Trinity question

[The Gregorian]

Read these verses. I'll keep it to only two verses... the first one just to explain the second one... can someone PLEASE tell me how these verses allow for "the trinity" to exist?

point 1:
Mt. 3:11 "Truly, I give baptism with water to those of you whose hearts are changed; but he who comes after me is greater than I, whose shoes I am not good enough to take up: he will give you baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire:"

This shows Jesus to be greater than John the Baptist. i.e. the words "(person A) is greater than (person B)" in the bible actually mean that one person is not only not also the other person, but also greater than the other person.
-----
Point 2:
Joh 14:28
Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

First this shows Jesus was going TO the father, not going to BECOME the father. Second... just as Jesus is greater than John, it says "The father is greater than I."

It might be said that Jesus is the Father... but while on earth he humbled himself... but if he was the father the father would be just as humbled. You can't be more humble than yourself. That aside, he says "the father is greater than I" ... indicating the father exists at the same time he does... not "the father was/will be greater than I." therefore Jesus couldn't be God in human form because God was still in heaven... being greater than his son.

I kept it down to two verses... can someone please explain to me.... why is it... Jesus... repeatedly says "The father is greater than I" yet we assume Jesus is lying and take it to mean the exact opposit, "the father is NOT greater than I." What am I not seeing in this verse that would allow for God not to be greater than his son when his son specifically said that God was greater than him?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Trinitarian doctrine holds that, in fact, the Father and the Son are distinct persons who have the same essense. An analogy is a family. My children are all equally members of the Grey family. My children and I are equally Grey. Nevertheless, we are distinct and have different functions.

The confusion comes in when we say "God", we typically mean, "God, the Father". You might say God is the family name. Thus, God-up-in-heaven and God-down-here-on-Earth are not necessarily in conflict.

As to greater: in a marriage, Christians often say the man is the head of the household. This does not mean that the wife is not equal to the husband. In human life, we will not always agree ... someone has to make the decision.

It could be said that the Godhead is similar -- except that the Father and Son will never be in conflict, to the best of our understanding.

So, "Greater" is positional.

YMMV.

Tinker

 

[gort]

Spiritual Answers to Hard Questions

by Pat Robertson


2. What does the Bible say about the Trinity? (2Cor. 13:14)

The Trinity is one of the great theologicla mysteries. there are some who thing that because we believe in monotheism, one God, we cannot accept the concept of the Trinity. Yet the Bible teaches that the Godhead consists of three divine Persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--each fully God, each showing fully the divine nature (Luke 3:21,22).

The Father is the fountainhead of the Trinity, the Creator, the first cause. He is the primary thought, the concept of all that has been and will be created. Jesus said, "MY Father has been working until now, and I have been working" (John 5:17).

The Son is the "Logos", or expression of God- the "only begotten" of the Father- and He Himself is God. Further, as God incarnate, He reveals the Father to us (John 14:9). The Son of God is both the agent of creation and mankind's only Redeeemer.

The Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity, proceeds from the Father and is wworshiped and glorified together, with the Father and the Son. He inspired the Scriptures, empowers Gods people, and convicts the world "of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement" (John 16:8).

All three Persons of the Godhead are eternal. The Father exists and has existed forever. With Him always existed His expression, the Son. Always the Father loved the Son, and the Son loved and served the Father. From that relationship of love exists the Spirit of God, who is eternal and has existed forever. The Father did not exist first, then later the Son, and still later the Spirit. They all three have existed from before there was anything that could begin--three distinct Persons all functioning as One. Upon the occasion of Jesus' baptism, all three Persons in the Trinity were present and active. The Father spoke from heaven, the Son was fulfilling all righteousness, and the Spirit descended upon the Son like a dove (Matt 3:16,17).

The existence of the Trinity is a mystery that one day we will understand clearly. For now, we know that the Bible teaches it and Jesus revealed it, and the Christian church from the beginning has confessed and safeguarded this precious truth. (1 Cor 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Ep. 4:4-6; 2 Thess 2:13,14).

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[The Gregorian]

Trinitarian doctrine holds that, in fact, the Father and the Son are distinct persons who have the same essense. An analogy is a family. My children are all equally members of the Grey family. My children and I are equally Grey. Nevertheless, we are distinct and have different functions.

The confusion comes in when we say "God", we typically mean, "God, the Father". You might say God is the family name. Thus, God-up-in-heaven and God-down-here-on-Earth are not necessarily in conflict.

As to greater: in a marriage, Christians often say the man is the head of the household. This does not mean that the wife is not equal to the husband. In human life, we will not always agree ... someone has to make the decision.

It could be said that the Godhead is similar -- except that the Father and Son will never be in conflict, to the best of our understanding.

So, "Greater" is positional.

So then the trinity holds God and his son as seperate creatures of the same nature, not the actual same being? that correct?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yes, I think so.

But, you must understand that while Chrisitianity as a whole (as defined by the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed) believe in the Trinity, the exact nature of the Trinity is debated.

Some say that they are 3 distinct persons of three distinct essenses. Others (more common, I think) say as I said above, God is 3 distinct persons of one essense.

Some number of centuries ago, there was a dispute among those that espouse 3 persons/one essense. The dispute was whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father, or from both the Father and the Son. (See here: Filioque.)

To me, this dispute smacks of hubris. If God hasn't bothered to define himself, it is rather presumptuous of us to define him. *shrug*

The unitarian type sects (defined for purposes of the Christian Forums as "Other" Christians) do not believe in a Trinity.

IMHO, you might address your question about to whom did Jesus pray in the Garden.

So with the note above about the ongoing debate, your wording "not the actual same being" might cause some to respond "NO! They are the actual same being, they are just 3 distinct persons!"

Then, when you indicate your confusion, the response you will get will be along the lines of "Its a mystery."

I am a Christian, but as to the formulation of the Trinity, you might say I'm agnostic. I won't presume upon God.

HTH

Tinker

 

[The Gregorian]

nice nice. Yea, I actually agree with you... no fun to argue with someone you agree with .

 

[Tinker Grey]

Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Yes, I think so.

But, you must understand that while Chrisitianity as a whole (as defined by the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed) believe in the Trinity, the exact nature of the Trinity is debated.

Some say that they are 3 distinct persons of three distinct essenses. Others (more common, I think) say as I said above, God is 3 distinct persons of one essense.

Some number of centuries ago, there was a dispute among those that espouse 3 persons/one essense. The dispute was whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from just the Father, or from both the Father and the Son. (See here: Filioque.)

To me, this dispute smacks of hubris. If God hasn't bothered to define himself, it is rather presumptuous of us to define him. *shrug*

The unitarian type sects (defined for purposes of the Christian Forums as "Other" Christians) do not believe in a Trinity.

IMHO, you might address your question about to whom did Jesus pray in the Garden.

So with the note above about the ongoing debate, your wording "not the actual same being" might cause some to respond "NO! They are the actual same being, they are just 3 distinct persons!"

Then, when you indicate your confusion, the response you will get will be along the lines of "Its a mystery."

I am a Christian, but as to the formulation of the Trinity, you might say I'm agnostic. I won't presume upon God.

HTH

Tinker

That was very well said Tinker. Rather than using the term "Trinity" I think the word "Godhead" is a better term to use.

 

[drstevej]

Trinitarian doctrine holds that, in fact, the Father and the Son are distinct persons who have the same essense. An analogy is a family. My children are all equally members of the Grey family. My children and I are equally Grey. Nevertheless, we are distinct and have different functions.

The confusion comes in when we say "God", we typically mean, "God, the Father". You might say God is the family name. Thus, God-up-in-heaven and God-down-here-on-Earth are not necessarily in conflict.

As to greater: in a marriage, Christians often say the man is the head of the household. This does not mean that the wife is not equal to the husband. In human life, we will not always agree ... someone has to make the decision.

It could be said that the Godhead is similar -- except that the Father and Son will never be in conflict, to the best of our understanding.

So, "Greater" is positional.

YMMV.

Tinker

Well said, Tinker.

Absolute equality does not preclude positional subordination.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thank you for your kind words, drstevej and repentandbelieve.

 

[The Gregorian]

wow... this thread is going completley different than another one I'm in.

first: yea, I can definitely accept that the Father and Son are the same type of being, that they work together... similar to a married couple (in some ways) but just notthe "SAME" being as per some people:

Jesus is YHWH GOD......I NEVER SAID JESUS WAS HIS OWN FATHER. JESUS HAS A GOD BECAUSE HE BECAME HUMAN.

Strong in Him]There is only one God. He is Father, he is Son and he is Holy Spirit.

can someone explain how these two match up with 1 Corinthians 8:6?

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him.

how can there be only one God, the Father, yet Jesus is that, but he's not his own father, but he is God as liljon put it?
[/font]

 

[LittleNipper]

wow... this thread is going completley different than another one I'm in.

first: yea, I can definitely accept that the Father and Son are the same type of being, that they work together... similar to a married couple (in some ways) but just notthe "SAME" being as per some people:




can someone explain how these two match up with 1 Corinthians 8:6?



how can there be only one God, the Father, yet Jesus is that, but he's not his own father, but he is God as liljon put it?
[/size][/font]

The ABSOLUTNESS and FORM of GOD is a Mystery. We go round and round with this trinity issue. The fact is GOD is not human. Somehow an interactive portion of GOD was able to become human. GOD is an essence and eternally exists as 3 entities. Each entity is mysteriously connected and interactive with the other 2 entities. These three are so perfectly joined that they are one. Jesus, in taking on a human form had to subjugate to the will of at least one of the other entities. Jesus in human form laid asside the right HE possed to know everything. The fact is that while Jesus walked the earth, Jesus eluded to the fact that HE was subject to the will of HIS FATHER. A triangle exists because it has three sides. Take a side away and it is no longer a triangle. GOD is 3 and will always be three. Three is what GOD is. GOD is not human. GOD is not angel. GOD is not a created being of any sort. Yet, GOD was able to take on human mortality to accomplish HIS GOALS for HIS GLORY and HE did this by sending the entity CHRIST to come to earth as a human with a spirit.

 

[The Gregorian]

The ABSOLUTNESS and FORM of GOD is a Mystery. We go round and round with this trinity issue. The fact is GOD is not human. Somehow an interactive portion of GOD was able to become human. GOD is an essence and eternally exists as 3 entities. Each entity is mysteriously connected and interactive with the other 2 entities. These three are so perfectly joined that they are one. Jesus, in taking on a human form had to subjugate to the will of at least one of the other entities. Jesus in human form laid asside the right HE possed to know everything. The fact is that while Jesus walked the earth, Jesus eluded to the fact that HE was subject to the will of HIS FATHER. A triangle exists because it has three sides. Take a side away and it is no longer a triangle. GOD is 3 and will always be three. Three is what GOD is. GOD is not human. GOD is not angel. GOD is not a created being of any sort. Yet, GOD was able to take on human mortality to accomplish HIS GOALS for HIS GLORY and HE did this by sending the entity CHRIST to come to earth as a human with a spirit.

... "GOD is 3 and will always be three. Three is what GOD is."

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

There is for us only one God, the Father

[/font]

that's a direct contradiction. The bible clearly states, Jesus is not God... the Father is God... there is only one, there is not three. it specifically seperates Jesus from the father. Yes, they are connected, but they aren't 1 entity in 3 forms.

 

[LittleNipper]

... "GOD is 3 and will always be three. Three is what GOD is."



that's a direct contradiction. The bible clearly states, Jesus is not God... the Father is God... there is only one, there is not three. it specifically seperates Jesus from the father. Yes, they are connected, but they aren't 1 entity in 3 forms.

BUT TO US ONE GOD----THE FATHER OF WHOM ALL THINGS ARE AND WE IN HIM AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ALL THINGS EXIST AND WE BY HIM.

This verse is actually saying that the Father and Christ did the exact same thing making them ONE GOD.

 

[The Gregorian]

read it carefully:

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]There is for us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we have our being through him.

[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]note... it doesn't say 'there is one God, the Father ... and Jesus Christ...' it doesn't say they are both one God... it specifically says "there is one God, the father and one Lord, Jesus Christ." This means they are two specific different jobs... neither of them can switch places... The Father is God, Jesus is not God. Jesus is Lord, a title that God, the Father, is above. Yes... Jesus is God's greatest servant, and therefore has been given a GREAT title, and a great amount of respect and glory.... but no master will make a servant equal to him no matter how much the servant does for him... otherwise he wouldn't be a servant.

Because Jesus has been given some glory (in this case a great amount), does NOT mean that God is giving up his glory by making his son his equal.

Again... When Jesus says he's going to sit at the right hand of God... he is sitting at the right hand.... not in God's seat.
[/font]

 

[Simonline]

Read these verses. I'll keep it to only two verses... the first one just to explain the second one... can someone PLEASE tell me how these verses allow for "the trinity" to exist?

point 1:
Mt. 3:11 "Truly, I give baptism with water to those of you whose hearts are changed; but he who comes after me is greater than I, whose shoes I am not good enough to take up: he will give you baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire:"

This shows Jesus to be greater than John the Baptist. i.e. the words "(person A) is greater than (person B)" in the bible actually mean that one person is not only not also the other person, but also greater than the other person.
-----
Point 2:
Joh 14:28
Keep in mind how I said to you, I go away and come to you again. If you had love for me you would be glad, because I am going to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

First this shows Jesus was going TO the father, not going to BECOME the father. Second... just as Jesus is greater than John, it says "The father is greater than I."

It might be said that Jesus is the Father... but while on earth he humbled himself... but if he was the father the father would be just as humbled. You can't be more humble than yourself. That aside, he says "the father is greater than I" ... indicating the father exists at the same time he does... not "the father was/will be greater than I." therefore Jesus couldn't be God in human form because God was still in heaven... being greater than his son.

I kept it down to two verses... can someone please explain to me.... why is it... Jesus... repeatedly says "The father is greater than I" yet we assume Jesus is lying and take it to mean the exact opposit, "the father is NOT greater than I." What am I not seeing in this verse that would allow for God not to be greater than his son when his son specifically said that God was greater than him?

What you are missing is the hypostatic union. The Messiah has two natures, one Infinite Divine Creator, the other finite human creature. When the Messiah says 'The Father is greater than I' (Jn.14:28) he is referring exclusively to his [created] finite human nature, in which case, the Father, as Infinite Divine Creator, would obviously be greater than the finite human creature (the man, Jesus of Nazareth). The corollory to this is Jn.10:30 where the Messiah says 'I and the Father are one'. Unlike Jn.14:28 where the Messiah is referring exclusively to his human nature, in this verse the Messiah is referring exclusively to his Divine Nature, which, like the Father, is Infinite Divine Creator (the Eternally begotten Son/Word of God - the second Person of the Trinity). Since God is exclusively ONE BEING (Deut.6:4), the Messiah is here declaring himself to be Divine as well as human. That this is understood by his hearers is evidenced by their response to his statement in picking up stones to stone him to death for blasphemy (Jn.10:31-33).

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Trinitarian doctrine holds that, in fact, the Father and the Son are distinct persons who have the same essense. An analogy is a family. My children are all equally members of the Grey family. My children and I are equally Grey. Nevertheless, we are distinct and have different functions.

The confusion comes in when we say "God", we typically mean, "God, the Father". You might say God is the family name. Thus, God-up-in-heaven and God-down-here-on-Earth are not necessarily in conflict.

As to greater: in a marriage, Christians often say the man is the head of the household. This does not mean that the wife is not equal to the husband. In human life, we will not always agree ... someone has to make the decision.

It could be said that the Godhead is similar -- except that the Father and Son will never be in conflict, to the best of our understanding.

So, "Greater" is positional.

YMMV.

Tinker

Tinker, like all analogies used to describe God, this one is also a bad one. God is THREE PERSONS WITHIN THE ONE BEING.

Your family are multiple beings united by familial ties. That is not the case with God. There is no conflict within God because, whilst he is ONE BEING, he is not schizophrenic. God is not a 'family' or association of independent beings united by familial or any other ties for that matter. God is ONE Being.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

So then the trinity holds God and his son as seperate creatures of the same nature, not the actual same being? that correct?

Absolutely not, since God, as the Creator, cannot possibly be a creature by any stretch of the imagination.

God is ONE BEING who also happens to be THREE PERSONS - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - none of whom are created beings.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Yes, I think so.

But, you must understand that while Chrisitianity as a whole (as defined by the Nicene Creed or the Apostle's Creed) believe in the Trinity, the exact nature of the Trinity is debated.

Not really. The debate is not so much about the nature of the Trinity (except perhaps the debate between Western Christianity and Eastern Christianity as to whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or the Father and the Son together) as between a Trinitarian understanding of God versus a Unitarian understanding of God (the view held by traditional Judaism, Islam, Unitarianism, Arians, Gnostics, etc.)

Some say that they are 3 distinct persons of three distinct essenses. Others (more common, I think) say as I said above, God is 3 distinct persons of one essense.

In which case the first group would be polytheists believing in the existence of multiple divine beings, whilst the second group would be Trinitarians in the Biblical sense of the word. What you said above is what the first group believe, namely, separate and distinct beings united by [familial] ties. That is not the Biblical understanding of Trinity.

The unitarian type sects (defined for purposes of the Christian Forums as "Other" Christians) do not believe in a Trinity.

A misnomer if ever there was one since the orthodox Christian faith is Trinitarian in nature (in accordance with the revelation of God concerning himself as revealed in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures). Those who do not hold to the Trinitarian understanding of God cannot, in all honesty, call themselves Christian. To concede the term Christian to those who hold views at variance with the orthodox Christian faith is effectively to empty the term of any and all meaning thereby rendering it completely meaningless.

IMHO, you might address your question about to whom did Jesus pray in the Garden.

And the answer would be...to the Father, of course (Jn.14:28) but this does not negate the fact that the Father and the Son are still one Being (Jn.10:30). The Messiah, as finite human creature, was praying to his God (the Father) as Infinite Divine Creator. The fact that the Messiah is also Infinite Divine Creator does not alter the need for the finite human creature to pray to his Infinite Divine Creator. Of course, the finite human creature (the man, Jesus of Nazareth) could not possibly pray to himself as Infinite Divine Creator (the eternally begotten Son/Word of God - the second Person of the Trinity) since, as both natures have been combined into the ONE PERSON of the Messiah (i.e. the hypostatic union), such an idea would be absurd in the extreme. Nevertheless, the finite human creature still needs to pray to his Infinite Divine Creator, so he directs his prayers to the one who eternally begets him - the Father, who is greater than the finite human creature, who is the Messiah (Jn.14:28).

So with the note above about the ongoing debate, your wording "not the actual same being" might cause some to respond "NO! They are the actual same being, they are just 3 distinct persons!"

Then, when you indicate your confusion, the response you will get will be along the lines of "Its a mystery."

I am a Christian, but as to the formulation of the Trinity, you might say I'm agnostic. I won't presume upon God.

HTH

Tinker

There is no presumption in the doctrine of the Trinity. It is the means by which the Church has sought to encapsulate the full revelation of the Nature of God that He has revealed [piecemeal] to Mankind throughout the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

That was very well said Tinker. Rather than using the term "Trinity" I think the word "Godhead" is a better term to use.

Not at all, since the term 'Godhead' is far more ambiguous and open to manipulation [abuse?] than the definitive term 'Trinity'.

Simonline.