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TRINITARIANS: A Question about the Holy Spirit?

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Cubes

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Luke 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, the Trinity claim is that God is 3 in 1, each member a person, eternal (without begininning), self-existing, distinct and co-equal to the others. There is no order in this case, and the names like Father and son are merely arbitrary in reality.



If the Holy Spirit is a Distinct person not subjected to God but of equal status, then Trinitarianism makes the Father and Jesus liars in their claims as Father and son. A third party has now become the father. God forbid.

We are talking about 3 distinct PERSONS in 1 here.

So I hope someone can explain to me how the Gospel of Jesus Christ handed to us in the bible became so convoluted?


Thanks in advance!
 
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gort

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Jesus has all the attributes of God. As to the mechanics of the "overshadow", nobody with a finite mind can understand all the things of God.


Yet through Jesus all things were created.......

And to be open, there really are no human 'paralells' to which we can accurately describe/relate to describe the Triune God, other than what Scripture has told us.
Jesus is the Word, and the Word is eternal.



The Triune God is:

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son
The Son is not the Father
and so on.

So I hope someone can explain to me how the Gospel of Jesus Christ handed to us in the bible became so convoluted?


Thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

It's not convoluted.

and you're welcome.



<><
 
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Fit4Christ

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This may or may not address the OP, but this topic came up last night in my Alpha class at church. I was asked to explain the Trinity and here's my answer:

I am F4C the father (of 4 squiggly ones)
I am F4C the son (of my parents)
I am F4C the spirit (of the father and the son) in my children's mind. In other words, when they are not physically present with me, they hear (hopefully) and apply (hopefully) what I have taught them (hopefully - did I say that already? ).

I, F4C, am all of these in one person.
And then I'll concede that that's as far a human parallel I can make, since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are way beyond comparison to little ol' me!
 
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Cubes

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Hi F4C, BTW, I love the Alpha Course. I just disagree with the TD and the deceptions that it has spawn.

So you are a father and a son. But you are not your own parents. So I give you 2 out of three. Try again.

The Spirit, you think more along my lines, that the Spirit is not a different person, just a component of the Father or belonging to the father.
This is how the spirit can make Jesus the son of God and us, the children of God, if we do not reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. To say the spirit is distinct and co-equal to the father is to declare him a contender to the paternity of Christ.

Drbubbalove: Come on, give it a go.
 
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Fit4Christ

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Cubes said:
Hi F4C, BTW, I love the Alpha Course. I just disagree with the TD and the deceptions that it has spawn.
Click to expand...

I love it too! Food and fellowship. What is "TD"??

So you are a father and a son. But you are not your own parents. So I give you 2 out of three. Try again.
Click to expand...

I know, I know... my analogy is limited if you go beyond my statements. But, as far as trying to explain the 3 in 1 concept to someone not familiar with it, it seemed to work last night. I am a father, just as God is THE Father. I am a son, just as Jesus is THE Son. And my spirit guides or counsels my children, just as THE Holy Spirit, sent God, guides and counsels us (His children).

If you attempt to go any farther than that, then it is a woefully inadequate description and definitely not theologically sound.


The Spirit is not a person in human terms, but in Godhead terms, He is a co-equal.
 
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CaliforniaKid

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Hey Cubes, I recently posted the following on another thread (the "begotten" thread), but I think it applies to this discussion just as well. In fact, to a certain extent that whole thread applies. After all, both threads are discussing the sense in which Jesus is "begotten".

Here's a diagram I created to illustrate the Trinity:

In between "primordial spirit God" and "Father" there should also be an additional descriptor: "most closely identified with." In other words, the Father is the "primary" manifestation of "God", so that when we talk about "God" we mean the Father and when we talk about the "Father" we mean God. They are essentially the same.

Thus it is possible to speak of "God" as the father of Jesus and of "the Father" as the father of Jesus even though his conception occurred by the operative power of the Holy Spirit, because the three are one. You see, I don't necessarily disagree with you that God overshadowed Mary with "His own Spirit" so that his Son could be born on earth, because the Holy Spirit is his own Spirit according to the above model. Does that make sense?

-CK
 
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gort

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Hi Daneel, it is not so complicated to understand:
Click to expand...

I referred to the "mechanics" of the overshadow....otherwise, the Triune God is not hard to understand.....


Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.




Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Word is eternal. The Word was God. Jesus is the Word. All things were made by him. Jesus/the Word is the divine expression of God.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God is able to send his literal word to accomplish what he desires.
Click to expand...

Yes. He did some 2 thousand years ago.


 
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Hi F4C,

We are asked to give a defense for our faith. Why then is the Trinity so inexplicable? Also God gave us the Bible so we may know him and have fellowship with him through Christ, why then is it difficult to understand the basic things? On the other hand, I am sure you don't ran into a similar difficulty when reading the pure word of God. Why is that?

I don't blame you for the difficulty you are having. It is unscriptural. Were it not, you could explain it scripturally and have evidence of it in nature according to Romans 1:20.

The pure word of God is straightforward meets those two criterias at least.

Again, I think you are right about the part of your spirit, in that the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. But that is not consistent with Trinitarianism, as that doctrine demands that the Holy Spirit must be the 3rd part of the equation.
 
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CaliforniaKid

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Hi Cubes,

"The pure Word of God" as opposed to the diluted Word? I think it's a fallacy to assume that God would make everything easy to understand. In fact, Peter says that many of the things Paul writes are "hard to understand." There has been many a time when reading "the pure Word of God" that I've run across something that wasn't easy. The Trinity IS a Biblical doctrine. It takes all the different statements in the Bible about how the three persons are related and makes the best possible sense of them without rejecting any of them.

I like to compare this with String Theory or Relativity in physics. We know that the theories are true enough, and we can explain them in very abstract terms, but the mechanics are much harder to understand. Even specialists don't fully grasp the concepts. Sometimes the reality of things is just a whole lot bigger and more complicated than we expect it to be. I can't reject the Trinity just because of Occam's Razor. I want the doctrine that makes sense of every verse on the subject in the whole Bible, not the doctrine that makes sense of some verses or most verses.

-CK
 
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Cubes

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Hi CK,

Yes and No but I am encouraged by your post, especially your last paragraph. And it is not exactly the Trinity.

Moreover, the three are not one in the sense of co-equality, or substance, but in unity as you would be one with your family. It is the same unity we are invited into and the one Jesus prays for in John 17.

I'll visit your thread when I get a chance. Looking forward to it.


I will visit the thread.
 
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Cubes said:
Yes and No but I am encouraged by your post, especially your last paragraph. And it is not exactly the Trinity.
Click to expand...

Why isn't it the Trinity? I still recognize that the Holy Spirit is a separate person from the other two (while in unity with them), yet even so he is "Spirit", he is "of God", and it is by his operative power that God begat His Son (much like the sperm metaphor you used).

Moreover, the three are not one in the sense of co-equality, or substance, but in unity as you would be one with your family. It is the same unity we are invited into and the one Jesus prays for in John 17.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Co-equality is something I've always had questions about. Even if Jesus is equal in nature to the Father, he at least willingly subjects himself to Him. I'm not clear on that point but don't consider it a major issue, and so I won't argue with you there. But I think it's fairly clear that they are one substance, as I outlined in the diagram above. If they aren't one substance, then we have two Gods.

-CK
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Correct in only that the scriptures do not explicitly say the word Trinity or that the Three are "One in substance" or "One in Being". You could certainly a argue a Duality from scripture, though I note you do not do that either. Interesting that you make this statement about the Trinity as if by its abscence in scripture you refute it and then launch into something that is also not in the Bible.

Also not sure why you think 3 Divine persons each having a Will, cannot collectively make One Divine Will, just as collectively the Three are God. You are making our belief more complicated than it needs to be, not that we can really comprehend the Infinite.
 
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gort

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How could the Son call the Holy Spirit Father when the HS is the Holy Spirit?


You're getting warm.....

Problem #2: How can you be with yourself? If the word is that same one God, he can't be with God.
Click to expand...

I are myself. And sometimes I'm besides myself.... And as John tells us, the Word was God.

G3056
&#955;&#959;&#769;&#947;&#959;&#962;
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.


Solution #2: The Word is a different person. He belong's to God, because he is called the word of God. The word beginning is relative. Beginning of what? Creation? Time?
Click to expand...

John 1:1-3 is both a paralell to Genesis creation, and because "ALL THINGS"
were created by Him....

Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.

.....I would reckon it to be exactly all things and all of time and before time.


Hbr 1:3Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Click to expand...

....and let's not forget:

Heb 1:1 God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,


You cannot be the same as your image. Jesus is being compared to a standard here.
Click to expand...
Yes, He is. He once said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?

You cannot sit at your own right hand.
Click to expand...
Jesus sits at the Right Hand of the Father.


All that you say of Christ is so, but you neglect to frame it in the context that he himself frames it in: In that the Father is above all, th ultimate power and authority and the source of everything.
Click to expand...

What son IS greater than his father? But then, The Father and the Son have something unique of which there is no other. The Father has given the Son all things, and the Son gives the Father all things....

And I've not neglected to frame in context.

The Word is Jesus and is God. The divine expression/divine 'footprint'.


Question : When was the Word existent?



Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.



<><
 
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Cubes

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Hi CK,

Yes, the Trinity compromises the essentials of the gospel of Christ.
God tells us: God is One. And the Trinity says, "no. That is not true. God is actually three in one."

I am not familiar with Occam's Razor or too much physics either. And I should probably tell you that I am not good at reading extrabiblical writings on the bible, with the exception of concordances as need be--time doesn't permit me.

And I do agree that the word of God is not entirely grasped overnight, as insights and revelations are ongoing. But still, a good guide is that scripture should be unbroken, according to Jesus.
 
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