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Trial by Scripture

cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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The Bible sets up a legal structure that I thought couldn't be ignored.
I'm not talking about Mosaic Law, though that is part of it.
I am talking about the whole overall story that ultimately make Jesus the Savior of the world.

Now, I've already shared my understanding of what the Gospel is, so I won't bore you with that again.

The legal system that is in place, as described in the Bible, places me on trial for my sins, and finds me inexcusably guilty. For my crimes, I am punishable onto death, eternally condemned to torment in hell.

However, at a pivotal moment in history, a sufficient sacrificial Lamb, which has been ordained to fill in for me since just after Adam first introduced sin to our species, came and died in my place.

The reason this happened, and had been in the works since long before I ever existed, was because God knew me before He formed me in my mom's womb. I believe He knew me and had a plan for me way back before Adam ever even ate of that fateful fruit.

That plan was a great one. I would be blameless of any sin. I would be innocent. I would be his rightful and noble heir. I would take His name as my own, and I would bring pride to that name as a son of God.

That plan is why Jesus had to die for me. Jesus had to die to restore me to that plan. Jesus' death was made necessary by not just Adam's sin, and not just my sin, but by the sins that every human throughout history would commit.

Thus, I am guilty of sin, just as every person to inhabit the planet is, was, and will be.

But, guilt is a tricky thing. Because, you see, to be guilty, I had to have made a choice. I had to have, of my own volition, done something other than what God wanted me to do. I had to have gone outside His perfect will for my life, just as Adam did that fateful day with his wife.

So, if I am found guilty, and thus righteously convicted and sentenced to eternity in hell, by the trial of Scripture, then what I did must be my own doing.

If I didn't choose to sin--if I was made to sin by a God I could not refuse--then what I am is not guilty, but obedient. If God made me to sin, and I sinned, then I have stayed within His wishes for me, and I have satisfied my calling.

If that is the case, then it would not be right to find me guilty of anything displeasing to God. It would not be a righteous consequence to sentence me to eternal damnation. It would not be justice to convict a man that only did what God made Him to do.

But, the Bible makes it very clear that from the beginning, God has had a great plan for me. God has, since before the foundation of the world, predestined me to be His son.

Therefore, in full acknowledgement of my guilt, found to be worthy of hell by trial of Scripture, I recognize Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, dying vicariously for me, that I might be restored to that great destiny God has always had for me.
 
F

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The Bible sets up a legal structure that I thought couldn't be ignored.
I'm not talking about Mosaic Law, though that is part of it.
I am talking about the whole overall story that ultimately make Jesus the Savior of the world.

Now, I've already shared my understanding of what the Gospel is, so I won't bore you with that again.

The legal system that is in place, as described in the Bible, places me on trial for my sins, and finds me inexcusably guilty. For my crimes, I am punishable onto death, eternally condemned to torment in hell.

However, at a pivotal moment in history, a sufficient sacrificial Lamb, which has been ordained to fill in for me since just after Adam first introduced sin to our species, came and died in my place.

The reason this happened, and had been in the works since long before I ever existed, was because God knew me before He formed me in my mom's womb. I believe He knew me and had a plan for me way back before Adam ever even ate of that fateful fruit.

That plan was a great one. I would be blameless of any sin. I would be innocent. I would be his rightful and noble heir. I would take His name as my own, and I would bring pride to that name as a son of God.

That plan is why Jesus had to die for me. Jesus had to die to restore me to that plan. Jesus' death was made necessary by not just Adam's sin, and not just my sin, but by the sins that every human throughout history would commit.

Thus, I am guilty of sin, just as every person to inhabit the planet is, was, and will be.

But, guilt is a tricky thing. Because, you see, to be guilty, I had to have made a choice. I had to have, of my own volition, done something other than what God wanted me to do. I had to have gone outside His perfect will for my life, just as Adam did that fateful day with his wife.

So, if I am found guilty, and thus righteously convicted and sentenced to eternity in hell, by the trial of Scripture, then what I did must be my own doing.

If I didn't choose to sin--if I was made to sin by a God I could not refuse--then what I am is not guilty, but obedient. If God made me to sin, and I sinned, then I have stayed within His wishes for me, and I have satisfied my calling.

If that is the case, then it would not be right to find me guilty of anything displeasing to God. It would not be a righteous consequence to sentence me to eternal damnation. It would not be justice to convict a man that only did what God made Him to do.

But, the Bible makes it very clear that from the beginning, God has had a great plan for me. God has, since before the foundation of the world, predestined me to be His son.

Therefore, in full acknowledgement of my guilt, found to be worthy of hell by trial of Scripture, I recognize Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, dying vicariously for me, that I might be restored to that great destiny God has always had for me.
Interesting and well stated.

I'm just not sure where to go with this post.
 
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cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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Interesting and well stated.

I'm just not sure where to go with this post.

Dude! I have followed so many of your posts with interest and support.
I would totally respect anything that pops into your head about it.
If you know of any Scriptures that really suppot it or refute any part of it, I'd appreciate it.
 
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bling

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God had a plan from the beginning of time to save everyone that would accept His help and condemn everyone that would refuse God’s Help. This does not mean specifically you, but could include you if God knew your free will decision to accept His help that would come about in human future, but this may not really be future for God.
 
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cubinity

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God had a plan from the beginning of time to save everyone that would accept His help and condemn everyone that would refuse God’s Help. This does not mean specifically you, but could include you if God knew your free will decision to accept His help that would come about in human future, but this may not really be future for God.

:amen:
 
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Yab Yum

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Conventionally I was created in time, fell, sinned, was under wrath, and was forgiven by an iron age sky-god who did so by torturing himself to death in my place.

Ultimately I am begotten not made, never fell, never sinned, am "in Christ", and am forgiven by my Father who does so by showing me that I, like His other thoughts, cannot be affected by any attack.

Conventionally, I have free will. Ultimately, free will is an illusion.
 
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cubinity

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Conventionally I was created in time, fell, sinned, was under wrath, and was forgiven by an iron age sky-god who did so by torturing himself to death in my place.

Ultimately I am begotten not made, never fell, never sinned, am "in Christ", and am forgiven by my Father who does so by showing me that I, like His other thoughts, cannot be affected by any attack.

Conventionally, I have free will. Ultimately, free will is an illusion.

Interesting. I guess I'm just a conventional kind of guy. Thanks for sharing.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Conventionally I was created in time, fell, sinned, was under wrath, and was forgiven by an iron age sky-god who did so by torturing himself to death in my place.

Ultimately I am begotten not made, never fell, never sinned, am "in Christ", and am forgiven by my Father who does so by showing me that I, like His other thoughts, cannot be affected by any attack.

Conventionally, I have free will. Ultimately, free will is an illusion.
:confused:
 
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cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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I think it was an attempt to somehow reconcile the notions of predestination and omniscience, as well as God being outside of time, with his conventional perception of himself as a sinner in time. From that angle, I appreciated what I thought he was trying to say.

Did I understand what you were getting at, Yab Yum?
 
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Rick Otto

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Thing ya have to remember about law; there's basicaly two types.
Archaic Law is Law that has ancient origins & has come to be accepted & practiced voluntarily by the majority of the population under jurisdiction.
Edict is the type of law that arises from present & presumably unique challenges and is issued more or less by fiat.
Bottom line?
"We can't have archaic & edict too." (rofl)
 
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Yab Yum

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Yes, there is not one truth - there are two.

The crucifixion is the conventional, temporal, moral truth. The resurrection is the ultimate, eternal, liberating truth.

Conventionally:
if I am found guilty, and thus righteously convicted and sentenced to eternity in hell, by the trial of Scripture, then what I did must be my own doing.

Ultimately:
it would not be right to find me guilty of anything displeasing to God. It would not be a righteous consequence to sentence me to eternal damnation. It would not be justice to convict a man that only did what God made Him to do.
 
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cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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Yes, there is not one truth - there are two.

The crucifixion is the conventional, temporal, moral truth. The resurrection is the ultimate, eternal, liberating truth.

Conventionally:


Ultimately:

Thanks again for sharing.
I'm really glad you are participating in this thread.

I mean no disrespect when I say:
I think what you've used my words to say is not in line with the total context and intent for which I wrote them.
And, I think the thing you've made them out to say is double-speak.
I wrote them as a contrast, in which only one could be true.
Again, though, maybe it's just that I'm too conventional to understand this ultimate state you speak of.

Maybe I just don't understand, either...
 
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cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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Thing ya have to remember about law; there's basicaly two types.
Archaic Law is Law that has ancient origins & has come to be accepted & practiced voluntarily by the majority of the population under jurisiction.
Edict is the type of law that arises from present & presumably unique challenges and is issued more or less by fiat.
Bottom line?
"We can't have archaic & edict too." (rofl)

I want to pick up what you are putting down, Rick.
Trouble is, if I'm totally honest with you, I don't get the implication it has on the context of this thread.
Are you willing to take another stab at explaining it to me, and I'd be pleased to write a response to it.
Thanks!
 
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F

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Dude! I have followed so many of your posts with interest and support.
I would totally respect anything that pops into your head about it.
If you know of any Scriptures that really suppot it or refute any part of it, I'd appreciate it.
OK I'll do, especially for a fan.:blush: It is such a mind shift to the typical stuff I ususally deal with. No, I'm not having a hard time with what you posted. I like.

I'll ponder it some more. Right now I'm a little busy with some of life.
 
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cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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OK I'll do, especially for a fan.:blush: It is such a mind shift to the typical stuff I ususally deal with. No, I'm not having a hard time with what you posted. I like.

I'll ponder it some more. Right now I'm a little busy with some of life.

I will be over here, waiting impatiently, but also hoping real life goes well for you. God bless!
 
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Rick Otto

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I want to pick up what you are putting down, Rick.
Trouble is, if I'm totally honest with you, I don't get the implication it has on the context of this thread.
Are you willing to take another stab at explaining it to me, and I'd be pleased to write a response to it.
Thanks!
It's a play on words. I was just teasin' ya a little. I tend not to worry about you because you try extra hard to understand things. i gotta "don't worry too much about this kid, he'll be all right" feeling about you.
Anyway, lookin' at yer OP,...
Thus, I am guilty of sin, just as every person to inhabit the planet is, was, and will be.
Agreed with with reservations...
But, guilt is a tricky thing. Because, you see, to be guilty, I had to have made a choice. I had to have, of my own volition, done something other than what God wanted me to do. I had to have gone outside His perfect will for my life, just as Adam did that fateful day with his wife.
It's even trickier than that. I don't have to be guilty of Adam's sin to suffer its consequences. And I can be guilty unconsciously or unintentionaly. Guilt is many-faceted. I learned that from the Sisters of Perpetual Responsibility (I keed, I keed).
Conversely, I can be responsible for your sin without being guilty of it.
I can be responsible for it with you being guilty of it.
your own volition is God given (God made), Adam damaged, & Jesus saved.
So, if I am found guilty, and thus righteously convicted and sentenced to eternity in hell, by the trial of Scripture, then what I did must be my own doing.
It is. God allowed that.

If I didn't choose to sin--if I was made to sin by a God I could not refuse--then what I am is not guilty, but obedient. If God made me to sin, and I sinned, then I have stayed within His wishes for me, and I have satisfied my calling.
God allowed Adam to condemn everyone to self-condemnation.
He elected to save some of them, not based on anything personaly redeeming about them, rather simply an arbitrary tho otherwise well considered act of mercy.

If that is the case, then it would not be right to find me guilty of anything displeasing to God. It would not be a righteous consequence to sentence me to eternal damnation. It would not be justice to convict a man that only did what God made Him to do.
Rom9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?25]As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved
But, the Bible makes it very clear that from the beginning, God has had a great plan for me. God has, since before the foundation of the world, predestined me to be His son.
yup. Eph1:4
Therefore, in full acknowledgement of my guilt, found to be worthy of hell by trial of Scripture, I recognize Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, dying vicariously for me, that I might be restored to that great destiny God has always had for me.
See? I knew you're gonna be alright!
 
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