Trinity is wrong.

[Messiahist]

Part 1.

1st Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints.

Athanasian Creed, The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.”

Against Praxeas 9 [A.D. 216], Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are inseparable from each other.”

Against Praxeas 25 [A.D. 216], These three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] are, one essence, not one person.”

Dogmatic Letter on the Trinity 8:2 [A.D. 381], To those who accuse us of a doctrine of three Gods, let it be stated that we confess one God, not in number but in nature.”

Question; Is the Father 33.3% [1/3] or is he 100% [3/3]? And is the Son 33.3% [1/3] or is he 100% [3/3]? And is the Holy Spirit 33.3% [1/3] or is he 100% [3/3]? We cannot have three parts who are all 100% since we come up to 300%.”

Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225], God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind.”

Treasury of the holy Trinity 11 [A.D. 424], The nature of the Godhead, which is simple and not composite, is never to be divided into two.”

Question; How do you have three in one?”

The Trinity doctrine is very confusing, for it states that three are one and one is three and yet one is not three and three is not one”.

To force a choice upon us between accepting Yehoshua HaMoshiach [ben David] as a lunatic, liar, or the Eternal God himself cleverly diverts us from the truth about his real identity.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 2.

Trinitarians will often use multiplication as an example for the Trinity doctrine, and yet they do not see their error in doing this example. In order to use 1 x 1 [repeating the same source] we will need to say that the Trinity doctrine teaches all three persons are the Father for 1 x 1 x 1 [repeating the same source, in this case repeating the Father], or that the Trinity doctrine teaches all three persons are the Son for 1 x 1 x 1 [repeating the same source, in this case repeating the Son], or that the Trinity doctrine teaches all three persons are the Holy Spirit for 1 x 1 x 1 [repeating the same source, in this case repeating the Holy Spirit]. We cannot use different sources [Father is not Son, Son is not Holy Spirit, and Holy Spirit is not Father] with multiplication, for if we do this we it will be a mathematical violation.

We do not refuse to accept any doctrine which we cannot fully explain. But mystery and contradiction are two different things. It will be like saying 1 + 1 = 7, it's a mystery, so accept it with faith, and yet this is not a mystery but a contradiction, such as we have with the Trinity doctrine.

We have found it very odd that no Trinitarian can explain what they mean by person, in fact, they get nerves and call one a heretic for questioning the Trinity doctrine. We have been called more than heretics, and to just name a few; Deceiver, Satan's Agent, Stupid Idiot, Moron, Lost Soul, and many other things we do not want to mention. But let us state that we truly are all of these in the eyes of Trinitarians and Modalists, and we do not deny it. But we in the eyes of the Eternal God (blessed is he) we are messengers of truth which the scriptures teach. Therefore, we do not get offended by the majority, after all their doctrines are very anti-scriptural.

We do confess that there are hints of a Trinity and of a Modalism in the scriptures, but that is all it is, nothing but hints which are contradictions when applied to the whole message of the scriptures. But there is also hints of UFOs and alians in the Bible, does that make it true? No.

Singular personal pronouns inform us that the Eternal God who is one is definitely a who. To make him into three who's demonstrably violates the consistent testimony of the scriptures. The Tanakh (O.T.) and Brit Chadashah (N.T.) contain well over twenty thousand singular pronouns and verbs describing the One God who is One. Language has no clearer or more obvious way of providing a testimony to Yisraels and Yehoshuas unitary monotheism.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 3.

Question; Where in the scriptures is the Eternal God called a they or a them as Trinitarians do when explaining their Trinity doctrine?
Question; If, we repeat, if the scriptures teach of a Trinity doctrine, then why was and is there so many debates against the Trinity doctrine?
Question; If, we repeat, if the Trinity doctrine is in the Tanakh, then why for so many thousands of years have the Jewish people been anti-Trinitarian?

We are sometimes speechless to see Trinitarians go to such extreme limits to try to prove a God (Triune) that does not exist.

Let us quote two examples the Trinitarian use to explain their Trinity doctrine.

1. God is like an egg, which contains yoke, white, and shell.
2. God is like H2o, which has forms as liquid, steam, and ice.

The egg example is quite an impressive one until examined more closely. An egg is made of three substances [yoke, white, and shell] while in the Trinity doctrine, God is one substance.

The H2o example seems more impressive than the egg example until examined more closely. This is Modalism; one person taking three roles”.

Question; Where in the scriptures do we see anyone talking about one God who is three in one?

We would like to ask the Trinitarians to come up with a logical example that works for the doctrine so then we can expose it also.

 

[DiChaeraig]

I'm interested in what you have to say. What do you know about the Coptic Orthodox Church or the Assyrian Church? What about medieval heresies like Adoptionism, Arianism, and Nestorian (ism?).

 

[Messiahist]

Part 4.

RCC scholar Thomas Hart, Yehoshua is called a man in the generic sense, but not a man. He has a human nature but is not a human person. The person in him is the second person of the blessed Trinity. Yehoshua does not have human personal center. This is how the Council [of Chalcedon] gets around the problem of a split personality.”

We have noticed that those who gave birth to the Trinity doctrine [which were not the Apostles of scriptures] have given birth to such a fantasy cult that it blows the minds of the best scientists.

Let us ask the Trinitarian believers 21 questions about their doctrine, and we are aware that some of the questions may appear to be the same, but let's not let it bother us, for these 21 questions are designed to make one think. Before we give the 21 questions we would like to ask the Trinitarian believers that they would not use the ejection button they call mystery”.

1. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance?
2. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance what makes the Father distinct from the Son, and the Son distinct from the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit distinct from the Father?
3. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance, what makes that one substance to be three persons [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]?
4. How is it that we have three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] that are one, and yet one that is not three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]?
5. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one Spirit, and yet each person is a Spirit?
6. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one Mind, and yet each person thinks for themselves?
7. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit [if they are all one substance] all have one Will (Mark 14:36)?
8. Does God have one personality or does he have three personalities [M.P.D.]?
9. When the statement is made by a Trinitarian three in one, what is this one that they are in? A body [contained]?
10. Is the Father more Mighty than the Son?
11. Can the Son get any less Mighty than the Father?
12. Has the Father and the Son always stated on the same level of Might with each other?
13. Why in Psalms 110:1 did the Father [YHVH, Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey] tell the Son [master] to have All power of the Eternal God [Right Hand of God] if the Father and the Son are on the same level of Might and have maintained the same level of Might?
14. Does the Father have more Authority than the Son?
15. Can the Son have less Authority than the Father?
16. Has the Father and the Son always stayed on the same level of Authority with each other?
17. Why in Matthew 28:18 does the Son say that All Authority has been given to him, and who gave it to him?
18. Why in Matthew 20:20-23 does the Son say that to sit at the right and left hand of him is not his to grant?
19. Can the Father receive a Revelation?
20. Can the Son receive a Revelation?
21. Why in Revelation 1:1 does Apostle John say “The revelation of Yehoshua Moshiach [Yehoshua Messiah], which God gave him?

We would like to ask all the Trinitarians readers which have given honest answers to these questions to please post their answers on our message board where we can discuss the answers.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 5.

When the very foundation of a religion is changed, some clear explanation is required. Such drastic theological revolutions do not pass unnoticed; witness the volumes written and the sometimes bloody controversy waged by advocates of the Trinity against the protests of the strict Unitarians. A divine revelation to introduce belief in tripersonal God would have been acceptable and reasonable. But where both revelation is lacking and reason assaulted, there is little basis for accepting such an extraordinary idea as the Trinity.

Thomas Jefferson, “The Trinity doctrine is relapse from the true religion Yehoshua founded in the unity of God into unintelligent polytheism.”

Jared Sparks, “The Trinity doctrine is hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus [the three-headed dog in Greek mythology who guarded the gates to Hades], with one body and three heads.”

L.W. Grensted, “The heritage from philosophy came in more insidiously. In the second century we find Justin Martyr and others proclaiming Christianity as a philosophy of the schools…The logos of Stoicism is identified with the logos of John. The growing web of fantasy still remained a very deal danger, and so remains to this present day. Meanwhile, and most serious of all, a radical confusion had fallen upon the doctrine of God.”

It is clear that reasonable people cannot accept such contradiction as the Trinity doctrine.

 

[Messiahist]

Part 6.

It is plain to for everyone to see, the Apostles never taught the doctrine of the Trinity. They didn’t say that God is three [persons], they didn’t say that Jesus is God the Son, they didn’t say God the Holy Spirit, they don’t call God a They, etc. The doctrine of the Trinity took many, many years to develop after the deaths of the twelve Apostles, and Apostle Paul. In the Book of Acts, Jesus is presented as God’s Son, not as the Father or as God the Son.

Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is a heresy as much as the doctrine of Modalism/Oneness. So, the real Orthodox, that the Apostles taught in the NT, was that there is one God who is one (the Father alone), that he had a Son (Jesus), that he had many angels, and that he had a Holy Spirit.

 

[Messiahist]

I'm interested in what you have to say. What do you know about the Coptic Orthodox Church or the Assyrian Church? What about medieval heresies like Adoptionism, Arianism, and Nestorian (ism?).

I think they're all wrong in their views of God, God's Spirit, and God's Son. I don't know why, but many just focus on these two and not on the God's angels who would present God's message, represent God, and even are called ELOHIM/THEOI.

 

[DaveJoel]

Part 3.

Question; Where in the scriptures is the Eternal God called a they or a them as Trinitarians do when explaining their Trinity doctrine?

You are correct.. no where in the bible is there a word "trinity".. although all throughout the bible, scripture reveals God to be 3 and 1.

The bible refers the Father as God, Jesus to be God, and the Holy Spirit to be God, all in separate passages.

There are also many scriptures which speak of God as 3..
As we look to the old Testament, God refers to Himself as an "Us"..

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.."


Gen 3:22 -Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us...


Is 6:8 -Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”

Question; Where in the scriptures do we see anyone talking about one God who is three in one?

Some scripture references to look at..

Matt 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 3:13-17

John 14:15-23
Acts 2:32-33
2 Cor 13:14 -The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph 1:1-14
Eph 3:14-19
1 Pet 1:2

These scriptures reveal God to be 3 as distinct but also 1...

Just some things to think about

 

[Albion]

You are correct.. no where in the bible is there a word "trinity".. although all throughout the bible, scripture reveals God to be 3 and 1.

The bible refers the Father as God, Jesus to be God, and the Holy Spirit to be God, all in separate passages.

There are also many scriptures which speak of God as 3..
As we look to the old Testament, God refers to Himself as an "Us"..

Gen 1:26 - Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.."


Gen 3:22 -Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us...


Is 6:8 -Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?”





Some scripture references to look at..

Matt 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 3:13-17

John 14:15-23
Acts 2:32-33
2 Cor 13:14 -The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph 1:1-14
Eph 3:14-19
1 Pet 1:2

These scriptures reveal God to be 3 as distinct but also 1...

Just some things to think about

You have explained all that was not understood by the author of the previous posts. Well done...and I hope that any responses which come are directed at what you've laid out here rather than going off on some irrelevant comments by Thomas Jefferson or guesses at what the Apostles might have said or not said, etc..

 

[Gareth]

I think the theory of the Trinity can be talked about until the cows come home, take a bath, put on their slippers and sit by a nice warm fire with a mug of cocoa. The fact that the Jews have never thought of God as a trinity with all the scriptual verses quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures already to try and prove a non-existant Trinity is most telling. Apart from Christianity, Judaism has had a long relationship with God as His special people. If God is indeed a triune deity he would of said so right from early on, and would of corrected the Jews should they of thought otherwise by means of His many prophets over time.

Then in the Christian Greek Scriptures there would of been no dispute with the Trinity. It would of been fact. Yet this is not so. We have to wait a few centuries before the formulation of the doctrine as a duality before the final trinity became the established doctrine of the mystery of God for many but not all. In those years after the death of Jesus, his Disciples and others many false teachings crept into the faith. If the Trinity theory was not a theory at all then the whole Bible would be full of it's existence. We would know the name of the Father (which we do), the name of the Son (which we do) and the name of the holy spirit (anyone take a guess??). The spirit is nameless yet if part of a triune deity it would have a name. Further like the Father, the Son would of had existed for eternity and like the Father would of been immortal. Yet the Son died on the earth for mankind. How can an immortal die? And for lowly mankind? And just where does Satan come into all this? Or is he a made up character.

The simple fact is people will differ in their concepts of God. For me the Trinity is a man-made theory based heavily on Greek/Roman religious philosophy. The fact that those who believe in it cannot explain it easily is telling. The fact that the Jews do not accept it is telling. The fact that Jesus never said he was Almighty God and that time and again said he was inferior to his Father and that he didn't know when the end of the world was coming is telling. That the writers of the New Testament did not elude to it or mention it by it's title is telling. That actually it only came about many years later when many of the ancient civilisations already had their own trinities is telling. So is the Trinity a true doctrine? The evidence, history and scripture seem to suggest, no.

 

[Albion]

I think the theory of the Trinity can be talked about until the cows come home, take a bath, put on their slippers and sit by a nice warm fire with a mug of cocoa. The fact that the Jews have never thought of God as a trinity with all the scriptual verses quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures already to try and prove a non-existant Trinity is most telling. Apart from Christianity, Judaism has had a long relationship with God as His special people.

It's not that simple. We can take the position of Judaism and say that the Christians are all wrong, period. But if we take the Christian position, we have an answer to the problem. From both history and Scripture we know taht the Jewish theological ideas evolved. Do not talk as though they were always exactly the same as at every other point in their history as to what they believed about the nature of God, because that's not correct. So if we admit that they were being led by God into a fuller and fuller appreciation of him, then there is no reason to dismiss out of hand the Christian New Testament which clearly shows Christ taking the basic Hebrew beliefs and burnishing them in many respects. He did not deny the Old Testament but he certainly did put Hebrew understandings into a new persective. He absolutely dashed their thinking about what the Messiah was all about, you remember, and that is part of the understanding of God himself.

If God is indeed a triune deity he would of said so right from early on,

That's what you would have done if you were God, huh? What else would any of us have done differently, I wonder, if we were God. Save everyone? Banish all evil and hurt in the world? We simply cannot say that God ought to do have done things this way and not another way.

and would of corrected the Jews should they of thought otherwise by means of His many prophets over time.

Do you tell a three year old exactly what you'd tell a teen when it comes to sex, death, or other such matters? Why not? Are you just a liar then?

Then in the Christian Greek Scriptures there would of been no dispute with the Trinity.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures there isn't much dispute. There was a dispute by people who READ them. But that's a different matter.

In those years after the death of Jesus, his Disciples and others many false teachings crept into the faith. If the Trinity theory was not a theory at all then the whole Bible would be full of it's existence. We would know the name of the Father (which we do), the name of the Son (which we do) and the name of the holy spirit (anyone take a guess??). The spirit is nameless yet if part of a triune deity it would have a name.

There's really no reason why God has to supply answers to everything humans can think up like that.

Further like the Father, the Son would of had existed for eternity and like the Father would of been immortal. Yet the Son died on the earth for mankind. How can an immortal die? And for lowly mankind? And just where does Satan come into all this? Or is he a made up character.

There are answers for all of that. But because you aren't more aware of Christian theology I can see why the starting point--God himself--also poses problems for you that don't exist for those who have studied the faith and its teachings. I'm not much on machinery, so this discussion sounds to me a lot like me saying that I just don't see why internal combusion machines need to be so complicated. Why valves? Why don't they just make a battery that can push wheels at 60 miles an hour without any of that carburetor stuff? But to a mechanic, I'm sure the whole matter looks different.

The simple fact is people will differ in their concepts of God. For me the Trinity is a man-made theory based heavily on Greek/Roman religious philosophy.

And I support you in that. But that doesn't make Christianity wrong, does it? You see things one way and I'm happy for you. I see them this way, and that doesn't make me wrong.

The fact that those who believe in it cannot explain it easily is telling.

Well, you know that this is not easy stuff. That does not make it wrong. Not eveyone understands immunizations, but doctors do. We are not called to be theologians but believers. To the extent that Christians engage in theological discussions and leave you unsatisfied, that's no different from the fact that we don't agree on the football bowl selections. The point is that the faith is not faulty merely because ordinary people are not experts in it--theologians. And, BTW, there ARE many on CF who can do an excellent job of explaining the religion, even though I do not doubt that you know Christians who can't.

The fact that the Jews do not accept it is telling.

I believe I covered that.

The fact that Jesus never said he was Almighty God and that time and again said he was inferior to his Father and that he didn't know when the end of the world was coming is telling.

Actually, all of that is wrong. Jesus did claim to be God. He did not claim to be inferior to the Father EXCEPT in a certain context, and He did not say that he didn't know when the end would come. In fact, he spoke as though he had it well in mind.

That the writers of the New Testament did not elude to it or mention it by it's title is telling.

No it isn't. There's nothing special about the title/term, but the concept is right there in scripture, as was said by another poster. They did, IOW, refer to it.

That actually it only came about many years later when many of the ancient civilisations already had their own trinities is telling. So is the Trinity a true doctrine. The evidence, history and scripture seem to suggest, no.

On the contrary, those other religions had their trinities long BEFORE Christianity, so perhaps you want to adjust your denunciation. And it's only the EXPLANATION of how the persons of the Trinity relate that came later, so to end division among believers. It's not as though the idea was a new one at that time. In fact, the council that made the Trinitarian statement so famous now did it only because there was disagreement. Get it? Had some not already believed in the multiple persona of God there would not have been any disagreement for the council to settle.

 

[DaveJoel]

You have explained all that was not understood by the author of the previous posts. Well done...and I hope that any responses which come are directed at what you've laid out here rather than going off on some irrelevant comments by Thomas Jefferson or guesses at what the Apostles might have said or not said, etc..

Im really not sure if your being sarcastic on sincere when you say "well done" etc?

I ofcourse did not respond to everything Messiahist said, rather just one part which I had some understanding of.

Sweet

 

[Gareth]

[quote=Albion;4953592


"There are answers for all of that. But because you aren't more aware of Christian theology I can see why the starting point--God himself--also poses problems for you that don't exist for those who have studied the faith and its teachings. I'm not much on machinery, so this discussion sounds to me a lot like me saying that I just don't see why internal combusion machines need to be so complicated. Why valves? Why don't they just make a battery that can push wheels at 60 miles an hour without any of that carburetor stuff? But to a mechanic, I'm sure the whole matter looks different."

In short I think your answers are bunkum. However I want you to prove to me an immortal being can die, be raised up and continue to exist. Scriptually.

On second thoughts, don't bother. There is nothing in this world or the one to come that will make me change my understanding about God.

 

[Clifford B]

Because "us" is used in Genesis does not infer, nor require a trinity or duality of being.

For example, Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge. He learned from the OT. He said that it speaks of him. A perfectly sensible view would be that his father is writing to his son...in the future.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.



Note that God DID NOT create man in his LIKENESS. Read carefully. It was Jesus job, through obedience, to the word to create a model for men to follow that we may be LIKE him.

God in foreknowledge always knew what Jesus would do. All creation was planned around it. Jesus was the reason for creation. He did not have to pre-exist....only the idea of him was in God's heart.

 

[gort]

Because "us" is used in Genesis does not infer, nor require a trinity or duality of being.

For example, Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge. He learned from the OT. He said that it speaks of him. A perfectly sensible view would be that his father is writing to his son...in the future.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.



Note that God DID NOT create man in his LIKENESS. Read carefully. It was Jesus job, through obedience, to the word to create a model for men to follow that we may be LIKE him.

God in foreknowledge always knew what Jesus would do. All creation was planned around it. Jesus was the reason for creation. He did not have to pre-exist....only the idea of him was in God's heart.

Then who does "us" refer to in the creation man? "Us' is not singular, it is plural. One of the "us" refers to God, and the scriptures plainly say that "God created man...", so who/what else is referred to?

 

[2ducklow]

Gen. 1.26 is prophetic apostrophe. Prophetic in that it tells what God and Jesus will do which is make man in their image, and apostrophe in that god is speaking to Jesus who is not there, just as when God said to Jesus 1000 years before he was born. "this day have I begotten thee.''. Or when God spoke to Cyrus the king hundreds of years before he was born.

Gen. 1.26 says nothing about creation, it speaks of making not creating. Gen. 1.27 speaks of creation. It is an almost universal error that almost every christian makes in trying to understand gen.1.26. Namely reading make to mean create.

 

[Clifford B]

I believe has more weigh than a trinity, as "us" can easily be prophetic..."you and me"...with God talking to his son, Jesus, in the future. Remember that Jesus learned the scriptures. He grew in favor with God and man...
So, God says, "let us make man in our image and likeness"...the God made man in his image....no likeness. That was up to Jesus to accomplish by his example.

Cliff

 

[ContraMundum]

The Trinity doctrine is very confusing.

Doesn't confuse me.

Just because you personally find it confusing doesn't make it wrong. All that it logically means it that you are confused about something.

 

[Clifford B]

then you are not paying attention.
1. Which trinity do you believe?
2. How can anything be two different things?
3. How can a being that cannot change, then change and die, but not really?

And that is just the start....