Trinity and Protestantism

[Uber Genius]

Luckily we don't have to make guesses as to the origin of Christianity that "makes sense." We have quite a rich library of writings that make the origin of Christianity clear. Further, the Trinity, it's development as a result of false teachings in the second through fifth centuries, and its coherence with the mid-first century writings by the New Testaments authors are equally well-documented.

No need for you to create ad hoc inferences (make crap up) about the origin of Christianity of knowledge by Protestants of Trinitarian doctrine. Spend a few minutes studying the actual chrurch fathers writings and you would see they are trying to combat false teach, usually about the nature of Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

I think you will find the answer here: Nontrinitarianism - Wikipedia

What sort of hash job they make of expounding it may be another matter.

In terms of number of adherents, nontrinitarian denominations comprise a small minority of modern Christianity. By far the largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Assemblies of Yahweh, Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International and the United Church of God.[6]​

What would be considered Protestant in the above grouping?

 

[Micah888]

I find it interesting that Protestants never understood that the concept of the Trinity as a doctrine had no basis in the New Testament at all and did not reject it.

What makes you think the Trinity has no basis in the New Testament? Or could that simply be wishful thinking? Read John 1:1 for starters. And there are many Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is God (e.g. Mathew 28:19).

 

[ToBeLoved]

However, there are reasons to argue that there was no Christianity before the time of Constantine. There in fact is no mention of anything connected to the 1st century Christian story in any Jewish sources such as the Talmud and Midrash, which both discuss the Samaritans and Saduccees at length. Plus there is not corroborative evidence outside of Christianity for the existence of Paul, or that any Christian communities existed per the Epistles in the first century.

Why would you think that the Jewish religion would put Jesus to death as a false Messiah and then write about it in their books?

I’m sure they weren’t proud of the fact.

 

[Duvduv]

Why would you think that the Jewish religion would put Jesus to death as a false Messiah and then write about it in their books?
I’m sure they weren’t proud of the fact.

I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You are theorizing why NOTHING about Jesus or Paul of the NT is mentioned in the Talmud or a single midrash. Considering that manuscript copies spread worldwide before printing from Morocco to Persia, you want to tell me that this involved a centrally controlled conspiracy (theory) to keep out any references from any copies anywhere. This despite the fact that the Talmud discusses at a length the improper behavior of the Samaritan Cuthites and the Saduccees and Zealots. Amazing..

 

[apogee]

Why would you think that the Jewish religion would put Jesus to death as a false Messiah and then write about it in their books?

I’m sure they weren’t proud of the fact.

Actually, the ‘inventor’ of ‘modern Judaism’, really was proud of it and was not at all shy about writing about that fact.

The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.

(This is now the third time I’ve quoted this letter on one of Duvduv’s thread)

 

[Starcomet]

Maimonides was going off of what he knew about Christianity from what he was told by medieval Christians. That is what all medieval Jews had to go off of when they wrote about him.

 

[Albion]

In terms of number of adherents, nontrinitarian denominations comprise a small minority of modern Christianity. By far the largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Assemblies of Yahweh, Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International and the United Church of God.[6]​

What would be considered Protestant in the above grouping?

Conventionally speaking, none of those would be considered Protestant. A denial of the Trinity is considered sufficient for them not to be...and some of those listed here are considered to be cults for other beliefs held in addition to that.

 

[Starcomet]

Conventionally speaking, none of those would be considered Protestant. A denial of the Trinity is considered sufficient for them not to be...and some of those listed here are considered to be cults for other beliefs held in addition to that.

Really the only ones in that list that are protestant, in the sense that their theological roots can be traced back to the protestant reformation, would be the Unitarian Universalists.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Really the only ones in that list that are protestant, in the sense that their theological roots can be traced back to the protestant reformation, would be the Unitarian Universalists.

And really only tentatively, through the Polish Brethren.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Starcomet]

And really only tentatively, through the Polish Brethren.

-CryptoLutheran

They were influenced by them and the church founded by Francis David still exist to this day in Romania.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You are theorizing why NOTHING about Jesus or Paul of the NT is mentioned in the Talmud or a single midrash. Considering that manuscript copies spread worldwide before printing from Morocco to Persia, you want to tell me that this involved a centrally conltrolled conspiracy (theory) to keep out any references from any copies anywhere. This despite the fact that the Talmud discusses at a length the improper behavior of the Samaritan Cuthites and the Saduccees and Zealots. Amazing..

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

You don’t make your point clear.

 

[Duvduv]

I am responding to your assertions about Judaism.

 

[Barney2.0]

What I don't understand is, why even need this Trinity Doctrine in the first place?
Jesus, when he was accused of claiming to be God cleared it up: "I am the son of God"
Then in another place he said: "My Father is greater than I"
Yet in another he said: "No one knows the day nor the hour of his coming, not even himself, but Only The Father."
And since God is Infinite, he has no beginning nor end, but His son Word aka Jesus Christ IS the beginning and the end.
God is Spirit, but it shows He has many Spirit helpers, one is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to teach us all things.
So we have the Father, the Infinite and Eternal Creator God
We have his son Word who became flesh and dwelt amongst us aka Jesus Christ
We have now the Holy Spirit
we have the Archangel Michael, and other helpers and warriors of God, .. each are clearly defined, .. why was there a need to create this Trinity Doctrine, can anyone tell me?
Thank you.

Why is the Holy Spirit reffered to as a he and as a person? So Jesus is God then because he’s the word of John, the Unitarian position doesn’t really make sense.

 

[Albion]

What I don't understand is, why even need this Trinity Doctrine in the first place?
Jesus, when he was accused of claiming to be God cleared it up: "I am the son of God"
Then in another place he said: "My Father is greater than I"
Yet in another he said: "No one knows the day nor the hour of his coming, not even himself, but Only The Father."
And since God is Infinite, he has no beginning nor end, but His son Word aka Jesus Christ IS the beginning and the end.
God is Spirit, but it shows He has many Spirit helpers, one is the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to teach us all things.
So we have the Father, the Infinite and Eternal Creator God
We have his son Word who became flesh and dwelt amongst us aka Jesus Christ
We have now the Holy Spirit
we have the Archangel Michael, and other helpers and warriors of God, .. each are clearly defined, .. why was there a need to create this Trinity Doctrine, can anyone tell me?
Thank you.

There would not be a need except that people, having no more explicit answer, wander into thinking all the possible alternative explanations of the nature of God that are hinted at in your own post here.--the Son is lesser than the Father, St. Michael is part of it somehow, the Holy Spirit is a mystery, etc. etc.

Having the right answer is therefore important.

 

[Arius]

Why is the Holy Spirit reffered to as a he and as a person? So Jesus is God then because he’s the word of John, the Unitarian position doesn’t really make sense.

I agree, we have to take the whole Bible into account.
You know, I believe it was someone here that corrected me on capitalizing the word son in "son of God" since he is not equal to God, .. and also someone opened my eyes to the fact that "the Holy Spirit" that Jesus sent is not God who is both Holy and Spirit, but that God has many Spirits working for Him, just as He has all the Angels working/serving Him.

So this makes sense, Jesus sent "the Holy Spirit", like one of the Angels, only he is Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

So I understand that the Spirit of God is someone like a librarian, who can help us answer things. But we have been stunned by Organized Religions, and made to think that we have to come to them for all the answers, when here is the Holy Spirit just waiting to help us, to guide us in ALL things, .. right?

 

[Arius]

There would not be a need except that people, having no more explicit answer, wander into thinking all the possible alternative explanations of the nature of God that are hinted at in your own post here.--the Son is lesser than the Father, St. Michael is part of it somehow, the Holy Spirit is a mystery, etc. etc.

Having the right answer is therefore important.

Yes, I agree.
We need each other, and we need to keep an eye/ear to what those we hold in higher esteem preach, if we feel it does not fit with the word of God, we must make a stand.
What we have today is that over the past 2,000 years we got lazy, and just went to church and let the preachers and teachers do everything for us, .. do our research, our seeking and knocking, so of course the human nature will take advantage of this, and look where the "Church" is today? But even worse, look where our world is headed, we the People seems to have lost all control, .. again because we got lazy and expect our elected to get us out of trouble.
God bless you friend, it's good to be back!

 

[Duvduv]

I thought we were discussing why Protestants retained the belief in the Trinity which is not a real teaching doctrine of the Christian scriptures. Things are off on a tangent.

 

[Albion]

All right. The Trinitarian nature of God is Scriptural, which is why none of the notable Protestant Reformers ever considered rejecting it.

 

[Duvduv]

Which is why the Christian scriptures state no doctrine about it, and why Oneness churches and Unitarian churches reject it. About the Jesus who refers to his father in heaven, and who asked his father why he abandoned him on the cross..... ..