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Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

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That's the key, a person's mind.

Paul said, "And I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
(1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Where does a person's spirit come from?
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
What is the purpose of the spirit?
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? (1 Corinthians 2:11)
The word for soul is psyche from which we get mind. A person's mind is made up of two elements, a brain and a spirit from God to provide intellect.

The spirit is nonphysical and transcends death, it returns to God. It is imprinted with a person's persona so that at resurrection God can put a person's spirit into a new body and the person is the same as ever.

When a person dies the brain flatlines and all sensory inputs to the brain are nullifed. The person doesn't know they are dead.

what does that say about the incarnate Logos? He did not cease being spiritual, he was not a soulless body, a suit of flesh. He pre-existed his incarnation, and he is the Word of God.

So, to get back to the point, why do you think mentioning the fact that God is not a mere suit of flesh, somehow says something about the person of the Word of God, who is of the same divine nature as the Father, having always existed.
 
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jamie2014

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So, to get back to the point, why do you think mentioning the fact that God is not a mere suit of flesh, somehow says something about the person of the Word of God, who is of the same divine nature as the Father, having always existed.

Did Christ surrender his God status to become human? Or did he simply disguise himself as a human?

I realize Catholics claim that Mary is the mother of God with which you seem to agree, but Luke says the child born to Mary was the Son of God, not God.
 
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Did Christ surrender his God status to become human? Or did he simply disguise himself as a human?

I realize Catholics claim that Mary is the mother of God with which you seem to agree, but Luke says the child born to Mary was the Son of God, not God.


First off you misunderstand the nature of the Hypostatic Union and the Incarnation. Here's a basic summary:

What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?

What is the meaning of the Incarnation of Christ?


Luke says along with Isaiah that the child born to Mary is Immanuel, "God with Us."


Isaiah 7:10-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Immanuel Prophecy

10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!”
13 Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.[a] 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. 17 The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.”
Footnotes:


  1. Isaiah 7:14 Literally God-With-Us


Jesus was the meaning of Immanuel, "God with us." Immanuel is one of the many titles for Jesus, a description of who He is.

 
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Did Christ surrender his God status to become human? Or did he simply disguise himself as a human?

I realize Catholics claim that Mary is the mother of God with which you seem to agree, but Luke says the child born to Mary was the Son of God, not God.

What you seem to be thinking is that the term God is like the term "king", for a king can have his title removed.
When I'm using the term, I'm understanding it in the context of what Jesus is, not as a title.
I am a being, it is not mere title, but it is what I am.
Christ is God, because he is from eternity. I would merely call a person mistaken for saying Christ is not God, if such a person believes that the word "God", is a title such as king. However, to claim that at some point, the Word of God did not exist, is to deny that he is Creator, for without him, nothing was made that was made. Since nothing was made without the Word of God, the Word of God, who proceeds forth from the Father, is not a created being, such as an angel.

Christ remained being God, just as he remained being Creator. Christ would remain God even in giving up omniscience. The Soul of Christ, the true self of him, is the Logos. The Logos did not technically become a soulless body, but rather inhabited, or possessed a body. Since a human is a soul with a (human body), the Logos being the soul "possessor" of a body was both human and God. That is because the Logos did not cease to be the Logos.

When understanding the term "Son of God", one must not think of a family in which there is a husband and a wife, and they produce offspring, such is not the case. That sort of thinking has been espoused by Mormons, and has been a criticism of Muslims in order to mock Christians. When understanding the Son of God, we call him such because he is the Logos, who with the Father is eternal and divine, who was born through Mary, and was in a suit of flesh. It is not as if the Father, became Jesus, but rather, the Logos put on flesh through Mary. Mary is the mother of God in the sense that she served as the medium through which the Logos could acquire flesh and at the same time have the correct lineage through which the Messiah was to come. Mary is not the Creator of God, nor are even mothers creators of their own children, but they are merely the ones who provide a place for birth to occur and it is God, not the mother, who knits together the child's flesh in the womb. The term mother of God, while technically correct, creates the connotation in many minds that Mary is somehow great as God or greater, but this is only derived because one subjectively views the term Mother, as a person of greatness, ex. The Mother of all Badies... However, a mother is merely a carrier for a child to be born or who has been born.

So how can I claim that Jesus is both Son of God, and God?
Simple, both the Logos and the Father are God, as according to John 1:1, and the Logos took the role of God in the Flesh who was born.

So in the same way, as the Word was in the beginning with God the Father, and was God, being eternal and divine, he is also God, eternal and divine, and the Son of God, a title acquired through taking on flesh, and being born.

Lastly, Luke did not say, "the child to be born is the Son of God, not God".
There is no reason for me to think that the Logos could not remain God, while being human.
 
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jamie2014

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What you seem to be thinking is that the term God is like the term "king", for a king can have his title removed.

Let's simply. There are four types of beings described in the NT.

There is God, there are gods, there are humans, and there are angels.

Jesus is less than God (he said so) but he is greater than humans or angels.
 
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jamie2014

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Luke says along with Isaiah that the child born to Mary is Immanuel, "God with Us."

Let's look at what Luke records that Gabriel said to Mary.

"He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest..." (Luke 1:32)

Let's say for the sake of discussion that the term "Highest" refers to God. There can only be one Highest, everyone else is less high.

If the term "Highest" refers to God then Jesus is the Son of God.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The flesh of Jesus, is not God.
The flesh of Jesus, is an outer coating.
If a temple of God is destroyed, is God destroyed? No it's just a temple.
Is the temple of God, God? No, it's a temple.
Is the flesh of God, God, not it's just a vessel.
Are you a spiritless vessel?
I am a spirit, with flesh and blood. I am an incarnate spirit.
I'm not an atheist, I don't believe I am body, nor do I believe Jesus is a body, but he wears a body.
The flesh of God was created, just as a temple is created.
The English word creature has the meaning of a created being, however, the English word creature was never used in reference to Jesus.

What you should say is that Jesus is the "Firstborn of creation", and thus imply that Jesus was born. However, even the term firstborn does not equate to a "created being". He was born through the Virgin Mary. God was born. He is "God with us"
Meth Amon Ho Theos, Emmanuel.

Matthew 1:22-23 NKJV

So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

So, Jesus is "God with us".

The Word of God was not a created being, he existed before his incarnation.
Do you deny that he existed before his incarnation?

It seems that your claim would rely on that, because the issue you raise deals with birth.
"oh Birth implies being created", well in this case it doesn't. The Logos existed before his incarnation.

Jesus died, God died. By this I only mean his temple became dead, not that his spirit was somehow destroyed. So, the Word of God, his as spirit never was destroyed.

There's nothing in the bible that says God's flesh cannot cease to function.
Most of this is true, but Jesus' humanity was not an outer coating. Jesus is 100% human-all of him, and 100% divine-all of him. Jesus died, but resurrected-when he appeared to people after Easter Sunday, he was, and is, still 100% man, and 100% God. He ate with the apostles, allowed Thomas to poke his finger into Jesus' side, and so on.

Otherwise, you're right on.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You forgot Athanasius, who explained it best:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius were the students of the original disciples. They lived at the turn of the century, before and after 100 AD. They did not mention a trinity or give a description of a trinity in all their writings.

It was not until the second century AD that the idea of a trinity began to take shape in the Gnostic Christian community.

Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus is also known as Tertullian. In the second century he formulated the idea of one substance having three persons.

Origen considered the Son to be not coequal, but derived from the Father whom is the Holy Spirit. Arius would adopt the idea of the Son being derivative of the Father in the third century AD. This eventually lead to a major crisis in the Counsel of Nicea.

Arius gained many followers as he taught that Christ was a created being, created by the Father.
Arians were the followers of Arius.

The creed that came out of the Counsel of Nicea in 325 AD did not explicate the Trinity. It simply proclaimed the divinity of Christ, rejecting Arianism.

There was no resolution on who the Holy Spirit is. That notion would not arise again until the Counsel of Constantinople in 381 AD.

Basilius, also known as Basil, bishop of Caesarea. In the later 3rd century AD, formulated ideas as to what the Holy Spirit was. This was mainly in reaction to Arius who was his enemy doctrinally. Basil and others such as Gregory of Nazianzus and Gregory of Nyssa were encouraged to develop ideas to combat the idea of Arianism. The person who encouraged them was Athanasius who hated Arianism and wanted it done away with.

Philo introduced the idea of a trinity to the Hellenistic Jews of Alexandria.
Philo did not equate the three members of his trinity. He wrote that “the middle person of the three,” was Yahweh, the Father of the Universe, who is uncreated and unbegotten. God, the Father of the Universe was accompanied by two “body-guards”: the creative power and the royal power. God being greater than them. These ideas of Philo made a great impact on Christianity.

More on How the Trinity Doctrine Entered Christianity
God commanded, “You will not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.” (Exodus 20:7 NRSV) Because of this command the translators of the Septuagint, did not transliterate the name “Yahweh” into Greek. They believed that the transliteration would have been a misuse of God’s name. Instead, they translated it as “Kyrios,” which in English is the word LORD. So therefore, the word Lord/Kyrios, became the name of Yahweh in Greek. It was a common title for masters or men of authority. Also, the New Testament writers applied it to Jesus. In the end, Jesus and God shared the same name title: Lord/Kyrios.

In the early 4th century, Lactantius (born 240 A.D. died 320 A.D.) wrote: “He {Jesus} taught that God is one {person} and that He {the Father} alone ought to be adored, nor did He {Jesus} ever call himself God.” Lactantius did not recognize a Trinity. He emphasized that Jesus is an “improperly called god,” and must not be worshipped as God.

Wrong interpretations and the distortion of God’s word is what supports the doctrine of the trinity.
When asked, "Which is the most important commandment of all?" Jesus answered, "The most important of all the commandments is, hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One." (Mark 12:29.)

That is what we find throughout the scriptures:

"Beside me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6.)

"I am God, and there is none else; there is no God beside me." (Isa. 45:5.)

"I am God, and there is none else." (Isa. 46:9.)

"One God and Father of all, who is above all." (Eph. 4:6.)

"Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6.4.)

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5.)

"There is but one God, the Father, whom made all things, and us by Himself , and one lord Jesus Christ, by whom we are in.
(1 Cor. 8:6.)

"This is life eternal, that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent." (John 17:3.)

This last quotation is Jesus speaking; addressing God in prayer as the one true God, and speaking of himself as separate from that one true God.


Additional

Ps 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.
(KJV)

Acts 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
(KJV)

1 Cor 15:28
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all, in all.
(KJV)

Heb 1:2-8
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to me a Son?"

(New International Version)
Psalm 97
1 The LORD reigns, let the earth be glad;
let the distant shores rejoice.
2 Clouds and thick darkness surround him;
righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
3 Fire goes before him
and consumes his foes on every side.
4 His lightning lights up the world;
the earth sees and trembles.
5 The mountains melt like wax before the LORD,
before the Lord of all the earth.
6 The heavens proclaim his righteousness,
and all the peoples see his glory.
7 All who worship images are put to shame,
those who boast in idols—
worship him, all you gods!

John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Isaiah 44:6
"This is what [the LORD / Yahwah] says— Israel's King and Redeemer, [the LORD / God] Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no [God / Elohiym.]

Isaiah 48:11-12
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.

KJV Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:


According to history Trinitarianism has its origins in Gnosticism.
There is also a document about a Kabbalist who suggested the Godhead is triune. That was at the same time Yahshua was preaching. Perhaps that is why Yahshua quoted this verse:
Mark 12:29.
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is [one / only.]


Trinity
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases came from Plato, through the teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three, three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

These men also taught three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. It was believed he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but he was discovered to have taken this from Hermes and Plato.

Valentinus (also spelled Valentinius) (c.100 - c.160) was known as a early Christian Gnostic Theologian.

It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as also professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.
 
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Most of this is true, but Jesus' humanity was not an outer coating. Jesus is 100% human-all of him, and 100% divine-all of him. Jesus died, but resurrected-when he appeared to people after Easter Sunday, he was, and is, still 100% man, and 100% God. He ate with the apostles, allowed Thomas to poke his finger into Jesus' side, and so on.

Otherwise, you're right on.

He was 100% Human, and 100% God. What I mean is that the Logos indwelled a human body, his own body, and was therefore human, a being with a soul and human body, and his soul, the Logos, always remaining diety.
Jesus' humanity was genuine, but aren't we all wearing outer-coatings of flesh?
 
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Let's simply. There are four types of beings described in the NT.

There is God, there are gods, there are humans, and there are angels.

Jesus is less than God (he said so) but he is greater than humans or angels.

Jesus made himself positionally lower than the Father, however, in doing so he did not claim to cease being the Creator God.

What you need to do is show that Jesus is ontologically lesser than the Father, not positionally lower.

Hebrews 2:9 NKJV
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

What that verse shows is that Jesus made himself lower than an angel. This deals not with the ontological aspect of greatness, but positional.

Philippians 2:5-11 NKJV
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is equal, ontologically speaking, with the Father. Positionally he made himself less, yet was later exalted to the highest name. At the name of the Lord, we bow.
 
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jamie2014

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What you need to do is show that Jesus is ontologically lesser than the Father, not positionally lower.

No, not really. I'll just take his word for it.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, "I go away, and come again unto you."

If ye loved me ye would rejoice because I said, "I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)


 
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No, not really. I'll just take his word for it.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, "I go away, and come again unto you."

If ye loved me ye would rejoice because I said, "I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)



Yes, really that's what you would need to do in order to win logically. You may believe your interpretation of the passage, and in your ignorance you're wrong.

I'll take the whole counsel of scripture, not just an isolated verse.

Philippians 2:5-11 NKJV

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christ, didn't think it was a crime to be called equal with God the Father, and he made himself lower than the angels for a time, but later was exalted again sharing the glory of God.

What you have done is ignore several key points I've made, and thus have shown the audience, if we have one, that you cannot properly build a solid case for your belief, as I have done.
 
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jamie2014

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What you have done is ignore several key points I've made, and thus have shown the audience, if we have one, that you cannot properly build a solid case for your belief, as I have done.

The supreme being is referred to in scripture as the Most High. How many Most Highs do you believe there are.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Man has a head and the man Jesus Christ has a head.
 
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Jesus is 100% human-all of him, and 100% divine-all of him. Jesus died, but resurrected-when he appeared to people after Easter Sunday, he was, and is, still 100% man, and 100% God. .

the steak I ate last night was 100 percent meat, and 100 percent air.

President Obama is 100 percent a man and 100 percent girl.

Thomas Jefferson is 100 percent dead and 100 percent alive.

the atlantic ocean is 100 percent saltwater, and 100 percent fresh water.

a duck is 100 percent meat and 100 percent air.

so since God is a spirit, and Jesus is flesh and bone, (according to scripture) then what you're saying is that Jesus is 100 percent flesh and bone, and 100 percent spirit. which would meant that flesh and bone is spirit.
 
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The supreme being is referred to in scripture as the Most High. How many Most Highs do you believe there are.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Man has a head and the man Jesus Christ has a head.

Yes, the head of Christ is the Father.

However, Just as man's head is Christ, and Christ is man, Christ's head is God, just as Christ is God.

Christ has a God, the Father.

Hebrews 1:9 NKJV
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

The Father agrees.

I asked earlier, but I'll rephrase it for you.

Is Christ worthy of our worship?
Is it right to worship Jesus?
 
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the steak I ate last night was 100 percent meat, and 100 percent air.

President Obama is 100 percent a man and 100 percent girl.

Thomas Jefferson is 100 percent dead and 100 percent alive.

the atlantic ocean is 100 percent saltwater, and 100 percent fresh water.

a duck is 100 percent meat and 100 percent air.

so since God is a spirit, and Jesus is flesh and bone, (according to scripture) then what you're saying is that Jesus is 100 percent flesh and bone, and 100 percent spirit. which would meant that flesh and bone is spirit.
You fabricated false things to no prevail. Of course Thomas Jefferson is dead, not alive, and so on...

By that logic, humans are soulless bodies, having no spirit.
Christ wore flesh, just as we do. We are " flesh and blood" figuratively speaking, but truly we are spiritual beings inhabiting a tent of flesh.
 
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jamie2014

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I asked earlier, but I'll rephrase it for you.

Is Christ worthy of our worship?
Is it right to worship Jesus?

I believe Jesus is worthy of worship but remember we are flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones.
For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones. (Ephesians 5:30)
A wife should certainly reverence her husband as Sarah did, but God forbids any gods before him. You need to realize that Jesus is not God and neither are we even though we are one with him in flesh and Spirit.

Paul explained Christ's position relative to God.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)
The man Christ Jesus is between God and men. He is less than God (he said so) but he is greater than men.

However, we are joint-heirs with him of all creation. Think of it as community property.
 
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I believe Jesus is worthy of worship but remember we are flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones.
For we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones. (Ephesians 5:30)
A wife should certainly reverence her husband as Sarah did, but God forbids any gods before him. You need to realize that Jesus is not God and neither are we even though we are one with him in flesh and Spirit.

Paul explained Christ's position relative to God.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)
The man Christ Jesus is between God and men. He is less than God (he said so) but he is greater than men.

However, we are joint-heirs with him of all creation. Think of it as community property.

Is Jesus Lord?
The same Lord who was seen in the OT?

Btw, you still argue to no prevail, Philippians 2 clearly shows Jesus's ontological equality with God the Father.

It is abundantly clear that Jesus is God, the Lord.

Hebrews 1:5-10 NKJV

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord , in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Jesus is Lord. Jesus is God.

You still have failed to produce a convincing counterargument to a number of my points. I could bring them back up over and over. What you have to do is show that the passages I have used cannot possibly mean what I believe about them.

Address the Hebrews passage. Why is the Son called God?

It's not as if I'm just making this up. I mean, seriously you have to admit, that's a logical reason for me to be at least reasonably justified in my belief in Christ's diety.

What I would expect from a person who is somewhat reasonable, who denies Christ's deity, is to say, "well at first glance, it seems like that but here's a good reason to interpret the verse this way..."

You're not doing that, you're just shooting the same foam dart arguments in futility. They carry no weight.
 
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CherubRam

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God is not a man: In Numbers 23:16; "God is not a man..." defies the possibility that Yahshua The Messiah is God. The text states that: Yahwah is not an ("iys/man) that He should lie, nor the son of (Adam/Man")...

Also Here:

Hosea 11:9
I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim again. For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you.

Psalm 80:17
Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand, the son of man you have raised up for yourself.

Matthew 22:44
" '(The Lord / Yahuah) said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." '


Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Matthew 22:41
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42"What do you think about the Messiah ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'lord'? For he says, 44" '(The Lord / Yahuah) said to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." 45If then David calls him 'lord,' how can he be his son?"

Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an (angel / messenger) of (the Lord / Yahuah) appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
 
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