Trinity and Protestantism

[Duvduv]

i do not accept the myth theory. But I am suggesting that this issue provides evidence that the Christian religion did not get established until it was invented in the time of Constantine under his loyal creative scribe Eusebius with all the access to archives and libraries of the Empire to establish a new religion for a new empire.

 

[HypnoToad]

Christianity claims that there is an official canon going back to the first century

Reference?

 

[Duvduv]

What is a one word question? I always thought that Christians believed the NT was a collection of divinely inspired holy scriptures. But no one can tell me who before the Councils of the 4th century determined that they were a canon as in the alleged words of Iraeneus of Lyon.

 

[Godistruth1]

I find it interesting that Protestants never understood that the concept of the Trinity as a doctrine had no basis in the New Testament at all and did not reject it. Even Catholicism admit it isn't sourced in the NT. Maybe on this point the Oneness groups and Jehovah's Witnesses have a point.
This would also make sense if the whole religion only emerged under the new Constantinian regime of the 4th century, and therefore Christians used it if Christianity did not exist before then.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, p. 299, (1967)

Jesus being son of God is also ambiguous. Jesus always held the father as his God and prayed to him and did miracles through God not by himself. Jesus is neither son of God nor God!

 

[Duvduv]

How do all the theologians deal with this glaring reality? Did Jesus pray to himself?!

 

[HypnoToad]

What is a one word question? I always thought that Christians believed the NT was a collection of divinely inspired holy scriptures. But no one can tell me who before the Councils of the 4th century determined that they were a canon as in the alleged words of Iraeneus of Lyon.

You said:

Christianity claims that there is an official canon going back to the first century

My response of "Reference?" means I want you to cite a reference where "Christianity claims there is an official canon going back to the first century." "I always thought" is not a reference. Whether or not they are divinely inspired has nothing to do with that.

 

[Duvduv]

The scriptural allusions to a "trinity" are not what people think. They simply meant that Jesus was a divinely sent "son" of God in heaven and inspired with the holy spirit. This is not a trinity, which was used to appeal to pagan comfort with the idea of a divine human being.

 

[HypnoToad]

The scriptural allusions to a "trinity" are not what people think. They simply meant that Jesus was a divinely sent "son" of God in heaven and inspired with the holy spirit. This is not a trinity, which was used to appeal to pagan comfort with the idea of a divine human being.

Sure, cuz you say so.

 

[Duvduv]

Well, I think it makes perfect sense since the pagans did not remain pagan did they?

 

[Duvduv]

And.....the fact is that the only people who could prepare a canon and write anything were the monk scribes under a supervising authority to ensure accuracy. WHAT and WHO was that body before the 4th century that did that? The answer is that there was no such body

 

[HypnoToad]

Well, I think it makes perfect sense since the pagans did not remain pagan did they?

No, that doesn't follow at all. A pagan converting doesn't imply in the slightest that the Trinity was designed to "appeal to pagans".

Lots of Jews converted as well, yet people such as yourself seem to think the Trinity is squarely against Judaism, not designed to appeal to Jews in the slightest.

And.....the fact is that the only people who could prepare a canon and write anything were the monk scribes under a supervising authority to ensure accuracy. WHAT and WHO was that body before the 4th century that did that? The answer is that there was no such body

That has absolutely nothing to do with what you said in post #141.

 

[Duvduv]

I was addressing another question.

 

[HypnoToad]

I was addressing another question.

Then try using the reply feature. It's not that difficult.

 

[Traveling teacher]

many christians do not believe in the trinity
most new christians especially in other countries have no idea what the trinity is...

i have been a christian 40 years have belonged to a 4-5 denominations
3 of those did not preach the trinity.....or believe it

i dont use the word trinity because it is not in the Bible
I do believe Jesus/Yashua is the son of God but God has authority over Jesus
1 corinthians 15:28

i also believe strongly in the greatest commandment
that God is 1 God and there is only 1 God
Deuteronomy 6:4

these doctrines can both be true
-there is One God revealed to Moses and the prophets His name is Yahweh
exodus 3:14

and there is one and only one begotten son of the Father
John 3:16
matthew 22:45
psalm 2:12 prophesied the Son of God

 

[Philip_B]

At the heart of my understanding of reality is the mystery of the Holy Trinity. In the centre of the divine reality is relationship, and we fashioned in the image and likeness of God find at the centre of our reality there is relationship with self, with other, and with all that is beyond. Yes God is one, and yet God is so much more than one. As God reached out to touch the reaching finger of Adam, so in Christ Crucified he reaches out to touch us all.

When I read the account of the Baptism of Jesus by John in the Jordan I have no explanation and no understanding that does not lead me to this conclusion.

Firmly I believe and truly,
God is three and God is one,
and I next ackowledge duly,
manhood taken by the Son.​

 

[Duvduv]

This story is highly ambiguous. There is no doctrine in the NT ststing the triune God. You can have God, Holy Inspiration and a man is called a son, but it isn't the same as a triune God.

 

[Duvduv]

The Word became Flesh, but no one can explain WHY this allegedly happened, or why the Word becoming flesh was stated only in the Gospel of John and not in the synoptic gospels. No explanation anywhere of how people achieved the benefits of the atonement and resurrection for several thousand years before the "word became flesh." Or why the Word becoming Flesh constituted the same thing as atonement for sin of everyone alive from the day of the resurrection onward - even for the hundreds of years until large numbers of human beings even knew about it.

 

[Starcomet]

Again, some protestants rejected the trinity, but they are not considered protestant today.

 

[Albion]

The Word became Flesh, but no one can explain WHY this allegedly happened, or why the Word becoming flesh was stated only in the Gospel of John and not in the synoptic gospels. No explanation anywhere of how people achieved the benefits of the atonement and resurrection for several thousand years before the "word became flesh." Or why the Word becoming Flesh constituted the same thing as atonement for sin of everyone alive from the day of the resurrection onward - even for the hundreds of years until large numbers of human beings even knew about it.

The atonement did apply to those whom God considered otherwise righteous in the era before the coming of the Savior. According to the historic belief, they had not been allowed to go to heaven until Christs sacrifice.

 

[Starcomet]

The atonement did apply to those whom God considered otherwise righteous in the era before the coming of the Savior. According to the historic belief, they had not been allowed to go to heaven until Christs sacrifice.

I believe such a tradition is absurd as there is no biblical grounds to assume that no one went to heaven until Jesus came. All we have is traditions about shoel and that is that.