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Trinity and Protestantism

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dreadnought

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As far as different Protestants are concerned, my understanding is that all view the trinity in the same manner.
Judaism has none of these ideas. God is one and alone. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy and divine inspiration. It is not a person.
That would be the farthest thing from the truth. Even on this website I'm sure they go back and forth about whether God is one of God is three.
 
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Duvduv

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What you are pointing to is a matter of faith. However, for Jewish history we do have corroboration from other movements and sects such as the Saduccees, Samaritans, the Greeks and Romans, to the existence of the Jewish religion. But since Christianity grew OUT OF Judaism, one would expect to find SOMETHING in the ancient Jewish texts alluding to this movement in ancient Judea, including its leaders. AND something among Roman sources about the alleged communities that existed in the first century that the Epistles refer to. But none of this exists, and the vast growth of Christian teachings attributed by scholars is found in the 4th century at the time of Constantine and Eusebius.
 
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dreadnought

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What you are pointing to is a matter of faith. However, for Jewish history we do have corroboration from other movements and sects such as the Saduccees, Samaritans, the Greeks and Romans, to the existence of the Jewish religion. But since Christianity grew OUT OF Judaism, one would expect to find SOMETHING in the ancient Jewish texts alluding to this movement in ancient Judea, including its leaders. AND something among Roman sources about the alleged communities that existed in the first century that the Epistles refer to. But none of this exists, and the vast growth of Christian teachings attributed by scholars is found in the 4th century at the time of Constantine and Eusebius.
Matter of faith? For whom?
 
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Phil 1:21

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What you are pointing to is a matter of faith. However, for Jewish history we do have corroboration from other movements and sects such as the Saduccees, Samaritans, the Greeks and Romans, to the existence of the Jewish religion. But since Christianity grew OUT OF Judaism, one would expect to find SOMETHING in the ancient Jewish texts alluding to this movement in ancient Judea, including its leaders. AND something among Roman sources about the alleged communities that existed in the first century that the Epistles refer to. But none of this exists, and the vast growth of Christian teachings attributed by scholars is found in the 4th century at the time of Constantine and Eusebius.
You mean evidence like the persecution of Christians under Nero and the numerous early texts new testament scriptures dating from well prior to Constantine?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I find it interesting that Protestants never understood that the concept of the Trinity as a doctrine had no basis in the New Testament at all and did not reject it. Even Catholicism admit it isn't sourced in the NT. Maybe on this point the Oneness groups and Jehovah's Witnesses have a point.
This would also make sense if the whole religion only emerged under the new Constantinian regime of the 4th century, and therefore Christians used it if Christianity did not exist before then.

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, p. 299, (1967)

You're assuming "Protestant" means "Bible only", that isn't the case. The historic Protestant groups, such as Lutherans, Reformed, Methodists, Anglicans, et al don't reject the history and tradition of the Church, we don't reject the Creeds and Ecumenical Councils of the first millennium. And we don't subscribe to the idea that if something is not explicitly written in the Bible then it isn't true. Those sorts of ideas come much later after the Reformation, or as part of the Radical Reformation.

I'm a Lutheran. Lutherans are the original Protestants. We also fully embrace the Historic Creeds, the first seven Ecumenical Councils, etc. Our confessional texts, known as the Book of Concord, explicitly include the three Western Creeds (Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed, and Athanasian Creed), implicitly affirms the Chalcedonian formula of the Hypostatic Union, and is absolutely and abundantly explicit that we reject nothing of the historic catholic faith of the Church:

"This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority. And even in these, if there were some difference, there should be proper lenity on the part of bishops to bear with us by reason of the Confession which we have now reviewed; because even the Canons are not so severe as to demand the same rites everywhere, neither, at any time, have the rites of all churches been the same; although, among us, in large part, the ancient rites are diligently observed. For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected.

Inasmuch, then, as our churches dissent in no article of the faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons, we pray that Your Imperial Majesty would graciously hear both what has been changed, and what were the reasons why the people were not compelled to observe those abuses against their conscience. Nor should Your Imperial Majesty believe those who, in order to excite the hatred of men against our part, disseminate strange slanders among the people. Having thus excited the minds of good men, they have first given occasion to this controversy, and now endeavor, by the same arts, to increase the discord. For Your Imperial Majesty will undoubtedly find that the form of doctrine and of ceremonies with us is not so intolerable as these ungodly and malicious men represent. Besides, the truth cannot be gathered from common rumors or the revilings of enemies. But it can readily be judged that nothing would serve better to maintain the dignity of ceremonies, and to nourish reverence and pious devotion among the people than if the ceremonies were observed rightly in the churches.
" - The Augsburg Confession, Article XXI.5-15

That's why it was a reform, not a revolution or a revolt. We were not revolting against the Holy Catholic Church, but seeking its reform by affirming the centrality of the Christ and His Gospel. Lutherans explicitly confess ourselves to be catholic Christians. From the Lutheran POV we never left the Catholic Church.

It is imperative to understand that there is no such thing as a "Protestant", there's instead only different Protestants. As such there is no such thing as "Protestantism" there are instead Protestantisms.

Further, we do believe the Doctrine of the Trinity is biblical. Not expressly or in name, but all the essential components of Trinitarian dogma, as confessed and codified in the writings of the holy fathers and in the Creeds and Councils are present in the biblical writings:

1) The oneness of God.
2) The Deity of the Son.
3) The Deity and Personhood of the Holy Spirit.
4) The distinction of the Three Persons.
etc.

The doctrine of the Trinity didn't show up in a vacuum, but is a clear articulation of Christian faith rooted in the revelation and reality of Christ, and apostolic teaching concerning Him, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

Alternative perspectives (such as Sabellianism, Adoptionism, and Arianism) don't stand up to muster, they do not stand under the scrutiny of Scripture and the historic and received teaching of the Church from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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What you are pointing to is a matter of faith. However, for Jewish history we do have corroboration from other movements and sects such as the Saduccees, Samaritans, the Greeks and Romans, to the existence of the Jewish religion. But since Christianity grew OUT OF Judaism, one would expect to find SOMETHING in the ancient Jewish texts alluding to this movement in ancient Judea, including its leaders. AND something among Roman sources about the alleged communities that existed in the first century that the Epistles refer to. But none of this exists, and the vast growth of Christian teachings attributed by scholars is found in the 4th century at the time of Constantine and Eusebius.

Flavius Josephus.

While the Testimonium Flavian is almost certainly inauthentic, at least in its well known form; but it's not the sole mention Josephus gives here; where the Testimonium is considered a late Christian interpolation, Josephus' comment on James, the brother of Jesus, is regarded as authentic by the scholarly consensus:

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent." - Flavius Josephus, Antiquities 20:9.1

"Jesus, who was called Christ," does not need to be regarded as Josephus believing that Jesus was the Christ, only instead that the Jesus in question was regarded, by some, as the Christ. Josephus doesn't call Him "Christ", but only says "was called Christ".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Radagast

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I find it interesting that Protestants never understood that the concept of the Trinity as a doctrine had no basis in the New Testament at all and did not reject it.

"This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept"

What's your question?
 
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Duvduv

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Flavius Josephus.
"Jesus, who was called Christ," does not need to be regarded as Josephus believing that Jesus was the Christ, only instead that the Jesus in question was regarded, by some, as the Christ. Josephus doesn't call Him "Christ", but only says "was called Christ".
-CryptoLutheran
It is pretty strange that one Josephus who ostensibly was recording great events in Judea in the 1st century would give such short shrift to the person identified as the savior and messiah of the world, who he describes in no significant way, giving more attention to his relatively unimportant brother. However, it helps as a later interpolation simply to "prove" that the first century Josephus knew about Jesus.
 
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Duvduv

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Matter of faith? For whom?
Things which cannot be proven empirically are to be accepted as a matter of pure faith. This is the bottom line of religion. But at least in the Jewish tradition there are more ancient sources who discuss it, as compared with none who discuss one Paul/Saul, the alleged communities in the 1st century, etc. Take a look at Acts, which refers to the Christians, but only discusses Stephen, and never enumerates any communities in Judea at all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It is pretty strange that one Josephus who ostensibly was recording great events in Judea in the 1st century would give such short shrift to the person identified as the savior and messiah of the world, who he describes in no significant way, giving more attention to his relatively unimportant brother. However, it helps as a later interpolation simply to "prove" that the first century Josephus knew about Jesus.

It very well could be an interpolation--and there are certainly some who suspect some tampering; but by and large the consensus seems to be its authenticity; as opposed to the Testimonium which is largely regarded as inauthentic.

It seems reasonable to me that Josephus wasn't interested in what he would have viewed as a failed messiah, but in the context of what he is talking about mention that the James in question was the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, at least by some.

However at this point this seems like an apologetics kind of discussion, which should be happening at the Apologetics board.

As for Protestantism and the Trinity, I've given my response to the thread's topic in post #27.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Take a look at Acts, which refers to the Christians, but only discusses Stephen, and never enumerates any communities in Judea at all.

Last I checked Jerusalem was in the Roman province of Judea.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Come on. Acts talks about communities all over Judea, and the oppression. And the only person mentioned was one solitary Stephen. What community in Jerusalem?

I was under the impression you were saying the Acts doesn't mention any communities in Judea, which is why I mentioned Jerusalem.

Stephen is highlighted because 1) he was one of the original seven deacons ordained by the Apostles and 2) he is the first Christian martyr.

What community in Jerusalem? The Jerusalem Church that is mentioned multiple times in the New Testament, including the Acts of the Apostles. Right off the top of my head, how about Acts 15 which mentions the first Church Council.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Rubiks

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As far as different Protestants are concerned, my understanding is that all view the trinity in the same manner.
Judaism has none of these ideas. God is one and alone. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of prophecy and divine inspiration. It is not a person.

Person, spirit, whatever. The fact however, is that YHWH is not a Unitarian being.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do your scriptures tell you anything about the "community" in Jerusalem besides stephen and James? And the rest of the country? Paul was persecuting Christians "everywhere". Whst Christian communities where??

Again, if you want to have this kind of conversation it should be in the Apologetics board.

Out of curiosity what is it that you want here? Unless there's a large list of names then there were no Christians in Jerusalem?

I mean if what you are really trying to argue here is that Christians didn't exist, I think you might be facing something of an uphill battle.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Afra

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Yeh, I dont know where the OP gets the idea that the Trinity is not to be found in Scripture. It is unavoidable!
Well it is a bit easy for anyone to claim that 1700 years after Nicaea.

What you are pointing to is a matter of faith. However, for Jewish history we do have corroboration from other movements and sects such as the Saduccees, Samaritans, the Greeks and Romans, to the existence of the Jewish religion. But since Christianity grew OUT OF Judaism, one would expect to find SOMETHING in the ancient Jewish texts alluding to this movement in ancient Judea, including its leaders. AND something among Roman sources about the alleged communities that existed in the first century that the Epistles refer to. But none of this exists, and the vast growth of Christian teachings attributed by scholars is found in the 4th century at the time of Constantine and Eusebius.
What exactly is your argument? That Christianity did not exist until the point in time when the modern concept of the Trinity was understood?
 
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