Trinity question

[Simonline]

Well said, Tinker.

Absolute equality does not preclude positional subordination.

It does with reference to the Infinite Divine Essence. It is only with reference to God's modus operandi (the way in which God works or operates) that positional subordination can have any meaning within the Trinitarian Godhead. In other words, there is absolutely no subordination within the essential Nature of God Himself. Only with reference to the Creation is positional subordination within the Trinitarian Godhead necessary.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

wow... this thread is going completley different than another one I'm in.

first: yea, I can definitely accept that the Father and Son are the same type of being, that they work together... similar to a married couple (in some ways) but just not the "SAME" being as per some people:

Then you are not a Trinitarian and therefore not a Christian in the true orthodox sense of the word. Based on what you have said it would probably be more correct to define yourself as an Arian - one who believes that the Father and the Son are two separate and distinct beings having 'an extremely close working relationship' but not actually one and the same Being as held by orthodox [Trinitarian] Christianity.

[H]ow can there be only one God, the Father, yet Jesus is that, but he's not his own father, but he is God as liljon put it?

Firstly, God is One Being (Deut.6:4). Secondly, God is Three Persons within that One Being [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] and not just one Person ['the Father'] as is erroneously believed by those who deny the Trinity.

The Messiah is the one Being who is unique amongst all beings that exist (including God) in that he alone has two natures - an Infinite Divine Nature and a finite human nature - both of which have been combined into the ONE PERSON who is the Messiah. The Infinite Divine Nature of the Messiah is the second Person of the Trinity - the Eternally Begotten Son/Word of God, who is exactly the same in every respect as the other two Persons of the Trinity, the Father and the Holy Spirit. That being the case, the Messiah is entitled to be called Emmanuel - 'God with us'. If the Messiah is not exactly the same in every respect as the other two Persons of the Trinity, the Father and the Holy Spirit (as many so-called 'orthodox Christians' actually believe), then he is not entitled to be called Emmanuel - 'God with us'. He is simply a deluded human being who wears a tee-shirt declaring 'I AM God!' [in other words, 'God in name only'] and as such is a fraud and should be repudiated as such at both the earliest and every available opportunity.

The human nature of the Messiah on the other hand is a finite creature that came into existence only at the Incarnation and as such had no existence prior to the Incarnation [the Infinite Divine Nature of the Messiah is, of course, Eternal and therefore obviously had existence prior to the Incarnation]. The Messiah is the combination of both the Eternal Infinite Divine Creator and the temporal finite human creature into ONE PERSON. Only when the two natures are combined together into ONE PERSON does 'the Messiah' actually come into existence.

Therefore, since the Messiah is BOTH Infinite Divine Creator AND finite human creature, there is no contradiction when the Scriptures speak of either one nature or the other, or even both natures combined in the ONE PERSON who is the Messiah.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

The ABSOLUTNESS and FORM of GOD is a Mystery. We go round and round with this trinity issue. The fact is GOD is not human. Somehow an interactive portion of GOD was able to become human. GOD is an essence and eternally exists as 3 entities. Each entity is mysteriously connected and interactive with the other 2 entities. These three are so perfectly joined that they are one. Jesus, in taking on a human form had to subjugate to the will of at least one of the other entities. Jesus in human form laid asside the right HE possed to know everything. The fact is that while Jesus walked the earth, Jesus eluded [alluded] to the fact that HE was subject to the will of HIS FATHER. A triangle exists because it has three sides. Take a side away and it is no longer a triangle. GOD is 3 and will always be three. Three is what GOD is. GOD is not human. GOD is not angel. GOD is not a created being of any sort. Yet, GOD was able to take on human mortality to accomplish HIS GOALS for HIS GLORY and HE did this by sending the entity CHRIST to come to earth as a human with a spirit.

NO. GOD IS ONE ENTITY [BEING] (Deut.6:4) NOT THREE ENTITIES [BEINGS]. GOD IS THREE PERSONS, NOT ONE PERSON.

'Jesus Christ' did not exist prior to the Incarnation. The Person of the Messiah (called Jesus of Nazareth) only came into existence at the Incarnation. The Messiah's Divine Nature [The Eternally Begotten Son/Word of God -the second Person of the Trinity] is the only part of the Messiah that existed prior to the Incarnation but it was only when the Divine Nature was combined with the human nature, through the Virgin Birth, that the Messiah came into existence.

God (in the Messiah) is now Human (which was the whole point of the Incarnation) but He is not 'just' human (which is precisely why God has to be Trinitarian in Nature) which he would have been had God simply been Unitarian in Nature, effectively swapping his 'divine nature' for a 'human nature'. By being Trinitarian in Nature God can (in the Messiah) become a finite human creature and yet still remain the Infinite Divine Creator. In other words because God is three Persons within the One Infinite Divine Being, His Infinite Divine Nature as Creator is not compromised by becoming (in the Messiah) a finite human creature.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

... "GOD is 3 and will always be three. Three is what GOD is."



that's a direct contradiction. The bible clearly states, Jesus is not God... the Father is God... there is only one, there is not three. it specifically seperates Jesus from the father. Yes, they are connected, but they aren't 1 entity in 3 forms.

You're picking on someone who's theological definitions are sufficiently imprecise as to be theologically wrong (even though what they are trying to do is defend the traditional orthodox Trinitarian position). As bishop J.C.Ryle once said "Imprecise theological definition is the essence of religious controversy". This does not however alter the truth of the Trinitarian doctrine in any way.

The Bible does not state that Jesus is not God at all, that is simply theological presuppositional heresy being read into the Scriptures (Jn.10:30-33). Whilst the Bible unequivocally teaches that God is One Being (Deut.6:4) it also teaches that that One Being is also comprised of Three separate and distinct Persons [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] all of whom are co-equal in every way.

Whilst a clear distinction is made between God [specifically the Father and the Holy Spirit] and the Messiah [because, unlike the Trinitarian God who is purely Infinite Divine Creator and the Human Race who are purely finite human creatures, the Messiah, by having two natures (the hypostatic union), is a unique combinational hybrid of Infinite Divine Creator AND finite human creature] (Jn.14:28) the Scriptures do not deny or repudiate the Divinity of the Messiah on the basis of that distinction (Jn.10:30-33).

If God is not Trinitarian in Nature, as you assert, then please substantiate from Scripture (in context) the precise nature of the 'connection' between the three Persons [beings?!] preferably in a way which is not internally contradictory?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

BUT TO US ONE GOD----THE FATHER OF WHOM ALL THINGS ARE AND WE IN HIM AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ALL THINGS EXIST AND WE BY HIM.

This verse is actually saying that the Father and Christ did the exact same thing making them ONE GOD.

Exactly.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

read it carefully. Note...it doesnt say 'There is one God, the Father...and Jesus Christ...' it doesn't say they are both one God...it specifically says 'there is one Go, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ'. This means they are two specific different jobs...neither of them can switch places... The Father is God, Jesus is not God. Jesus is Lord, a title that God, the Father is above. Yes, Jesus is God's greatest servant, and therefore has been given a GREAT title, and a great amount of respect and glory...but no master will make a servant equal to him no matter how much the servant does for him...otherwise he wouldn't be a servant.

Think again: 1Cor.2:6-16; Isa.42:5-8; 43:10-13; Col.1:15-17; Phil.2:6-11; Heb.1:1-14; Rev.4:11. According to the Scriptures (rather than your own theological presuppositions) exactly who is the Creator?
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

Because Jesus has been given some glory (in this case a great amount), does NOT mean that God is giving up his glory by making his son his equal.

Again... When Jesus says he's going to sit at the right hand of God... he is sitting at the right hand.... not in God's seat.

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That is not what the Scriptures teach at all. Rev.3:21-22.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

nice nice. Yea, I actually agree with you... no fun to argue with someone you agree with .

Perhaps now you can start to have fun?

Simonline.

Oh God, I will be so glad when this week is over and that crass birthday notification finally disappears.

 

[Simonline]

Nobody want to comment (either for or against) on what I have written above [I refuse to believe that I am being allowed to have the last word on the subject]? Maybe, 'Gregorian', you're not having fun after all?

Simonline

 

[Tinker Grey]

Well, there is a lot to respond to.

First, let me say that it is indeed presumption to say more about God than God says about himself. I think this is true for nearly every (if not every) formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Second, you use the phrase "Biblical understanding of Trinity" -- I find that there is no such thing. All formulations for the Trinity are derived from a few hints and suggestions in the Bible. None are explicit enough to make coherent doctrine -- and this is why we have several formulations, include the outright denial thereof.

Third, I believe the classical formulation in orthodox Christianity is "three persons, one essense" -- not "three persons, one being". Here, we may be dealing with mere semantics. For me, one being is analogous to, say, me. To suggest that God is three persons and one being is to suggest that God is schizophrenic. YMMV. OTOH, "three persons, one essense" allows for a unique closeness without straying into bizarre territory.

"Family" may be a weak analogy. But, I believe it is the best we've got. (Beats the old ice-water-steam and egg stuff.) You may think it is weak because it doesn't stress unity enough. However, if you stress unity so much as to say "3 persons, 1 being", you get schizophrenia.

Fourth (perhaps a reiteration of the second), all formulations of the Trinity are man-made. They all attempt to understand what God has not given us to understand. Man-made attempts have man-made motivations.

To have absolute certainty about which no Biblical author wrote is too daring for my tastes.

 

[The Gregorian]

What you are missing is the hypostatic union. The Messiah has two natures, one Infinite Divine Creator, the other finite human creature. When the Messiah says 'The Father is greater than I' (Jn.14:28) he is referring exclusively to his [created] finite human nature, in which case, the Father, as Infinite Divine Creator, would obviously be greater than the finite human creature (the man, Jesus of Nazareth). The corollory to this is Jn.10:30 where the Messiah says 'I and the Father are one'.

how about a different way to put this....

Assuming that Jesus is God in human form... if God himself came to earth as a human called Jesus... that would mean Jesus and YHWH are the same person. But... since he said "the Father is greater than I" obviously he, as YHWH, is greater than Jesus... so why do so many people pray directly to Jesus, asking Jesus for things, etc. when Jesus no longer exists (due to the fact that he is once again YHWH). Why not direct worship to the greater form instead of the lesser, human form that no longer exists due to the fact that the one god that came to earth in this form, is no longer on earth, therefore no longer in that form, therefore that form (Jesus) no longer exists?

 

[The Gregorian]

Nobody want to comment (either for or against) on what I have written above [I refuse to believe that I am being allowed to have the last word on the subject]? Maybe, 'Gregorian', you're not having fun after all?

naaah, I've been playing a new video game called Guild wars... spent a lot of time there, and on those forums so I've been slacking on responces... I'm going through 'em today. Before I get too far, I just want to make sure we stay on friendly terms. It looks like we're both the kind of people who enjoy debates, and I know I tend to prod people in a way that they may not like, in order to make my arguement understood. Just keep in mind, I have nothing against you, I'm not mad... in fact I'm enjoying the debate. Even if we don't agree, I anticipate that you'll be a person I'll have fun talking with, don't want us to get mad at eachother.

Absolutely not, since God, as the Creator, cannot possibly be a creature by any stretch of the imagination.

God is ONE BEING who also happens to be THREE PERSONS - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - none of whom are created beings.

By "Creature" I'm just using a word better than "person" ... meant in the same way as "being." What I meant was, "human" is a type of creature... I am one human, my roomate is a different human... but we are both the same type of creture (a human). Likewise, in my opinion, Jesus, being God's "son" is the same "type of creature" in this case (spiritual being.... but not an angel) as God... as any Father/son relationship, they are the same "race" but not the same personality. It's possible that every member of that race flow together... like... the force in star wars... thereby being the same "entity" while being different people.... their physical form doesn't matter. My questioning of the "trinity" is not questioning the nature of God's physical structure... I have no idea about that.... but whether "Jesus" and his father are both the same thing.

That having been said... you say they're three persons in one being. Again... maybe he's a hydra... maybe God is one creture with three heads, each having it's own personality (like the statue of the alians on Pitch black: the Chronicals of Riddik)... that may be, may not be... but you have to choose between one thing:

A: The Father and Son are the same. (there is no difference... may be different forms, but praying to the Father is praying to the Son, and vice versa)
B: The Father and Son are seperate. (they are two different "things" with seperate personalities and knowledges, i.e. to pray to the Father is not to pray to the son.)

Before we can go further, you have to decide on one. Again.. I'm not talking physically... I'm asking if they have seperate "souls"... if you tell God something, and he wants Jesus not to know, can God know something that Jesus doesn't?


(btw, I quoted a lot of words... words in quotes are the best word I could think of.)

 

[Simonline]

Well, there is a lot to respond to.

First, let me say that it is indeed presumption to say more about God than God says about himself. I think this is true for nearly every (if not every) formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.

You have yet to establish that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity goes beyond God's revelation of Himself throughout the entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures. As I have already said, the term 'Trinity' is a term created by the early Church in order to fully encapsulate the full revelation of God concerning himself which God has revealed to Mankind through the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. Unlike those who approach the Scriptures with their theological presuppositions and then, on the basis of those theological presuppositions, arbitrarily accept or reject theological truths concerning the Nature of God as revealed in the Scriptures in accordance with their own presuppositions, those who hold to the orthodox Trinitarian understanding of God have sought to build a composite picture that is inclusive of all the revelational propositional statements concerning the Nature of God that are found throughout the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Whilst it is true that God has never explicitly declared Himself to be Trinitarian in Nature (by using that exact terminology) that does not alter the fact that the only explanation which consistently fits all the evidence that God has given us throughout the Scriptures is the explanation that God is Trinitarian in Nature. Furthermore, it is not true that something is false unless explicitly stated to be true by God (as you are trying to argue here concerning the Trinity).

Those, like myself, who declare God to be Trinitarian in Nature are NOT 'saying more about God than God says about himself' at all. What we are doing is bringing together all the different revelational strands of truth concerning the Nature of God which are found throughout the Bible and coalescing them into one cohesive doctrine (the doctrine of the Trinity). Furthermore, instead of starting from ourselves as creatures and projecting our finite likeness [image] back onto the Infinite Creator and then trying to force the Infinite Creator to conform to our finite likeness, we are starting with God's revelation of himself to discover what God is like and then, on that basis, working down from the revelation of the Infinite God to discover what we who are made in the likeness [image] of that Infinite God are like as finite creatures...i.e. working from Creator to creature and not creature to Creator as do those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

The presumption lies with those who arrogantly presume to know better than God Himself what God is like, even when God has revealed Himself to Mankind through His Word, Spoken, Written and Living.

Second, you use the phrase "Biblical understanding of Trinity" -- I find that there is no such thing. All formulations for the Trinity are derived from a few hints and suggestions in the Bible. None are explicit enough to make coherent doctrine -- and this is why we have several formulations, include the outright denial thereof.

There is only 'no such thing' as a Biblical understanding of the Trinity for those who are culpably spiritually blind (Matt.13:14-17; 1Cor.2:6-16). I can assure you that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on a lot more than 'a few hints and suggestions'. The doctrine of the Trinity is formulated on the basis of what the Bible explicitly states concerning the Nature of the One God and definitely not on hints, suggestions or arguments from silence. If the Trinity is a false doctrine then that, by definition, means that the Bible is nothing more than a catalogue of theological contradictions and the Judeo-Christian Faith is a false religion. If that really were the case then Christianity would have been consigned to the annals of history centuries ago.

Third, I believe the classical formulation in orthodox Christianity is "three persons, one essense" -- not "three persons, one being". Here, we may be dealing with mere semantics. For me, one being is analogous to, say, me. To suggest that God is three persons and one being is to suggest that God is schizophrenic. YMMV. OTOH, "three persons, one essense" allows for a unique closeness without straying into bizarre territory.

Then you would most definitely be wrong since that would make Judeo-Christianity a polytheistic religion (like the ancient Greek and Roman religions and modern day Mormonism). The Scriptures are repeatedly absolutely explicit that there is only ONE GOD. This is NEVER up for discussion or debate. It is beyond contention (which is why Mormonism is not Christian by any stretch of the imagination). Your assertion that God is 'three Persons/one essence' is polytheism and as such has absolutely nothing to do with orthodox Judeo-Christianity. The doctrine that God is One Being/three Persons is orthodox Judeo-Christianity, the revelation of God to Mankind concerning his very Being and Nature.

Schizophrenia is an aberation in finite human creatures precisely because we are finite human creatures and as such only have the capacity to be unitarian - one being/one person. This however is not the case with the Infinite Creator. He has the capacity for more than one Person within his one Being, to be Trinitarian - One Being/Three Persons. We should not attempt at this point to restrict God to our finite dimensions.

There is nothing bizarre about the Trinity. It is the doctrine which most accurately reflects the true Nature of God as he has revealed himself to us and not as we think he should be or as we would like him to be (so that we can understand him better and thereby reduce him to the level of a finite creature).

"Family" may be a weak analogy. But, I believe it is the best we've got. (Beats the old ice-water-steam and egg stuff.) You may think it is weak because it doesn't stress unity enough. However, if you stress unity so much as to say "3 persons, 1 being", you get schizophrenia.

'Family' is an apaling analogy and one which should be discarded as soon as possible. The very reason why God says that we are not to try and make any representations of him whatsoever is precisely because whatever we come up with will always be woefully inadequate and as such will always distort our understanding of him, since, as the Infinite Creator, he is absolutely unlike any created thing in either this world or the next.

It is not a case of 'unity' (as in separate individual beings working together in very close harmony) since that is polytheism (multiple beings) and that flatly contradicts the Scriptures when they repeatedly declare [unequivocally] that God is One (and only One). God is One (Deut.6:4) but he is not schizophrenic. He does not have a personality disorder. He has three separate and distinct Personalities [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] within his One Being.

Fourth (perhaps a reiteration of the second), all formulations of the Trinity are man-made. They all attempt to understand what God has not given us to understand. Man-made attempts have man-made motivations.

Of course all Trinitarian formulations (actually there's only one orthodox formulation) are man made but that doesn't make them false simply because they are ways in which finite human creatures articulate Truth about the Infinite Creator God. If Truth is bigger than the Human mind to fully comprehend (Jn.14:6) then why are we surprized when we articulate it in ways that appear to be either contradictory or illogical whilst actually being neither contradictory or illogical but simply feeble articulations of absolute propositional Truth?

If the doctrine of the Trinity is a man-made formulation, an attempt to understand what [in your opinion] God has not given us to understand, then what exactly has God given us to understand that accurately represents God in such a way as not to reduce him to the level of a finite creature and thus make him nothing more than a projection of the human imagination?! If 'man-made attempts have man-made motivations' then what doe that say for the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, since they are also 'man-made'?!

To have absolute certainty about which no Biblical author wrote is too daring for my tastes.

Then you must obviously be reading a different 'Bible' to the rest of the Judeo-Christian faithfull?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

how about a different way to put this....

Assuming that Jesus is God in human form... if God himself came to earth as a human called Jesus... that would mean Jesus and YHWH are the same person. But... since he said "the Father is greater than I" obviously he, as YHWH, is greater than Jesus... so why do so many people pray directly to Jesus, asking Jesus for things, etc. when Jesus no longer exists (due to the fact that he is once again YHWH). Why not direct worship to the greater form instead of the lesser, human form that no longer exists due to the fact that the one god that came to earth in this form, is no longer on earth, therefore no longer in that form, therefore that form (Jesus) no longer exists?

That is not a different way of putting what I said. That is saying something completely different.

I have absolutely no idea from where you have got your understanding of Christian theology but it certainly isn't the Bible.

Firstly, the Messiah is God in human form [Emmanuel - God with us] but since God is Trinitarian in Nature there is no conflict between the three Persons of the Trinity. YHWH is the name of the One God (who is comprised of three Persons - Father Son, and Holy Spirit - all three of whom are equally YHWH). However, only the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) is the Messiah - Emmanuel - God with us.

When the Messiah declared his Father to be greater than he (Jn.14:28), he was referring to his finite human nature alone. That being the case, then obviously his Father (as Infinite Divine Creator) was going to be greater than he as finite human being. However, in Jn.10:30 the Messiah (this time speaking of his Divine Nature alone) declares that he and his Father are One [in other words they are both (along with the Holy Spirit) YHWH]. The fact that this is understood by the Jews who heard him declare this is evidenced by the fact that their reaction was to pick up stones in order to try and stone him to death for blasphemy (Jn.10:31-33).

People pray to the Messiah because they too have defective theology. The Scriptures declare that when the Messiah's disciples asked the Messiah to teach them how to pray he taught them to pray what has become known as 'The Lord's Prayer'. This begins 'Our Father who art in Heaven...' and not 'Dear Lord Jesus...'. The Messiah never taught or instructed anyone to pray to him (even though he was/is Divine) but always to pray to the Father in Heaven. This is because the Messiah is unique amongst all beings that exist (including God) in that he has two natures - one Infinite Divine Creator, the other finite human creature. The technical term for this is the hypostatic union. Because the Messiah is part Creator and part Creature the Messiah always directed other humans toward 'God in Heaven' who, unlike him, was not part Creator and part creature but was totally Infinite Divine Creator and therefore the rightful object of our worship.

The Scriptures record instances when disciples worshipped the Messiah and on no occasion do they record that the Messiah refused their worship of him (since to do so would have been to deny his own Divinity) but neither do the Scriptures record that he positively accepted or encouraged their worship either (since he did not want to encourage them to worship him as part Creator and part creature and thereby risk making his human nature into an idol). Therefore we must go only by what the Messiah actively taught (no arguments from silence here) and he taught his disciples always to pray to God [YHWH] in Heaven [which, of course, always includes Father, Son and Holy Spirit].

Since the Incarnation, the Infinite Divine Nature that is the eternally begotten Son/Word of God - the second Person of the Trinity - has been united with the finite human nature of Jesus of Nazareth to become the One Person of 'the Messiah' (One Person/two Natures - hypostatic union). That is now permanent, forever. The two natures will NEVER be separated. The Messiah will always exist as part Divine Creator and part human creature. The Messiah will NEVER become a non-corporeal entity. He will NEVER cease to exist as he is now, complete with resurrection body. Because of this fact the Messiah himself should never be the object of our worship. Only God [YHWH] in Heaven [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] should ever be the object of our prayers and worship.

The Messiah has not ceased to exist simply because he is no longer walking on this Earth. The Bible teaches that the Messiah continues to exist (as the Messiah) and that at some future point he will return to this planet to fulfill the Father's purposes for him.

Food for thought?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Naaah, I've been playing a new video game called Guild wars... spent a lot of time there, and on those forums so I've been slacking on responces... I'm going through 'em today. Before I get too far, I just want to make sure we stay on friendly terms. It looks like we're both the kind of people who enjoy debates, and I know I tend to prod people in a way that they may not like, in order to make my arguement understood. Just keep in mind, I have nothing against you, I'm not mad... in fact I'm enjoying the debate. Even if we don't agree, I anticipate that you'll be a person I'll have fun talking with, don't want us to get mad at eachother.

I may get sarcastic from time to time but don't take it personally, When I get out of hand my friends just come around and remind me that I'm not God by slapping me down a bit.You just gotta grow thick skin and then let my sarcasm roll off you like water off a ducks back. OK?! Yeah I love debating too but some time my passion gets the better of me and occasionally I loose it a bit.

By "Creature" I'm just using a word better than "person" ... meant in the same way as "being." What I meant was, "human" is a type of creature... I am one human, my roomate is a different human... but we are both the same type of creture (a human). Likewise, in my opinion, Jesus, being God's "son" is the same "type of creature" in this case (spiritual being.... but not an angel) as God... as any Father/son relationship, they are the same "race" but not the same personality. It's possible that every member of that race flow together... like... the force in star wars... thereby being the same "entity" while being different people.... their physical form doesn't matter. My questioning of the "trinity" is not questioning the nature of God's physical structure... I have no idea about that.... but whether "Jesus" and his father are both the same thing.

Nah! The first thing you have to learn about me is that I am implaccably hostile to sloppy definitions. It is absolutely imperative that you state exactly and absolutely precisely what you mean (otherwise we're wasting time debating the wrong things based on misunderstandings caused by sloppy semantics). I will not budge on this point.

God is THE CREATOR, not a creature. He existed first before any human being and we are made in His image, he is NOT made in ours. God has always had personality. We only got personality because we are made in his image (made to be like him). Being finite creatures we can only have one personality each (we don't have the capacity for more than that - not without becoming dysfunctional anyway) but being Infinite, God has three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You and your room-mate are both human creatures but you are separate and distinct beings too. God, on the other hand, whilst being only ONE BEING has the capacity to have three separate and distinct Persons or Personalities. It is the Persons who are separate, not the Being. Remember, Persona existed before humanity.

Jesus is the human name for the Messiah and refers to that part of the Messiah that is finite human creature. The Messiah's Divine Nature (a.k.a. the eternally begotten Son/Word of God - the second Person of the Trinity) is one of the three Personalities of the One Being who is God [YHWH]. Although He is a separate Person to the Father and the Holy Spirit, He is not a separate Being to either the Father or the Holy Spirit.

God has no physical form (Jn.4:24). God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is pure Spirit and all ONE BEING (Deut.6:4). God is not a 'family' of three separate and distinct beings (that's polytheism). He is ONE BEING with three separate and distinct personalities. 'Entity' is just another word for 'being'. God is ONE ENTITY/ONE BEING with three separate and distinct personalities - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That having been said... you say they're three persons in one being. Again... maybe he's a hydra... maybe God is one creature with three heads, each having it's own personality (like the statue of the alians on Pitch black: the Chronicals of Riddik)... that may be, may not be... but you have to choose between one thing:

A: The Father and Son are the same. (there is no difference... may be different forms, but praying to the Father is praying to the Son, and vice versa)
B: The Father and Son are seperate. (they are two different "things" with seperate personalities and knowledges, i.e. to pray to the Father is not to pray to the son.)

Before we can go further, you have to decide on one. Again.. I'm not talking physically... I'm asking if they have seperate "souls"... if you tell God something, and he wants Jesus not to know, can God know something that Jesus doesn't?


(btw, I quoted a lot of words... words in quotes are the best word I could think of.)

NO. The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely non-negotiable. You will get what the Bible teaches, nothing more and nothing less. God is NOT a hydra (a creature from Greek mythology). The absolute bottom line is that absolutely no finite creature can ever adequately represent or acurately define the Nature of the Trinitarian God. The closest thing to the Trinitarian God is that which is made in His image - Man - but even that is woefully inadequate, hence, no graven images, no exceptions.

God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is omniscient. THat means he knows absolutely everything about absolutely everything. It is not possible for one part of the Divine Being to know more or less than another part of the Divine Being since they are all part of the same ONE BEING.

Simonline.

 

[The Gregorian]

I have absolutely no idea from where you have got your understanding of Christian theology but it certainly isn't the Bible.

Firstly, the Messiah is God in human form [Emmanuel - God with us]

OK... if God, the father, YHWH, came to earth to become Jesus... then Jesus is the Father, hense, when Jesus went back to heaven, he became the father, hense there is no Jesus. Correct?

but since God is Trinitarian in Nature there is no conflict between the three Persons of the Trinity. YHWH is the name of the One God (who is comprised of three Persons - Father Son, and Holy Spirit - all three of whom are equally YHWH). However, only the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) is the Messiah - Emmanuel - God with us.

Then... if they're three seperate people... if ONLY Jesus/Emmanuel is the messiah, therefore the Father isn't, then, regardless of how they're physically joined, they're seperate people.

You have to decide... either they're seperate beings, or they're the same being. If they're a three headed being with three souls, that counts as three beings... if they're a three headed being with one soul, they are one being... before we go further...

Is Jesus the Father, are they the same exact person, or are they seperate people (regardless of their relationship)?

People pray to the Messiah because they too have defective theology. The Scriptures declare that when the Messiah's disciples asked the Messiah to teach them how to pray he taught them to pray what has become known as 'The Lord's Prayer'. This begins 'Our Father who art in Heaven...' and not 'Dear Lord Jesus...'. The Messiah never taught or instructed anyone to pray to him (even though he was/is Divine) but always to pray to the Father in Heaven.

So... since Jesus instructed us to pray to the father, and specifically not to him, there is a difference, therefore they're not the same mental being.

The two natures will NEVER be separated. The Messiah will always exist as part Divine Creator and part human creature. The Messiah will NEVER become a non-corporeal entity. He will NEVER cease to exist as he is now, complete with resurrection body. Because of this fact the Messiah himself should never be the object of our worship. Only God [YHWH] in Heaven [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] should ever be the object of our prayers and worship.

... not only is Jesus one person in two natures, but the God of one nature is three persons, at least one of which having two natures... that makes no sense at all.


you have the same problem I do... we see a lot of posts so we comment on everything.... but before I can get to deep into conversation I really need to understand how you think in a simplified way:

1: Is Jesus the Father in human form? Did the Father stop existing while Jesus was on earth.

it really sounds like you're one of the people who say that God is three people in one form, but one person in three forms, and Jesus is a seperate person but the same, but he has his own forms, but all are in one form.... The bible never indicates any of that... it simply says... there is a spiritual being in heaven (God, YHWH) and another... seperate... individual... NOT the father spirit named (Jesus). Jesus, not YHWH came to earth to become human temporarily. This is what the bible says in simple terms... it's perfectly logical... it makes sense... the bible never even HINTS at

a trinity/duality/schizophrenic god, where Jesus should never be worshiped, because, while he's not on earth, still has an earthly body, but it's not here, but Jesus is god, and should be worshipped, but not, because he's still human....

 

[The Gregorian]

[/font] God [Father, Son and Holy Spirit] is omniscient. THat means he knows absolutely everything about absolutely everything. It is not possible for one part of the Divine Being to know more or less than another part of the Divine Being since they are all part of the same ONE BEING.

still not getting which definition you're taking. Everyone sees only ONE clear way to define who god is... but there are a LOT of people who see a LOT of different ways to express it.

For the purposes of talking to me, for lack of a better word, when I say the same "person," "individual," "being," "soul," "thing," or anything to that effect this is what I mean: an individual is someone with one set of knowledge. i.e. individual "A" knows (set of information "A"), he may inform Individual "B" of everything... but Individual "B" having a seperate perspective doesn't inherently experience everything that individual "A" does.


1: Are Jesus and his Father seperate individuals?
2: Are Jesus and his Father the same exact individuals, but at different times (i.e. the "father came to earth to BE Jesus" theory)
3: Are they all one individual acting as different roles
4: Is the Father seperate yet the same as the Son who is both present and absent in the glory of the infinity that is divinity.

That's really a wrap up of all the possible combinations. Can you pick one, or come up with a very short definition of their general existance. (no... no one can "Difine infinity" or whatnot... just simplify their relationship into as small of a sentance as possible.)

 

[Hiker of faith]

I'm not good at all this philisophical stuff, but I'll put in my .02 and you all can look at it and laugh or look at it and ponder (or look at it and agree). I see the Godhead (or trinity or whatever you want to call it) as being 3 in 1. There is a father, a son, and a holy spirit, but they are all the same, yet somehow different. I believe it is much like water, steam, and ice. All the same, yet somehow different. And they can all become each other (I don't like that wording, but its the best I can think of right no but as an expample Ice is water once you warm it up, steam is water once you cool it down, etc.......God is Jesus is the Holy Spriit). Thats just the way I see it.
As for why God the son would refer to God the father as being greater then him, I think a big part of this is because while on earth Jesus was an example of how to live the christain life. He prayed to God the father to be an example for everybody that saw and heard him.
What I just wrote probably has huge holes in it, because the trinity is not something that can easily be explained, but this is the way I see it in my mind (plus I don't do the whole debate thing often). A large part of the belief is all based upon faith, and how you interpret the bible.

Peace,
John

 

[Simonline]

Sorry, that was a bit harsh of me....

OK... if God, the father, YHWH, came to earth to become Jesus... then Jesus is the Father, hense, when Jesus went back to heaven, he became the father, hense there is no Jesus. Correct?

No. That is a variation on the ancient heresy of Sabellianism (the modern term is 'Modalism') where God is believed to be essentially Unitarian (One Being/One Person) and therefore can only be 'one person at a time', either the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit but not the Father, Son and Holy Spirt simultaneously (as with the Trinity). The problem with this idea is the simultaneous manifestation of all three persons of the Godhead at the baptism of the Messiah.

YHWH is not simply 'the Father' alone, YHWH is the name of God in totality, the ONE BEING who is also Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three Persons of the Godhead are equally YHWH and as such equally Divine, Eternal, Infinite, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Immutable etc.

The Incarnation involved only the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God). Only God, the Son became human (became Jesus of Nazareth). The God, the Father and God, the Holy Spirit remained pure Spirit (non-corporeal (Jn.4:24)) throughout.

Since God the Son has become Incarnate he will forever be joined to his human Nature. He will never separate from his human nature as an astronaut climbs out of his space suit upon returning from a mission into outer space. The Messiah's human nature is an essential part of who he is as a Person. Separating the Messiah from his human nature would effectively destroy the Messiah. Once the Son of God became a human being he would stay a human being forever (with a resurrection body but still a human being).

Then... if they're three seperate people... if ONLY Jesus/Emmanuel is the messiah, therefore the Father isn't, then, regardless of how they're physically joined, they're seperate people.

The three Persons of the Godhead are not 'physically joined' (Jn.4:24). Yes, only the second Person of the Trinity (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) is the Messiah. The Father and the Holy Spirit are not the Messiah. Yes, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ARE three separate and distinct Persons, but they are, all three, still part of the ONE BEING. God, by Nature, is non-corporeal (non-physical) - The Divine Nature (being Infinite) can NEVER be corporeal (physical) Jn.4:24. This is why the Messiah has to have two natures, one that is Infinite Divine Creator (and totally non-physical) and the other that is finite human creature (and therefore able to be physical). If the Messiah had only one nature then he would not be able to be both Divine and human he could only be Divine or human. But as it is, the Messiah is both Divine and human, that is the miracle of the Incarnation.

You have to decide... either they're seperate beings, or they're the same being. If they're a three headed being with three souls, that counts as three beings... if they're a three headed being with one soul, they are one being... before we go further...

No. I don't have to decide. I have to be true to what God has revealed to Mankind concerning himself through his word, spoken, written and living. God has revealed himself to be ONE GOD who is also three separate and distinct Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am aware of the fact that this is difficult to comprehend and doesn't make logical sense but it is the Truth as God has revealed it to Mankind. The bottom line is that some aspects of the Truth simply cannot be worked out and understood through human reason alone, they have to be revealed to Man through Divine revelation (1Cor.2:6-16). Only then will they be comprehended by human reason. Remember, God is Truth, Truth is God (Jn.14:6) and he is infinitely bigger than the human mind to comprehend. therefore we have to wait for him to reveal himself to us otherwise we would know absolutely nothing about God and we would be left to grope about in the darkness and our own futile ignorance.

Is Jesus the Father, are they the same exact person, or are they seperate people (regardless of their relationship)?

?! [How can you ask that question '...regardless of their relationship' when the very question itself is about the exact nature of their relationship?]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct Persons whilst at the same time being ONE [non-corporeal (non-physical)] BEING. THis is how God has revealed himself to Mankind and if that is what God himself has declared God to be like then who are we to argue?! [Personally, I would have bigger problems if God declared himself (on the 'McDonalds principle') to be simply a 'bigger version' of a unitarian human being.]

So... since Jesus instructed us to pray to the father, and specifically not to him, there is a difference, therefore they're not the same mental being.

Whilst the Messiah did teach his disciples to pray to the Father in Heaven, he did not specifically teach his disciples not to pray to him (since this would have been to deny his own Divinity, furthermore, it was unnecessary to teach a Jew not to pray to anyone but God in heaven since the entire Jewish nation had for centuries been taught that to pray to anyone other than God in heaven was idolatry - which is why the Jewish nation was the only nation on earth whom the Romans excused from emperor worship, quite an achievement in the teeth of the mighty Roman Empire).

... not only is Jesus one person in two natures, but the God of one nature is three persons, at least one of which having two natures... that makes no sense at all.

God is ONE BEING, consisting of three Persons, all sharing the same nature. One of those three Persons (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God) became incarnate and joined his nature with human nature (from the virgin Mary through the virgin birth by the Holy Spirit) to become the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, is ONE PERSON with two natures, one, Infinite Divine Creator, the other finite human creature.

You have the same problem I do... we see a lot of posts so we comment on everything.... but before I can get to deep into conversation I really need to understand how you think in a simplified way:

1: Is Jesus the Father in human form? Did the Father stop existing while Jesus was on earth.

it really sounds like you're one of the people who say that God is three people in one form, but one person in three forms, and Jesus is a seperate person but the same, but he has his own forms, but all are in one form.... The bible never indicates any of that... it simply says... there is a spiritual being in heaven (God, YHWH) and another... seperate... individual... NOT the father spirit named (Jesus). Jesus, not YHWH came to earth to become human temporarily. This is what the bible says in simple terms... it's perfectly logical... it makes sense... the bible never even HINTS at a trinity/duality/schizophrenic god, where Jesus should never be worshiped, because, while he's not on earth, still has an earthly body, but it's not here, but Jesus is god, and should be worshipped, but not, because he's still human....

Wha?!

I comment on what is necessary in order to try and help people to understand the Truth as God has revealed it.

God is ONE BEING who is called YHWH ('I AM') and who is also three separate and distinct Persons or Personalities [Don't think of a human when you think of a 'Person', instead, think of (non-physical) Personality, since Personality existed long before Human Beings existed] the Father, the Son (not Jesus yet, the human, Jesus of Nazareth only came into existence at the Incarnation) and the Holy Spirit.

When it was time for the Incarnation the second Person (Personality) of the Godhead [the Son] joined his Infinite Divine Nature with the finite human nature from Mary to become the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth - two natures, but only ONE PERSON. The Messiah is part Divine (because of his Infinite Divine Nature - from his Father) and part human (because of his finite human nature - from his mother).

The first and third Persons of the Godhead [Father and Holy Spirit] continued to exist in their own right (separate Persons from the Son/Messiah but all still the ONE same Infinite Divine Creator) as evidenced by their 'guest appearances' at the Messiah's baptism. When the Messiah taught his disciples to pray to 'the Father in Heaven' he was not teaching them to pray to the same Person as himself [the Son] since the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate and distinct Persons, but he was teaching them to pray to the same Divine Being as himself [i.e. the One True God] (Deut.6:4).

God is three Persons in One Being (who can manifest in whatever form he so chooses, since, the form in which he manifests is not essential to who or what he is as God. This is all that the Son of God 'gave up' when he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary. He did not 'give up' any of his essential attributes or Nature as God, thereby effectively becoming God 'in name only' (which is in reality, no God at all)).

God is NOT one Person in three 'forms' or 'roles' (one human being who is simultaneously a 'son' to his parents, a 'husband' to his wife and a 'father' to his children). This is a variation on the ancient heresy of Sabellianism or 'Modalism'.

Simonline.

 

[dcyates]

read it carefully:Re: 1 Cor. 8.6
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]note... it doesn't say 'there is one God, the Father ... and Jesus Christ...' it doesn't say they are both one God... it specifically says "there is one God, the father and one Lord, Jesus Christ." This means they are two specific different jobs... neither of them can switch places... The Father is God, Jesus is not God. Jesus is Lord, a title that God, the Father, is above. Yes... Jesus is God's greatest servant, and therefore has been given a GREAT title, and a great amount of respect and glory.... but no master will make a servant equal to him no matter how much the servant does for him... otherwise he wouldn't be a servant.[/font]

You're failing to properly appreciate, Gregorian, the actual significance of the title 'Lord' within the Jewish context of the Second Temple period. To them, 'Lord', or adonai, was a title that was to be applied exclusively to YHWH, only to God. As you are likely already aware, in most English translations of the Hebrew Bible today whenever you come to the title 'LORD', with all its letters capitalized, it indicates that this is a place in the original Hebrew text where one would have found the four letters that make up the divine name YHWH. But, coupled with the fact that the ancient Hebrew lacked vowels, and that the Jews refused to actually verbalize out loud the name of God for fear of inadvertently mispronouncing it, the actual pronounciation of the divine name became lost. Thus, whenever someone read the Tanakh--and this was always done out loud (indeed the practice of reading silently to oneself is a relatively recent development in history)--when they came to the divine name they would automatically employ the Hebrew reading principle called 'ketib qere', and replace 'YHWH' with the Hebrew word for 'lord', adonai. Now, the words 'ketib' and 'qere' mean 'that which is written' and 'that which is read', respectively. In other words, 'that which is written' is YHWH, but 'that which is read' is adonai, or Lord. We should also take into account that, having been all but completely cured of their incessant idolatry by the Babylonian exile, the majority of the post-exilic Jews were fiercely monotheistic. Hence, the Hebrews of the Second Temple period reserved the title of 'lord' exclusively to YHWH. As a result, for any Second Temple Jew--and let's remember that all the NT writers were Second Temple Jews (even if Luke was not actually Jewish--and I strongly suspect that he indeed was--he nevertheless certainly had the mind of a Jew)--to refer to Jesus as Lord is of simply huge significance. It essentially amounts to the same thing as calling him YHWH, or God.

The Gregorian: Because Jesus has been given some glory (in this case a great amount), does NOT mean that God is giving up his glory by making his son his equal.

Oh, but it does. Paul here in his epistle to the Philippians asserts that because of Jesus' humble obedience--even to the point of death on a cross--God "highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name" (2.9) Please tell me, what could that name be? What could be the only name "which is above every name"? The only possible answer, the only possible name which could be descibed as above every name is the name I was just referring to above, the divine name itself: YHWH. Paul then immediately follows this with a quote from Isaiah 45.23, "that at the name of Jesus 'EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW... AND EVERY TONGUE SHOULD CONFESS' that Jesus Christ is Lord (vv. 10-11). Look up Isaiah 45.23 and ask yourself, 'Who is doing the talking here'? YHWH himself. In fact, Paul here is quoting from one of the most fiercely monotheistic sections in all of Scripture, citing words that YHWH applies to himself, and that therefore any Jew would apply to no one else other than YHWH. And yet he applies these words to Jesus of Nazareth.
What's more, again as alluded to above, the very fact that Paul or any of the other writers of the NT would refer to Jesus as "Lord," as he does here in Phil. 2.11 is (to be so bold as to quote myself) of simply huge significance. To us Westerners of the early 21st-century the title of 'Lord' means relatively little. But to Second Temple Jews of the 1st-century, the term 'Lord' is nothing less than an evasive euphemism for the divine name itself. Thus, Paul is here saying, God bestowed on Jesus the one and only name which is above every other name, the divine name itself, YHWH. And that it is to Jesus that "'every knee should bow... and every tongue should confess' that Jesus Christ is" adonai, the Lord. The implication is really quite clear: Jesus is God!
Moreover, getting more directly to your point, Paul is here also quoting from a section of Scripture where YHWH explicitly declares he will not share his glory with anyone else (Isa. 42.8; 48.11). Yet, as you've already acknolwedged, Paul here explains that God has "highly exalted" Jesus. In other words, he has highly glorified him.

The Gregorian: Again... When Jesus says he's going to sit at the right hand of God... he is sitting at the right hand.... not in God's seat.

It is here that any study of NT christology must begin (but almost never does). Psalm 110, especially v. 1, is the most cited OT passage in the NT (Mt 22.44; 26.64; Mk 12.36; Lk 20.42; Acts 2.34-35; 1 Cor 15.25; Eph 1.20; Col 3.1; Heb 1.3, 13; 5.6, 10; 6.20; 7.17, 21; 8.1; 10.12; 12.2; 1 Pet 3.22). Psalm 110 is a 'messianic enthronement' song. Its language therefore bears primarily on Jesus' messiahship, not his deity. Although it should be noted that it also does not in any way deny it.

 

[Simonline]

still not getting which definition you're taking. Everyone sees only ONE clear way to define who god is... but there are a LOT of people who see a LOT of different ways to express it.

Everyone does not see 'one clear way to define who God is' since not everyone can grasp the truth of the Trinity but this is how God has chosen to reveal himself to Mankind. There are lots of different ways of trying to communicate different ideas about God but not all of those ideas are consistent with what God has revealed to us about himself. If we are to be faithful to God's revelation of himself then we must make every effort to ensure that we have understood the full revelation and not just focused in on one aspect of it and thus developed a distorted understanding.

For the purposes of talking to me, for lack of a better word, when I say the same "person," "individual," "being," "soul," "thing," or anything to that effect this is what I mean: an individual is someone with one set of knowledge. i.e. individual "A" knows (set of information "A"), he may inform Individual "B" of everything... but Individual "B" having a seperate perspective doesn't inherently experience everything that individual "A" does.

In which case you are talking about finite [human?] creatures (but your error is that you are then projecting the limitations of being a finite creature back onto the Infinite Divine Creator - effectively trying to make the Infinite Divine Creator conform to the same limitations as those of his finite human creatures - making God in the image of Man instead of Man in the image of God, as it should be?!)

1: Are Jesus and his Father seperate individuals?

Separate Persons but the same Divine Being.

2: Are Jesus and his Father the same exact individuals, but at different times (i.e. the "father came to earth to BE Jesus" theory)

No. That is the ancient heresy of Sabellianism - the belief that God is essentially Unitarian (one being/one Person) but who at different points assumes different 'persona' or 'masks' like a single actor playing multiple parts (which obviously cannot be done simultaneously). It is generally believed that God was 'Father' during the 'Old Testament'; the 'Son' during the Incarnation and the 'Holy Spirit' since Pentecost. However, this theory unravels at the Messiah's baptism since all three Persons of the Godhead made simultaneous 'guest appearances'.

3: Are they all one individual acting as different roles

No. See answer number 2.

4: Is the Father seperate yet the same as the Son who is both present and absent in the glory of the infinity that is divinity.

The Father is a separate Person to the Son (and the Holy Spirit) whilst at the same time being one and the same Being as the Son and the Holy Spirit. To be 'both present and absent in the glory of the infinity that is divinity' is a contradiction in terms and therefore meaningless nonsense. A thing cannot be both present in the glory of the infinity that is divinity and absent in the glory of the infinity that is divinity in the same simultaneous sense without being a nonsensical contradiction?!

That's really a wrap up of all the possible combinations. Can you pick one, or come up with a very short definition of their general existance. (no... no one can "Define infinity" or whatnot... just simplify their relationship into as small of a sentance as possible.)

Easy! I AM

Simonline.