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Trinitarian Doctrine

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by jbenjesus, Mar 7, 2002.

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  1. Tyler

    Tyler Member

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    John 10:38
    but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.

    Who raises the dead to life, but God? Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life!
     
  2. Tyler

    Tyler Member

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    1John2:22,23
    Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
    Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

    He who denies one as God denies both. Jesus Christ Is Lord!
     
  3. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Seriously?

    Why?

    Huh?

    Ok.. that still doesn't nullify the concept of the Trinity.

    Riiight....

    I never said it was more than speculation. Only a theory at best. But, there are quite a number of "trinity" models in various religions out there.. coincedence? or similar origin?

    John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
     
  4. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Ahh, so lets replace one mystery with another...

    At least the Trinity explains who Jesus prayed too...
     
  5. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Verses showing Plurality in the OT:

    Gen. 1:26, "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . ."

    Gen. 19:24, "Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven."

    Amos 4:10-11, "‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,' declares the LORD. ‘I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah . . . '"

    Is. 44:6, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me . . . ‘" See also, Isaiah 48:16.

    Can we see God?

    Gen. 17:1, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless."

    Gen. 18:1, "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day."

    Exodus 6:2-3, "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, ‘I am the LORD; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.'"

    Exodus 24:9-11, "Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank."

    Exodus 33:11, "Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend..."

    Num. 12:6-8, "He [God] said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . "

    Acts 7:2, "And he [Stephen] said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran. . . "

    Unlike most verses in the OT of this nature, the ones above do not say "visions", or "dreams", or the "Angel of the LORD" as a means of seeing God, but rather they say that people saw God, and that He was seen, and that He appeard as the God almighty.

    How can this be?

    The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty, but not the Father.

    So who were they seeing?

    It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus; compare John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14:

    John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

    Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

    That was apparently only seen by a few... :D

    I never claimed there was three gods. The Trinity Doctrine makes claim to there being One God, and One God only.

    Except Jesus...

    Now, I thought Jesus was the Alpha and Omega.. what do they mean again?

    Not that we see in scripture, and I said I wasnt basing my view in scripture.. it was just a speculation using logic regarding the origin of Trinitarian concpets in pegan mythos which came about after Noah.

    So, again I ask, why do you think the Trinity teaches there is more than one God?

    Hmm.. well, lets talk terms a minute. One and Oneness are not saying the same thing. I agree that God is One, but i do not accept the Oneness philosophy.

    I lean more toward the first...

    I would stay away from number 3, but the others I don;t have a problem with.

    I bet you were hoping I would catch that twist, huh? I in no way said anything that support s atritheistic view. Not at all. By saying that you have labled yourself a liar in my book.

    You yourself said that trinitarianism is not tritheism. GO figure. You tried and failed to snare me there.
     
  6. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Quote me scripture that says their is a mystery of the Godhead 3 in 1?
     
  7. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Actually my sarcasm was directed at you:

    You said "In their effort to explain the mysterious 3 in one, Trinitarians have had to go outside of the bible to speak to us in terms that are unbiblical, and at many times, contrary to explicit statements in scripture that speak of God’s indivisible oneness of existence."
     
  8. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Awww, we've resorted to sarcasm. I thought we were having an educated discussion with no need of that.

    Regarding your verses showing plurality:

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    I noticed you cut off the latter half of the verse and the following verse. The latter half of the verse then speaks of him in singular terms. How do you explain the use of a plural pronoun for God and in the following verse a singular pronoun? I’ll await your explanation before I give mine.

    I don’t understand what plurality you see in Genesis 19:24. Please explain. Are you going to tell me that one was “the LORD” and the other one was “the LORD out of heaven”, and so there are two “LORDS”? C’mon we know there is but One Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4 – our God is one Lord) and this verse speaks of that One Lord.

    This verse is simply an example of restatement for emphasis. Bernard explains, “Many passages in the Old Testament phrase one idea in two different ways as a literary device or as a means of emphasis. There is no evidence that after God's temporary manifestation to Abraham He lingered around and traveled to Sodom to oversee its downfall. The Bible only says the two angels went to Sodom. The NIV shows more clearly that Genesis 19:24 merely repeats the same idea in two ways: "Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the LORD out of the heavens." We should note that both statements describe the LORD as one being in one place doing one thing - in heaven, raining down fire.”

    Are you using Genesis 19:24 and Amos 4:10-11 to say that God and Lord are two different persons of the Godhead? C’mon Zone, any person reading this knows the Lord God was only talking about Himself and what He did. These verses are not saying that there is a God and there is a Lord (Deuteronomy 6:4 again). Please, don’t tell me that is your argument?

    Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    I suppose your using this verse to say that “the LORD the King of Israel” is different than “His redeemer the LORD of hosts”? did you read the end of that sentence. It explicitly states there is no God beside Him alone.

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    Your using this verse to divorce “the LORD God” and “His Spirit”? Here, contrary to what you alluded to in using Genesis 19:24 and Amos 4:10-11, “the LORD God” is used. Meaning, when “the LORD” is used alone it is understood as meaning God, just as if it was written “the LORD God”. Now you will divorce “the LORD God” from His very own Spirit?

    John 4:24 states, “God is a Spirit…” By your sharing, you now teach, whether you meant it or not, that there are two eternal Spirits or two spirits of God.

    1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,…” and Ephesians 4:4 explicitly declares there is only one Spirit. Just because they (Hebrews) used the term “Holy Spirit”, didn’t mean they recognized Him as a 2nd or 3rd person in the Godhead. The “Holy Spirit” is a very descriptive term of God that is used to show God in action. Again, the Jews were strict monotheist (one God) and never were they taught by God differently.

    Oh by the way, see the verse after Isaiah 48:16:

    Isaiah 48:17 - Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

    “The Lord” is “the Redeemer” and also known as “the Holy One of Israel”. Explicit statements of scripture that nullify and reject what you have tried to allude to, by using these verses from the Old Covenant, that the Old Covanant is teaching a plurality in the Godhead.

    I’m sorry Zone, but in my assessment of what you have shared, you would rather rely on implicit statements (where you have to infer something by assumption which leads you to being presumptuous and therefore your results and your conclusions are biased based on your preconceived notion) in scripture. This invariably leads you to misunderstanding and misinterpretation scripture.

    Wouldn’t you rather rely on explicit statements of scripture in trying to describe your “3 person one God”?
     
  9. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Firstly, God is an invisible God (Colossians 1:15 and I Timothy 1:17). He cannot be seen for that is the express definition of invisible. He can only be seen if He manifests Himself. Manifests means to make known or visible what had been previously hidden or unknown, to make actual or visible, expose to view, to show one’s self, appear, to plainly recognize.

    Jesus was God manifested in the flesh. Not another person of God. It simply doesn’t say that. It explicitly states it was God. There is no other God, but God. The invisible God (the only one that there is) made Himself revealed, made known or visible, exposed to view, appeared and made Himself recognizable to all flesh, in the flesh.

    All your Old Covenant examples are merely examples of the invisible God making Himself visible in some fashion. Sometimes the people who saw this manifestation described Him as a “man”, one “like the son of man”, an “angel”, captain of the LORD’s host, and so on and so forth. This does not at all indicate a 2 person or 3 person God. If you were correct you would have to flip a coin and decide which “person of God” they saw.

    Now your going to try to divorce God Almighty from even being the Father? You can’t be serious, Zone. God Almighty is another title for God the Father. By your reasoning, there is now a God Almighty, that is separate and distinct from God the Father. Do you see how this number in the Godhead is everchanging and keeps growing. You separate the Godhead because God is referred to as so many different titles, yet you don’t realize that they are not different persons within the Godhead, but very simply different titles of the same one God.

    Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?...

    Malachi here is talking about humanity having only one Father, the very same God who created all of us. Almighty God is the Father of all creation.

    Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    To the Jews their One God is also know as the Father.
     
  10. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Brother you added that and that is not there. There is no Savior besides God. In Jesus dwelt all the fullness of God for He was God. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God shed His very own blood, the blood of Christ, to save us from our sins. God doesn’t have blood because He is a Spirit without flesh and bones. But when He came in the flesh, as Jesus, that body and that blood was God’s body and blood. Christ’s blood was not blood of some 2nd or 3rd person in the Godhead. It says, Christ’s blood was God’s own blood.

    Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
     
  11. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    In the Old Covenant, God speaks of Himself as the first and the last. Putting yourself in this time period, you can understand that at this time, the name of God - Jesus, which is the name above all names, had not yet been revealed.

    ISA 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

    ISA 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    ISA 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

    The New Covenant has no contradictions regarding this issue with the Old Covenant. Except now, since God has revealed Himself already in the flesh and has revealed His name which is above all other names previously given, we see Jesus saying the same words. Jesus is the God of the Old Covenant Himself manifested in the flesh. Jesus is God. For there is no other God beside Him.

    Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
     
  12. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Well thank you for admitting that this opinion of yours is really speculation on your part. I don’t think you realize, however, the ramifications of the insinuation that tritheistic pagan religions have the right ideas, just the wrong God. Major ramifications by just admitting that.
     
  13. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Trinity. yours?

    Not 2 Lords... 2 who are Lord.

    Well the titles of God and Lord are interchangeable with the members of the Godhead, but yes, that is my argument (part of it anyway).

    And God being a Trinity, fits nicely.

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    Nope not divorce.. I recognize them both as being God. This verse, in my view is speaking of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    Niether, but that there is a Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost, and there is also the Father and the Son.

    Nothing more than your opinion, I am afraid.. and the verses make more sense accpeting the Trinity.

    Oh by the way, see the verse after Isaiah 48:16:

    This verse is speaking of Jesus CHrsit specifically, and God generally.

    Back at ya.

    Ahh, but the Trinity Doctrine does this as well.
     
  14. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    How nice of you to call me brother. So, brother, do you reject Christ as your Savior? Or do you accept Christi as your saviro, who is God, the only one that can save you?

    True, and I agree.. so does the Doctrine of the Trinity.
     
  15. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

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    Blah blah blah? Big words :)

    If you mean, do I realize I am hurting my own argument.. my response is, yes I am aware of the "remifications of the insinuation" but it is not hurting my argument.. on the contrary.. it points to one source for most if not all religions. that source originating with Noah. and the common theme in them was probably taught.
     
  16. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    Where did I ever say that trinitarianims is not tritheism? Quote me please. I may have mistakenly put that, but I dont' think so. That has really been my whole point. It says it's monotheistic, but in practicality it's not. To me, it is neo-tritheistic, and I already explained why.
     
  17. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    Zone,

    You quoted me and responded,
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    quote:
    Give me just one verse which says I have to accept Jesus as God in order to have salvation.


    John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    Your translation of John 8:24 is missing something.

    It is missing the part that says one has to believe Jesus is God in order to have salvation.


    Reminder:
    I have not seen any response from my last message on the thread, “If Jesus is God, can these verses be true,” in reference to John 1:1. I would very much like to get one. Here is my letter again, just as a reminder.

    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The Word was not a plan or a thought or an idea, or else it could not exist outside the Father.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    What is there in John 1:1 that suggests the Word existed outside the Father?


    You wrote,
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    I would say get a new source on your greek.

    God (Theos) when used with was (en), is referring to a person in the first, and not a descriptive trait of being as.

    "en" is the imperfect form of eimi, which is a first person singular present verb.

    "en thoos" or was God is sayig that the subject is the indicitive of the present first person of subject: God.

    It isnt saying it is like God, or as God, or Godly. Theos, when used with en is does not make theos an adverb or any other descriptive. Theos is the object of the subject orf thre statement. The subject is what? The subject is the object. The Word is God.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I gave you my references. Where are yours? I have never seen the explanation you have offered in any reference material nor in the discussion among the Greek experts on B-Greek.

    Macro11
     
  18. macro11

    macro11 New Member

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    Zone,

    I am some what confused by your responses (or lack thereof) to my message a few days ago. You quoted and responded:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    quote:
    What is seriously lacking

    Seriously?

    quote:
    in this is the understanding of the direct children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the people of Israel. An idea of God being a trinity is completely lacking in their understanding of God.

    Why?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Are you asking why the people of Israel don’t believe in the trinity? If so, the simple answer is God didn’t reveal Himself to them as a trinity. In spite of all the arguments presented about the plurality of Elohim and the use of plural pronouns (only a few times), Israel understood God to be only one person.

    If your question, why, is about something else, please clarify.

    You quoted and answered:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    quote:
    More important than that is the complete lack of specific correction to their “misunderstanding” of God in the New Testament.

    Huh?

    quote:
    God specifically corrected their misunderstanding of grace. God specifically corrected their misunderstanding of the place of the Gentiles in God’s Kingdom plans. I would say the correct understanding of the nature of God is more important than these teachings, yet, God gave no specific correction of their understanding of God as one and only one person.

    Ok.. that still doesn't nullify the concept of the Trinity.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Work through the thought processes with me.

    Israel misunderstood the concept of grace. Because of their misunderstanding, God made great efforts in the New Testament to correct Israel’s misunderstanding of grace.

    Israel misunderstood the place of the Gentiles in God’s plan of salvation. Israel viewed Gentiles as dogs, unworthy of coming to God. God made great efforts in the New Testament to correct Israel’s misunderstanding of God’s care for the Gentiles.

    IF God is a trinity and IF Israel misunderstood the trinitarian nature of God, God would have made as great (probably greater) an effort to correct this misunderstanding in the New Testament. We would have several chapters specifically focused on defining God as being made up of three “persons” just as we have several chapters dealing with the acceptance of the Gentiles and the importance of grace.

    Since we don’t have these specific corrections of Israel’s misunderstanding of the triune nature of God, I conclude Israel’s understanding of God being one and only one “person” is what God intended for Israel and the church to understand. So in answer to your last response, yes, it does nullify concept of the trinity.

    Now, you are free (obviously) to disagree with me. I would appreciate the thought processes you use to conclude such correction of Israel’s misunderstanding of the triune nature of God is not needed.


    You quoted and responded:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    quote:
    There is no specific teaching of the trinity in the NT. There are only a few scriptures which can be twisted to fit the trinitarian definition.

    Riiight....
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    As I said, you are free to disagree with me. It is my opinion the scriptures have been twisted. I do believe the fact remains, there is no specific teaching of the trinity in the NT.

    Can you point me in the direction of the verse which says God or any other being is made up of multiple “persons?” As usual for me, verses which speak of those who are demon possessed are to be excluded. It is my opinion without such specific revelation, all teachings which suggest multiple “persons” in any being are the conclusions of faulty logic.

    Macro11
     
  19. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    What does One say to you that Oneness differs from saying?

    What is the part of the Oneness philosphy that you disagree with?
     
  20. jbenjesus

    jbenjesus <font color="blue">Berean</font>

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    That isn't an explanation.

    That marvelous one word explanation went over my head and below my knees before I could move my neck. :p

    Please... could you come down to my level and indulge me a bit by elaboriting on your one word explanation? :)

    I've tried to be thorough in my explanations to you. Could you please do the courtesy when asked a question? :holy:
     
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