Trinity.... I am getting a mixed message

[Debi1967]

I thought that the Trinity taught the way I was thinking and corect me if I am wrong that all were ONE just essences of the one. Umm take for example We all have different sides to our personality but those different sides make up the ONE being the individual. Meaning there is no separation. There may be a distinction between states of essences but it is still the same ONE. Am I correct in this????? HELP

 

[raptor13]

think of it this way.

Time is one thing. There is only ONE Time.

But Time is THREE things: Past, Present, Future.

Past is separate from the Present and Future.
Present is separate from Past and Future.
Future is separate from Present and Past.

But although each is indivisible from the other, each is also separate and distinct, and all are Time.

THe point of all this: Replace 'Past' with 'The Father', 'Present' with 'The Son', 'Future' with 'Holy Spirit', and 'Time' with 'God.'

Does that make sense?

 

[Debi1967]

think of it this way.

Time is one thing. There is only ONE Time.

But Time is THREE things: Past, Present, Future.

Past is separate from the Present and Future.
Present is separate from Past and Future.
Future is separate from Present and Past.

But although each is indivisible from the other, each is also separate and distinct, and all are Time.

THe point of all this: Replace 'Past' with 'The Father', 'Present' with 'The Son', 'Future' with 'Holy Spirit', and 'Time' with 'God.'

Does that make sense?

But that is what I just said. I only said it with a personality analogy. So then I am right they are just distinctions of the ONE.

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity". 83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God." 84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature." 85



254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." 86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." 87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." 88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance." 89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship." 90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son." 91

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:

Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendour. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . 92​

 

[Debi1967]

Ok I had someone that was Catholic liken it and explain it as Tri Une that is why I am asking. Because it sounded way too much like my Mother and the JWs and their teachings of separation.

 

[Debi1967]

Ok but then why does it in the apocolypse capter 1 then 22 refer to the Almighty as the Alpha and the Omega and then Jesus refers to Himself as the Alpha and the Omega as well Now I am totally confused.....

 

[Polycarp1]

I sympathize, Debi -- it is a truly tough doctrine to try to wrap one's mind around, and the worst of it is that any metaphor we use (H[sub]2[/sub]O exists as water, ice and water vapor; a person can be at the same time father of his children, son of his parents, and counselor to his patients; etc.), we fall short of the truth, and end up inadvertently subscribing to one of the heresies of the early Church in doing so.

But the blessed part is, we don't have to understand the intricacies of it; all we need do is believe in One God who reveals Himself in three Persons, and let Him do the work of explaining it -- our love and trust in Him is what He expects of us. I know I could write at length on the Trinity, paragraph on paragraph -- and as surely as I did, someone would point out that the examples I used leave me open to the accusation of Patripassionism, or Monothelitism, or some other heresy.

So love Him and trust Him, and accept that He knows how to be at once Three and One, even if you can't grasp how He does it!

 

[Debi1967]

I sympathize, Debi -- it is a truly tough doctrine to try to wrap one's mind around, and the worst of it is that any metaphor we use (H[sub]2[/sub]O exists as water, ice and water vapor; a person can be at the same time father of his children, son of his parents, and counselor to his patients; etc.), we fall short of the truth, and end up inadvertently subscribing to one of the heresies of the early Church in doing so.

But the blessed part is, we don't have to understand the intricacies of it; all we need do is believe in One God who reveals Himself in three Persons, and let Him do the work of explaining it -- our love and trust in Him is what He expects of us. I know I could write at length on the Trinity, paragraph on paragraph -- and as surely as I did, someone would point out that the examples I used leave me open to the accusation of Patripassionism, or Monothelitism, or some other heresy.

So love Him and trust Him, and accept that He knows how to be at once Three and One, even if you can't grasp how He does it!

I thought they were ONE. Then I did believe in Tri Une. OK so now it's sort of in between. I'm just going to do what you said and accept this as one of those mysteries I may not understand but exists. Eventually I will get it I suppose. It is neither here nor there right now.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Debi

I don't know how one can really grasp teh concept of the Trinity or say they even begin to understand it . .

One thing that one has to be careful of is to avoid "modalism" or any of its forms. . this essentially says that God will go from one "mode" to another "mode" as the needs dictate . . but that all 3 "modes" are not active at the same time . . this is much like the time analogy . .within time, the past does not exist, or is "Active" at the same time as the present or future . . so all such analogies fall short . .same with water being ice, liquid and vapor . . They can help us to understand, but they are very lacking in and of themselves because they tend to encourage this idea of "modality"

God is one - He is 3 persons in one, co-existant, co-equal, one essence . . our minds cannot wrap themselves around this . .

If I remember the story right, (and someone feel free to correct me or post the full story) St Augustine was trying to understand this, and the story goes that he was walking down the beach wrestling with this concept when he encountered a small child who was digging a hole in the sand . . I don't remember the complete story, but as it goes, the child asks him (knowing without being told) why is he struggling with this? The Child asked him if he could put the sea in the hole the Child had dug in the sand, and St Augustine of course said no . . and the Child said to him that Augustine's attempts to understand the Trinity were lilke trying to take the sea and make it fit in that small hole on the sand . .

There are not 3 separate gods . . there is one God, 3 persons, co-equal, co-existant, one essence . .

It is simply something we can only grasp through faith and accept as true . ..





Peace in Him!

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

This story is told in many forms here are two

St. Augustine had one of his greatest theological insights when walking on the seashore trying to figure out the Trinity. A little child was digging an hole in the sand. The child kept trying to fill it with sea water as children do. Of course the water would always be absorbed into the sand. St. Augustine, being a wise adult, teased the child for the foolishness of his labor. Augustine said to the child, You can never empty the sea into that little hole. The child replied, I will empty the sea into this hole before you figure out the Trinity! Then the child vanished and Augustine learned a lesson about the depth of God's majesty.

St. Augustine is one of the brightest intellectual lights Western Civilization ever produced. One day as St. Augustine was strolling along the beach, he became lost in thought while meditating on the mystery of the Holy Trinity. He walked aimlessly until he came upon a young child who had dug a little hole in the sand. With his toy bucket in hand, the youngster had begun making trips back and forth to the sea, pouring pails full of water into the hole. After watching for a while, Augustine asked the child, "What are you trying to do?" "I’m pouring the ocean into that hole," came the reply. As kindly as he could manage, Augustine explained, "But you can never do that." Whereupon the child responded, "And neither can you every fully comprehend the mystery of the Holy Trinity." According to the legend, the child disappeared from sight, because, in truth, the child was an angel.​

​

 

[Debi1967]

I will be fine as long as they are ONE. that was my main concern. And that is what threw me way off and made me run back here and ask. I just needed to reaffirm that it wasn't totally separate because that is the way it was being presented.
If someone says they believe in Tri Une they usually mean three distinct separate things and they are not One. But instead they work in conjunction with each other for the same purpose. And there is a difference because then it means 3 Gods not one or polytheism.

 

[Jason1646]

I thought they were ONE. Then I did believe in Tri Une. OK so now it's sort of in between. I'm just going to do what you said and accept this as one of those mysteries I may not understand but exists. Eventually I will get it I suppose. It is neither here nor there right now.

Greetings Debi,

Just some rambling thoughts here. First of all, by way of encouragement, I think we should expect that the very nature of the Godhead would be something past finding out. As tiny little specks of the dust, we might expect that our heads would get tied up in knots as we try to comprehend the Almighty.

Secondly, I would encourage you to think of some of the wonderful implications of the Trinity. As it has been said, we believe in one God who exists in three eternally distinct persons. This is the fountainhead of unity in plurality, which we experience through His created order in various forms (family, church, government). It also explains how it is that God could be God in all of His glorious virtues apart from His creation. His love, grace, truth, mercy, etc., all found perfect satisfaction within Himself as the all-sufficient God. His unity in plurality is the perfect fountainhead of uniting the one and the many, of our own existence as personal beings made in His image, and of the blessedness of submission and service to one another just as there is voluntary subordination in the Godhead.

So, although this plurality of persons within a single divine essence is indeed mysterious to a finite mind of the earth challenged by the noetic affects of sin, at the same time we see some wonderful applications of it that can be of encouragement as we draw out its implications.

My $02,

~Jason

 

[Debi1967]

Greetings Debi,

Just some rambling thoughts here. First of all, by way of encouragement, I think we should expect that the very nature of the Godhead would be something past finding out. As tiny little specks of the dust, we might expect that our heads would get tied up in knots as we try to comprehend the Almighty.

Secondly, I would encourage you to think of some of the wonderful implications of the Trinity. As it has been said, we believe in one God who exists in three eternally distinct persons. This is the fountainhead of unity in plurality, which we experience through His created order in various forms (family, church, government). It also explains how it is that God could be God in all of His glorious virtues apart from His creation. His love, grace, truth, mercy, etc., all found perfect satisfaction within Himself as the all-sufficient God. His unity in plurality is the perfect fountainhead of uniting the one and the many, of our own existence as personal beings made in His image, and of the blessedness of submission and service to one another just as there is voluntary subordination in the Godhead.

So, although this plurality of persons within a single divine essence is indeed mysterious to a finite mind of the earth challenged by the noetic affects of sin, at the same time we see some wonderful applications of it that can be of encouragement as we draw out its implications.

My $02,

~Jason

Jason actually reading your post a thought just came to mind. The Almighty is all things and therefore can be all and still be ONE. Does that make sense to you?? That's kind of what I am beginning to see and it is amking sense to me feel free to corect me if I am wrong..
Debi

 

[Debi1967]

Sorry guys I know I bug you all with a lot of stupid sounding questions sometimes but it is all new to me. It is also fustrating too. I thought I knew all these things only to find out I knew so little and even then what I did know most of it is useless to me. there are times I feel really dumb. And before you get crazy I know I am not. But is not the most pleasant experience in the whole world finding out that everything you have learned was either wrong or useless.
In Christ
Debi

 

[ps139]

If someone says they believe in Tri Une they usually mean three distinct separate things and they are not One. But instead they work in conjunction with each other for the same purpose. And there is a difference because then it means 3 Gods not one or polytheism.

I don't clearly understand what you are saying - but know this - the Triune God simply means "Trinity God," or just God.

 

[Debi1967]

I don't clearly understand what you are saying - but know this - the Triune God simply means "Trinity God," or just God.

Yes in reading what was put up for me to read I can see the relationship But their are others that believe in another type of Tri Une that is more commonly thought of when the expression is used and that is that they are three separate beings. IOW God is God the Almighty and then you have His son that is Born to Him and has a beginning and you have the Holy Ghost all separate from each other not coexisting. The difference is they work for the same purpose but they are indeed three separate GODS.

 

[Lotar]

The Trinity is one of the hardest doctrines to get your head around, so don't feel bad if you have a hard time.

This is the best explaination I've heard.



The Athanasian Creed

Written against the Arians.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.
​

 

[Jason1646]

Jason actually reading your post a thought just came to mind. The Almighty is all things and therefore can be all and still be ONE. Does that make sense to you?? That's kind of what I am beginning to see and it is amking sense to me feel free to corect me if I am wrong..
Debi

Well, I don't know if I would put it that way. God is not me, He is distinct from His creation. That being said, does it help you to put it this way: God is not one in the same way that He is three. Sometimes by distilling it to that sentence it makes more sense by emphasizing the fact that there is no contradiction, only mystery.

One other thing that I thought was interesting as I was taking math classes in college. If you sum 'infinity' three times you do not get 3 * infinity, it is still just infinity. That is, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity. Just another imperfect, albeit sometimes helpful analogy.

Sincerely in Christ,

~Jason

 

[Debi1967]

Well, I don't know if I would put it that way. God is not me, He is distinct from His creation. That being said, does it help you to put it this way: God is not one in the same way that He is three. Sometimes by distilling it to that sentence it makes more sense by emphasizing the fact that there is no contradiction, only mystery.

One other thing that I thought was interesting as I was taking math classes in college. If you sum 'infinity' three times you do not get 3 * infinity, it is still just infinity. That is, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity. Just another imperfect, albeit sometimes helpful analogy.

Sincerely in Christ,

~Jason

Ok I think I understand it a little better. By the way the Trinity teaching you just put up is the way I was taught, and the way I understand it the best. Thank you for posting it. It made is simple. Sometimes I think that my mind has just gone and done blown up on me. Don't worry it is just that sometimes I need things made very simplistic at first then I can expand on them. I am just tired today that is all.
In Christ
Debi

 

[KennySe]

For many Christian issues, I look in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" for its wording.