources. “Of that day or hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, nor yet the Son, but the Father – a declaration of ignorance which, it is suggestive to note, is not insisted on after the resurrection. Along with this goes the fact that He makes enquiries and manifests surprise.


Although Count von Zinzendorf’s theory of Kenosis was that of Gess, he differed from Gess, in that he held it as being necessitated by love, not that two natures, Deity and humanity, cannot exist in one person, and that therefore Christ had to sacrifice Deity to become incarnate. Bruce in The Humiliation of Christ, gives a summary of Zinzendorf’s theory:


The celebrated founder of the Moravian brotherhood went to great lengths in the assertion of Christ’s likeness to His brethren. Living in a time when men were ashamed of the humiliation of Christ, and gave prominence only to what was rational and intelligible, and in a worldly sense respectable, in Christianity, he deemed it his vocation to glory in Christ’s passion, and to assert with all possible emphasis the Incarnation as a lowering of Himself in love to the level of humanity. This lowering of Himself took place to such an extent , that Bengel, with every desire to give an impartial account of his doctrinal system, spoke of him as a new Unitarian, who, while differing widely from other Unitarians in assigning to the Son not only a place in the Trinity, but a monopoly of Divine functions, creation, Redemption and sanctification, came by so much the nearer to them on the other side (as incarnate) as one journeys toward the east, going as far as he can, at length comes round to the west. Jesus, according to Zinzendorf, was in all matters to be considered a simple man; and all our comfort is to be derived from His humanity, viewed not only as like us in it’s weakness, but as characterised by a maximum of weakness, so that the most miserable creature can think of Christ as weaker than himself. The Son of God incarnate thought of Himself as a man; If the thought “I am God” entered into His mind it was only in transitu, as a man of thirty years may remember in a dream, something he had said or done as a child of two or three years. Thus far did He carry on the business of self-emptying: and in carrying it so far, He but glorified His love. For the greatest thing in the Saviour was not His Godhead or His majesty; or His miracles but His becoming freely so little. Thus thought the Saviour before he came in the flesh. He esteemed it a favour conferred on Him by His Father to be permitted to become a man, that He might die for a sinful world. Yea, He reckoned it an additional favour that, in order to become a man it was necessary that He should go out of the Godhead, and at least for an hour, for a moment, know what it was to be God-forsaken.


Criticising the more extreme Kenotic theory of MacKintosh which denied the two natures in Christ, Dr. D.M.Baillie, in God was in Christ, said:


Instead of giving us a doctrine of the Incarnation in which Jesus Christ is both God and man, the Kenotic theory appears to me to give a story of temporary theophany, in which He who formerly was God changed Himself temporarily into a man, or exchanged His Divinity for humanity. This is true even if the Kenoticist maintains the anhypostasia in the sense of impersonal humanity. For though the Son of God thus keeps His personal identity in becoming the subject of the human attributes which He assumes, He has divested Himself of the distinctly Divine attributes; which would imply, if language means anything, that in becoming human He had ceased to be Divine. If, however, the Kenoticist gives up the idea of the anhypostasia, impersonal humanity and regards Jesus as a man, a human person (as do some holders of the Kenotic theory, H.R.Mackintosh for example), then the situation becomes still stranger. The Kenoticist would then be involved in saying that He who before the Incarnation had been a Divine Being now turned into a man, with human instead of Divine attributes for a time. He had been God but now he was a man. If taken in all it’s implications, that seems more like a pagan story of metamorphosis than like the Christian doctrine of Incarnation, which has always found in the life of Jesus on earth God and man in simultaneous union – the Godhead “veiled in flesh” but not changed into humanity. Surely the relation between the Divine and the human in the Incarnation is a deeper mystery than this.


The difficulties of the Kenotic theory become greater still when we go on to ask: “Was the kenosis merely temporary, confined to the period of the Incarnation of the Son of God, the days of His flesh on earth?” The holders of the theory would logically have to answer: Yes. The presupposition of the theory is that the distinctive Divine attributes (of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence etc.) and the distinctive human attributes (of finitude) cannot be united simultaneously in one life: that is why the Incarnation is explained as a kenosis . Therefore when the days of His flesh came to an end, Christ resumes His Divine attributes, and His kenosis, His humanity comes to an end. His human life is left behind when He ascends to the right hand of the Father. Thus on the Kenotic theory in that specified sense (which is what we are concerned with) He is God and Man, not simultaneously in a hypostatic union, but successively – first Divine, then human, then Divine again. But if that is really what the theory amounts to – and I do not see how it can be otherwise interpreted – it seems to me to leave no room at all for the traditional catholic doctrine of the permanence of the manhood of Christ, “Who being the eternal Son of God , became man, and so was, and continueth to be, God and man in two distinct natures, and one person, forever.” But if we state the problem in such terms at all, surely we cannot deny the doctrine altogether and maintain that the human nature of Christ ended when the days of His flesh ended. That would make nonsense of the Incarnation, and indeed would indicate that the theorist did not regard Jesus Christ as a real man at all.


Quoted in entirety from “Christ or Mohammed – The Bible or the Koran?” by F.S.Copleston. Published by Islam’s Challenge Copyright 1989.

Food for thought?

So, you see, There is no conflict between the Father and the Son, even whilst the Son was incarnate here on Earth.

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Diety has the power to do anything it wishes. Now, it could be argued that GOD can not sin and that might be considered by some to be a limitation. Be that as it may, I see no reason that Christ, who has always existed for all eternity past along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, could not assume the role of a human to do what the GODHEAD knew before the creation of the universe would be necessary to accomplish.
 
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The Gregorian said:
1: These two disagree... The bible says: "there is...one God" like you said. But it specifies that one God as "the Father" then it seperates Jesus as being Lord... but NOT God.

When are you going to start reading the Scriptures in their proper context (namely, the whole of the rest of the Scriptures and not just a few isolated verses) so that you will get the correct understanding?

The verse says that there is ONE God and that the Father is God, BUT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT ONLY THE FATHER IS GOD - YOU ARE READING THAT INTO THIS PASSAGE BECAUSE THAT IS YOUR THEOLOGICAL PRESUPPOSITION. We know from other parts of the Scriptures (Jn.1:1; 10:30-33 for example) that God is not limited to the One Person of the Father. Just because every single verse in the Bible that makes reference to God does not happen to include a full theological explanation of the Trinity does not mean that the Trinity is not Biblical. As I keep saying (but people keep ignoring me) the Trinity is the doctrine formulated by the early church to encapsulate ALL (not just isolated 'proof-texts') that the Bible declares concerning the Nature of God. We cannot ignore those parts of the Scriptures that do not 'fit' with our theological presuppositions. If the Judeo-Christian Scriptures are the Word of God (2Tim.3:16-17; Heb.4:12-13) and there is conflict between what the Scriptures teach and what we 'believe', guess which one has to change?!

The Gregorian said:
If it's not logical, and there's more evidence in the Bible saying it's not true than it is true...then it's illogical to think that it is true? Jesus specifically said 'I am God's SON' not 'I am God' this is a simple statement. He is God's Son...a divine being, sent to Earth by his Father...but not actually his father...he didn't say 'I'm going back to heaven to become God' he said I am going back to sit at the right hand of my father.' To sit at someone's right hand is a subservient position. It is NOT equal. It's the place of highest respect (second to the person who's right hand you're sitting at) but it is NOT a place of equality.

No where in the Scriptures does the Messiah declare 'I am God's Son' (and I defy you to prove me wrong on this point?!) What you obviously don't know is that the first century Jews did not come from Lancashire.

The people of Lancashire (in north west England) from where I come (and where I am still living) are noted throughout the UK for 'calling a spade a spade'. In other words we use plain language to say exactly what we mean so that people are left in absolutely no doubt about what we've said and, more importantly, what we've meant...'We say what we mean and we mean what we say!'.

The society of first century Israel was the exact opposite of that of present day Lanacshire. The Jews of that time (and even today) would rarely, if ever, make a direct statement in the way that Lancashire people do. The first century Jews were much more subtle than that and would always make a statement in a round-about way, by implication, by inference, but rarely, if ever, directly. So, when the Messiah says 'I and my Father are One' (Jn.10:30) he is actually saying "I am also God (not 'a god' but THE God). He is declaring himself to be the same Being, the same essence as that of his Father (i.e. God in Heaven). This is clear from the reaction of those Jews who heard him and knew exactly what he was saying (which is why the Scriptures record that they picked up stones to try and stone him to death for blasphemy (vv.31-33).

When charged under oath by the High Priest to declare whether or not he was the Messiah, the Son of God (Mk.14:61) Jesus declared 'I AM' (v.62). Notice, he didn't say, 'I am the Son of God' as we might have said had we been the Messiah. This is because the Messiah was very subtly answering the high priest on two levels. He was answering the High Priest's question in the affirmative (which was the plain and obvious answer) but by saying simply 'I AM' [the English translation of the name of God - YHWH) he was using a subtle play on words to declare that He was Divine, He was God, not 'a god' but THE God (cf. Jn.1:1; Jn.10:30-33). This was what produced the reaction of the High Priest in tearing his vestments and declaring that the Messiah was guilty of blasphemy. THese are just two examples of the Messiah declaring that he is God without actually declaring (in a way that we would understand as being a direct declaration) that he is God. The Messiah is NOT A Divine Being, He (along with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is THE Divine Being since there can be only ONE Infinite and Eternal Divine Being.

When the Messiah declared that he would be seated at the right hand of God he was declaring that not just as God (as which he is absolutely equal (Jn.1:1; 10:30-33)) but also as a human being (as which he is definitely not equal (Jn.14:28)).

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The Gregorian said:
exactly why it's important whether Jesus is equal to God or not. Idolatry is the most disrespectful act there is. Jesus repeatedly said he was here to teach people of his father (not himself) as in Rev.1:6

The Messiah is not 'equal to God', he IS God. The Messiah is the eternally begotten Son/Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity. There is only One Divine Being. There can be only One Divine Being. Everything else is a finite creature. The eternally begotten Son/Word of God IS NOT a finite creature in any way shape or form (Jn.1:1; 10:30-33). To worship the eternally begotten Son/Word of God is to worship YHWH just as to worship the Father and or the Holy Spirit is to worship YHWH since they are all one and the same Eternal Divine Being.

The Messiah (as both the eternal Divine Creator and a finite human creature) always pointed people toward God in Heaven (as pure (uncreated) Infinite Divine Creator) focused in (but not limited to) the Person of the Father.

God, in the Messiah, wants people to focus on that which is purely Divine as the object of their worship, rather than on that which is either a creature or a combination of Divine Creator/human creature (namely, the Messiah). In other words, we are to worship the Trinitarian God (Father Son and Holy Spirit) in Heaven, rather than the Messianic incarnation.

The Gregorian said:
To call Jesus God is to make God's Son an idol against the Father. What sort of evil serpent would try to pit the Father against the Son (pun intended)?

Nothing could be further from the Truth. The Bible clearly states that the Son/Word of God is God (Jn.1:1; 10:30-33), i.e. one and the same Being as the Father and the Holy Spirit. The eternally begotten Son/Word of God is not a created being with a definite begining, he is YHWH, the ONE God, If this is not the case (as you assert), then how could he possibly be the eternally begotten Son/Word of God who could declare 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Begining and the End' (Rev.1:8,11; 21:6; 22:13 KJV) since such statements could only possibly apply to the One Eternal Divine Being who is God?

The Gregorian said:
One being sharing the same nature consisting of three different persons in different forms, of different ranks, with different personality, including one personality that knows things that no-one else does (Matt.24:36) and to whom all other personalities are subservient? How is this 'one being'? What other definition of 'being' is there than a physical body/soul/mentality?

The Bible declares God to be One Being consisting of three separate and distinct Persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) all sharing the same Immutable essence or Nature. Between themselves there is no 'rank' or 'subordination'. Perfect Love has no need of such things (1Jn.4:8) - see the creed of St Athanasius. Such things exist for our benefit, not theirs. 'Rank' and 'subordination' are 'utilized' for the purpose of the redemption of the Creation. No one Person within the Godhead knows any more or less than the other two Persons since the One God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is Omniscient The Son's knowledge of the Father is as Infinite as the Father's knowledge of the Son (Matt.11:27; Jn.10:15).

If you cannot comprehend the concepts of 'Being' and 'Person' as having their roots in the Infinite Divine Creator rather than His finite creatures then you will never understand the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

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The Gregorian said:
Do you see the backwards logic? "Jesus is God because, Jesus is 'lord' and 'YHWH' is translated to 'lord' in most bibles, therefore Jesus must be YHWH." That just isn't true. YHWH isn't something that translates into "Lord" (which is what Jesus is). YHWH is God's NAME which translates into "Yahweh" or "Jehovah." The name was deliberately replaced thousands of times... question is why?

What 'backwards logic'?! There is no 'backwards logic' at all.

First of all, the only reason that Jesus (i.e. the Messiah) is LORD is because of what he achieved through his life, death and resurrection (Phil.2:5-11). Notice two things, firstly, verse 6 declares that the Messiah (as pre-incarnate, i.e. the eternally begotten Son/Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity) was 'in very Nature God' - i.e. was Divine, was God, even before the Incarnation and secondly, after having humbled himself and been obedient, even to death upon a cross, God exalted him 'far above all principalities and powers' and gave him the name that is above every name [What name might that be then? Well, what name is it that is above every other name?] that at the name of Jesus [that wasn't the name since the human Messiah already had that name!] every knee should bow and every tongue confess in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i.e. in the grave, the place where dead people go to await their resurrection) that Jesus Christ is LORD (i.e. YHWH) to the glory of God the Father. [Ever asked a J.W. why the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures has never bothered to correctly translate this use of LORD in Phil.2:11 like it likes to trumpet the fact that it has done throughout the rest of the Bible (except for a couple of other potentially embarrassing instances such as this one)?!]

What this passage is actually saying is that because of the profound work of the Messiah (who, as well as being God is also a man) God (the Father) is rewarding the Messiah for his faithfulness by incorporating HIS humanity into the Godhead, in other words the Father has chosen to incorporate the Messiah's human Nature into the Godhead, so it is as a human as well as Divine that Jesus Christ is YHWH, to the glory of God the Father. God has glorified both the Divine and human natures of the Messiah.



The Gregorian said:
Let's see... Jesus said "...Let your name be sanctified on earth as it is in heaven..." Who, I wonder, would want to take away our general knowledge of Gods name? Who opposes God that would want God's "name" not to be "sanctified?" Hrmm.....

I have absolutely no idea...care to enlighten us?

The Gregorian said:
As for your scriptures you cited... I really didn't see the relevance. Most pointed out Jesus sitting "At the right hand" of his Father... Again.. he can't do this in human form, so it must be something he does AFTER going back to heaven, therefore... even when he's in his divine form, he is still at God's Right hand (still a subservient...lesser... position, showing that "the father is greater than I" still applies when he's in heaven.)

Who says he can't sit at the right hand of the father whilst in human form? The Bible clearly teaches that, since the resurrection, the Messiah now exists as both Divine and human in a resurrection body and that he will continue to exist in this 'form' for ever whether walking on this Earth or seated at the right hand of his Father in Heaven. Where ever the Messiah is he will have his resurrection body, just as, after our resurrection, we will forever have our resurrection bodies. Since the resurrection, there will never be a point where the Messiah will be non-corporeal (have no body).


The Gregorian said:
Back to Simonline.... as of your last post you're still saying that they're seperate persons... with seperate bodies/minds/souls/roles.... in what way are they the same then? other than "In the mystical way that no one can understand or explain, and is never even hinted at in the bible"

Please do me a favour and actually read my posts occasionally. I have NEVER said that the three Persons of the Godhead have 'separate bodies and souls' since such teaching is Mormonism and I am definitely not a Mormon. Only the Messiah is body and soul since, of the three Persons of the Trinity, only the Messiah has a human nature. The other two Persons are pure Spirit (Jn.4:24).

I'm sorry but this is just a pointless exercise in futility. The Biblical doctrine of the Trinity is just completely beyond you because you refuse point blank to even consider the possibility that it might actually be the Truth (Matt.13:14-15). Instead you just force your theological presuppositions onto the Scriptures and then try and make the Scriptures 'support' your point of view by arbitrarily ignoring those passages which refute your beliefs. That is just blatantly deceitful and dishonest.

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LittleNipper said:
Diety has the power to do anything it wishes. Now, it could be argued that GOD can not sin and that might be considered by some to be a limitation. Be that as it may, I see no reason that Christ, who has always existed for all eternity past along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, could not assume the role of a human to do what the GODHEAD knew before the creation of the universe would be necessary to accomplish.

No. Deity does not have the power to do whatever it wishes. God is not an arbitrary tyrant. God can only do that which can be done (he can't make a four sided triangle or a square circle or fry ice for example) and that which is in accordance with his Perfect Righteous and Holy Nature. God can neither sin (against whom would God sin?!) nor be tempted.

The Messiah only came into existence at the Incarnation. The one who existed prior to the Incarnation was not the Christ (the Messiah) but the eternally begotten Son/Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity. The Messiah is the combination of the Divine Nature (from his Father) and the human nature (from his mother). Neither nature alone is the Messiah (Christ). Only together do both natures constitute the One Person who is the Messiah.

I think it would be better (and more theologically accurate) to say that the Messiah became human rather than that the Messiah 'assumed the role of a human' which implies that he had the appearance of being human whilst not actually being human (as was the case when God appeared to men during the Old Testament - i.e. theophanies). The Incarnation is not just another theophany.

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Simonline said:
No. Deity does not have the power to do whatever it wishes. God is not an arbitrary tyrant. God can only do that which can be done (he can't make a four sided triangle or a square circle or fry ice for example) and that which is in accordance with his Perfect Righteous and Holy Nature. God can neither sin (against whom would God sin?!) nor be tempted.

The Messiah only came into existence at the Incarnation. The one who existed prior to the Incarnation was not the Christ (the Messiah) but the eternally begotten Son/Word of God, the second Person of the Trinity. The Messiah is the combination of the Divine Nature (from his Father) and the human nature (from his mother). Neither nature alone is the Messiah (Christ). Only together do both natures constitute the One Person who is the Messiah.

I think it would be better (and more theologically accurate) to say that the Messiah became human rather than that the Messiah 'assumed the role of a human' which implies that he had the appearance of being human whilst not actually being human (as was the case when God appeared to men during the Old Testament - i.e. theophanies). The Incarnation is not just another theophany.

Simonline.

As long as you believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are together GOD (meaning one essence in three personages) then we are in agreement. Anything short of that is wrong. Jesus had a birth; however, HIS SPIRIT or SOUL always existed----unlike humans who souls have a conception (starting point). Jesus knew what HE was about from what the Scripture reveals by the time HE was 12 years old. Jesus was about HIS FATHER's work (and HE did not mean Joseph). Jesus was wise beyond HIS years. I am sure that at 12, Jesus seemed to the rabbis to have the knowledge of an ancient sage.... That is because Jesus still was God; however, God was now in the role of a creature as well as the CREATOR. "PEACE, BE STILL."
 
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LittleNipper said:
As long as you believe that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are together GOD (meaning one essence in three personages) then we are in agreement. Anything short of that is wrong. Jesus had a birth; however, HIS SPIRIT or SOUL always existed----unlike humans who souls have a conception (starting point). Jesus knew what HE was about from what the Scripture reveals by the time HE was 12 years old. Jesus was about HIS FATHER's work (and HE did not mean Joseph). Jesus was wise beyond HIS years. I am sure that at 12, Jesus seemed to the rabbis to have the knowledge of an ancient sage.... That is because Jesus still was God; however, God was now in the role of a creature as well as the CREATOR. "PEACE, BE STILL."

No. The Messiah has two separate and distinct natures (the hypostatic union) His Divine Nature (from his Father) is exactly the same Nature as the rest of God (i.e. the other two Persons of the Trinity - the Father and the Holy Spirit) and is in absolutely no way limited or constricted by the Incarnation. It is 100% Divine.

His other nature is human (from his mother) and as such is exactly the same as ours in every way [body, soul and spirit] except that it is not tainted by the sin of Adam. If this is not the case (as you assert) then the Messiah is not truely human but only 'a close approximation'. That is simply unacceptable (Heb.2:5-18 (esp. v.17)).

This is why the Messiah is the only Being in all existence who has two natures and therefore is both Infinite/Eternal Divine Creator and finite human creature simultaneously. Neither nature is compromised or overshadowed by the existence of the other within the ONE PERSON.

Also, there is only One Person of the Trinity who is the Messiah. The Father and the Holy Spirit are separate Persons to the Messiah.

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