Trinity and Protestantism

[Albion]

Which is why the Christian scriptures state no doctrine about it...

Of course they do.

and why Oneness churches and Unitarian churches reject it.

That's about the sum of it--Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals--and neither of them is considered to be Protestant.

 

[Philip_B]

Of course they do. That's about the sum of it--Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals--and neither of them is considered to be Protestant.

Protestant does not mean 'not Catholic' in the sense that saw Jew and Gentile might be used. Protestant Churches arose in the period of the Reformation, and specifically took a stance against what were perceived as doctrinal errors in the Roman Church. The Orthodox Churches are nor Protestant in that their origins as specifically not in the Reformation. The Anglican Church, though not protestant in nature or origin expresses a good deal of reformed theology, but not in a holistic sense, and its historic origins are somewhat different to Protestant Churches.

The Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals, have a range of origins, often expressed in a non-nicene Christologies, similar perhaps to Arius and Nestorius, and clearly since the Reformation heavily influenced by it, however the core of the distinction is somewhat different to the Protestant movement, and as such it may well be unhelpful to label them Protestant, as they would be significantly at odds with mainstream Protestantism on a number of matters, perhaps not least the reading of the first chapter of the fourth gospel.

 

[Duvduv]

The point is that there isn't explicit doctrine for a theory of Trinity with a son who refers to "my father" or "Father, why have you forsaken me?" It is obvious that the authors of the gospels and epistles did not have the trinity in mind and couldn't have cared less about it theologically....

 

[Albion]

The point is that there isn't explicit doctrine for a theory of Trinity with a son who refers to "my father" or "Father, why have you forsaken me?" It is obvious that the authors of the gospels and epistles did not have the trinity in mind and couldn't have cared less about it theologically....

I disagree, and the point that you may be overlooking is that Christ was BOTH GOD AND MAN.

At times, his human nature seems all too apparent, but there are other times when he definitely comes across as much more than that. Without me listing examples, we can appreciate that the words spoken by Jesus while on the cross and near physical death are, not surprisingly, very human.

You are also talking as though the Bible is a collection of musings by men who were in the process of recording their thoughts about religious matters. We do not see it that way.

 

[Duvduv]

So I guess you mean that in the gospels jesus was kidding around when he referred to his father as a third person, including on the cross.

 

[Albion]

So I guess you mean that in the gospels jesus was kidding around when he referred to his father as a third person, including on the cross.

No. What I was suggesting is that you appear not to have done much or any study at all into the interpretation of various Bible passages before telling us what we are supposed to think they are telling us.

 

[Duvduv]

Interpretations are subjective. What I was looking for was a definitive expression of the TRIUNE GOD in the Christian scriptures. This does not exist. What exists is the story of a man who refers to God as "my father" or "Father." Not as himself.

 

[Albion]

Interpretations are subjective. What I was looking for was a definitive expression of the TRIUNE GOD in the Christian scriptures. This does not exist.

...and that is a subjective interpretation.

Scripture does indeed indicate that God is triune and it gives us information about that nature. It is an unwarranted claim to state that there is "no definitive expression of the Triune God" to be found there.

 

[Duvduv]

Please identify any unambiguous sources in the NT for the doctrine of a triune God. And if the NT bases itself on the Hebrew Scriptures, please indicate any unambiguous source for this doctrine in them or in the Talmud of Jewish law. Thanks.

 

[HypnoToad]

Please identify any unambiguous sources in the NT for the doctrine of a triune God.

How many times do we have to answer the same question for you? You are not going to find the statement "God is triune" in the NT. That does NOT equate to "the Trinity is not taught by the New Testament". Why? Because the component parts ARE stated all throughout the NT.

Those components are:
1. The Father is God
2. Jesus is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God
4. Those three are distinct persons; i.e., Jesus is not the Father, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, etc.

There are passages pointing out those things all throughout the NT. Some of which have already been provided to you.

And if the NT bases itself on the Hebrew Scriptures, please indicate any unambiguous source for this doctrine in them or in the Talmud of Jewish law. Thanks.

We don't need to. "Based on" does not mean "can't contain new information". Something not being revealed in the Old Testament in no way precludes it from being revealed in the New Testament.

 

[Albion]

Please identify any unambiguous sources in the NT for the doctrine of a triune God. And if the NT bases itself on the Hebrew Scriptures, please indicate any unambiguous source for this doctrine in them or in the Talmud of Jewish law. Thanks.

You know, there are so many verses that bear upon this topic, from Genesis and Exodus to the epistles of the New Testament, some dealing only with the relationship of Son to Father and others dealing with all three persons, and others with the identify of the Holy Ghost, that it would be a monumental task to nail all of this own in only a discussion board post.

Some are important only because they refer to one or more of the persons by a personal pronoun, thus indicating that they are not mere forces or characteristics of God. Then too, and like most pieces of evidence, not all of these verses have the same weight as others.

In short, this is something that you need to research; and there is much that is readily available just from online sources, if you do not want to haunt your local library. From the start, this is what I was urging you to do so that you can be sure in your own mind about what the evidence adds up to, not just what scattered replies from the few members here who noticed your posts might have stated.

 

[Duvduv]

Can't anyone point out the official doctrinal statement for the triune God in the gospels that established that the man who referred to God as "my father" was himself the same deity?

 

[HypnoToad]

Can't anyone point out the official doctrinal statement for the triune God in the gospels that established that the man who referred to God as "my father" was himself the same deity?

Two different things in there.

A statement that "God is triune"? Already pointed out to you, does not appear in the New Testament.

A statement that Jesus is God? Look through this thread, that has already been provided to you.

 

[Albion]

Why are you insistent that there be a single verse that states exactly what you are
demanding?? Quite a few concepts that we accept as having been attested to in the Scriptures are based upon a number of different verses.

 

[Philip_B]

Can't anyone point out the official doctrinal statement for the triune God in the gospels that established that the man who referred to God as "my father" was himself the same deity?

The Bible (a word that means the books or Library) is not a manual of systematic theology. Nonetheless it is a foundation on which Systematic Theology is built. Some of what you seek might be found by looking at the Statement of Faith for CF and looking at the links it provides for the various statements made within the Nicene Creed (The Creed of the First Council of Constantinople 381, affirmed at Ephesus 435 and Chalcedon 451).

 

[Duvduv]

The church has an official canon of sacred texts, just as the Jewish religion has. So if Christianity emerged in the first century what body at that time established the canon of exclusive holy books, to the exclusion of all other texts?

 

[HypnoToad]

The church has an official canon of sacred texts, just as the Jewish religion has. So if Christianity emerged in the first century what body at that time established the canon of exclusive holy books, to the exclusion of all other texts?

If this is a valid argument, then how much of the Hebrew canon should be invalidated because it was written centuries after Israel/Judaism actually began? Moses & Israel didn't enter the Promised Land with a completed canon, did they?

 

[Rubiks]

Please identify any unambiguous sources in the NT for the doctrine of a triune God. And if the NT bases itself on the Hebrew Scriptures, please indicate any unambiguous source for this doctrine in them or in the Talmud of Jewish law. Thanks.

John 1:1, Matthew 28:19

There's also the "angel of the lord" sayings in the Hebrew Bible, who Philo of Alexandria (who predates Christianity) identifies as the eternal logos. Multi-personal views of God certain existed in pre-Christian Judaism, although not the majority view.

Philo - Wikipedia

 

[Rubiks]

I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean. You are theorizing why NOTHING about Jesus or Paul of the NT is mentioned in the Talmud or a single midrash. Considering that manuscript copies spread worldwide before printing from Morocco to Persia, you want to tell me that this involved a centrally controlled conspiracy (theory) to keep out any references from any copies anywhere. This despite the fact that the Talmud discusses at a length the improper behavior of the Samaritan Cuthites and the Saduccees and Zealots. Amazing..

Are you seriously advocating Paul mythicism? Even the most ardent Jesus mythicist (in my experience) believes Paul existed.

 

[Duvduv]

If this is a valid argument, then how much of the Hebrew canon should be invalidated because it was written centuries after Israel/Judaism actually began? Moses & Israel didn't enter the Promised Land with a completed canon, did they?

There is a difference. Christianity claims that there is an official canon going back to the first century, but no one knows who made it at that time. Judaism claims that the prophetic books were canonized along the way by the Sanhedrin and closed by the Men of the Great Assembly at the start of the Second Temple period.