Transsexuality

[Cute Tink]

Bolding mine. I would tend towards this answer

As expected given my beliefs, I tend toward that answer as well.

 

[Strathos]

Can you tell someone with depression, "Hey. Stop being sad!" or someone with OCD to "stop being weird!"? No, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that.

I have OCD and can confirm this. And there is unfortunately no solution or cure that has helped.

 

[[serious]]

Ok, you all made good points. I'm sorry that I discounted various biological and physical examples of gender dysphoria. I guess it really is a theological gray area. I'm sorry if that came across as insensitive to transgendered people who legitimately did have some biological gender issues.

First off, kudos for realizing the issue is more complex and immediately accepting the more complex reality. We all, as humans, have a tendency to try and rescue our original position when faced with incongruous facts. It generally takes careful self reflection to overcome that.

I was really only thinking of it in terms of identity, but obviously there are multiple facets to this. So I guess I'll rephrase my position in light of all this.

I understand that it is probably very insensitive of me to say that someone who undergoes a sex change is "sinning". But I also believe that this might not necessarily be the only solution. Couldn't a person with gender identity issues (assuming that they are "leaning more towards" one gender over another, namely their "assigned/birth/original" gender) simply find some way to be more comfortable with their "assigned" gender? It seems to me like some could, depending on the severity of their gender dysphoria.

This is another case where we have to be careful about terms. Those three terms are not necessarily equivalent. For example, Bacha posh. In this case, the culturally assigned gender is NOT the same as the birth gender.

let's start off by listing some of the components of gender:
1. Genetic: XX, XY, or other (Fixed at birth)
2. External genitalia: male typical, female typical, or atypical (Can be surgically altered)
3. Internal genitalia: ovaries, testicles, or neither (may be removed for various reasons)
4. Cultural identity: Treated/referred to as male, female, or other (can be fluid)
5. Individual identity: Person feels male, female, both, or other (it's unclear how fixed this component is)

The main question is, "how should we deal with those components that can be altered in cases where non alterable aspects are not in agreement?

So, if we have someone with androgen insensitivity, they may be:
1. XY
2. female typical
3. testicles (internal, likely would be removed for health reasons)
4. Treated/refered to as female
5. Person feels male

Should we allow them to alter 2 and 4? I assume yes.

Let's say they instead identify as female, is it fine to continue to treat them as female? I would certainly hope we would all agree "yes".

That establishes that #5 has at least some bearing on what we should do/allow.

Let's look now at something like this: Albanian sworn virgins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. XX
2. female typical
3. ovaries
4. Treated/referred to as male
5. Person wishes to identify male

I would have no issue allowing them to continue to identify as male, and I suspect most other people would agree in this situation. After all, they gain benefits otherwise denied to them, their society is fine with it, what would give us the right to insist that they act all girly? (Now, of course, an optimal solution would be gender equality in those regions, but until that can be meaningfully implemented, let's not cause additional burdens for those women who can find a societal loophole)

Now, as a final case, let's look at what I see you trying to wrestle with:

1. XX
2. female typical
3. ovaries
4. Treated/referred to as female
5. Person wishes to identify male

If we are fine with the last example, there is little reason to not change at least #4 in this example as well. It's easy enough to say John instead of Joan if that's what he would like to go by.

So the question is whether we should allow #2 to be surgically reassigned. I think it would be smart to make sure there won't be regrets later, as you can't really unbake that muffin. But realistically, if other body modification such as tattoos and piercings are morally acceptable for mere decoration, a more substantial modification that will make them substantially more satisfied with their life seems hard to ban.

 

[juvenissun]

From what I understand, it's the development of the brain that causes gender dysphoria, some genetic fluke in the womb can cause a female or male brain to exist in a body of the opposite gender.

Male brain? What is that?

 

[selfinflikted]

Male brain? What is that?

Opposite of a female brain.

 

[Cute Tink]

Male brain? What is that?

Are you unaware that brain construction and development differs between males and females?

 

[juvenissun]

I am just subscribing. I am curious about this subject myself.

If I transgender a male infant, would this person becomes female-like after the surgery?

 

[juvenissun]

The idea that we are all born either 100% male or 100% female is misinformed. There are many birth abnormalities out there. Some are visible and some are not.

How do we know what is the male% of a "male" baby? Would that % change with age?

 

[juvenissun]

Are you unaware that brain construction and development differs between males and females?

No. Tell me about it. Thanks.

So you can tell if a brain sample belongs to a male or a female, right? How do you identify it?

 

[Cute Tink]

If I transgender a male infant, would this person becomes female-like after the surgery?

"Transgender" is not a verb, it is an adjective. We don't transgender. We aren't transgenders. We are transgender people.

No. Tell me about it. Thanks.

So you can tell if a brain sample belongs to a male or a female, right? How do you identify it?

Read about it here at WebMD as they know more about this subject than me. I'm don't personally do research on the brain and probably wouldn't do their explanations justice.

Or there's How Stuff Works

And Psychology Today can help too.

Some differences to note:

Male brains utilize nearly seven times more gray matter for activity while female brains utilize nearly ten times more white matter.

Male and female brains process the same neurochemicals but to different degrees and through gender-specific body-brain connections.

A number of structural elements in the human brain differ between males and females.

See the links if you are interested.

How do we know what is the male% of a "male" baby? Would that % change with age?

Maybe you should go back and read the rest of my post, as I talked about some of the abnormalities that show that a person, just because they have XY chromosomes or a male body aren't necessarily what people think of when they think "male" - i.e. an XY person with an external female body (CAIS) or an XX person with a male external body, but a functioning uterus.

 

[[serious]]

If I transgender a male infant, would this person becomes female-like after the surgery?

No

 

[Cute Tink]

No

Indeed. You got something else from his post than I did.

 

[juvenissun]

I am totally lost on gender identification now.
It is much harder than identifying the gender of a rock.

 

[humbleServant77]

or that God has nothing to do with the general development of each person.

This gets my vote. I think parents are far more responsible, having that direct heredity thing, as well as control over the environment kids are raised in.

There's also the possibility of allowing this sort of thing as a test, to see if we're actually willing to, you know, love people. More of a
"what if" than a position ...

 

[Cute Tink]

I am totally lost on gender identification now.
It is much harder than identifying the gender of a rock.

I am not sure why you are lost, but feel free to ask whatever you like. I'm fairly well studied on the concept of gender identification, particularly as it relates to trans people, and I have no problem with answering questions.

This gets my vote. I think parents are far more responsible, having that direct heredity thing, as well as control over the environment kids are raised in.

Yes, and the random happenings what with nature not being perfect and all that

There's also the possibility of allowing this sort of thing as a test, to see if we're actually willing to, you know, love people. More of a
"what if" than a position ...

That would be a very welcome thing.

 

[grandvizier1006]

I guess my worries in this whole thing is this: If I have a child who has this issue, I don't want to do anything like what Joshua/Leelah's parents did. But at the same time, if there's a way to prevent/delay a sex change and perhaps make my child feel happy the way they are and to understand that God loves them no matter what, I'd like to explore any alternative options. I know that to you non-Christians posting here the sex change makes more sense, and in some cases it really seems like I'd agree. I think that if one was to get a sex change and it was a sin (which from a theological standpoint is something I'd prefer debating with other Christians who can speak clearly on this), it would just be a single sin, not a state of perpetual sinfulness, since according to Christian theology we all live that way. And as a Christian I think that even if humans are born flawed God does not "make a mistake" in allowing them to be born that way. It's a very troubling theodicy, I know, and I don't understand it very well myself. But I just don't want my future children to feel as if they are people that they really aren't and have to live with pain all of their lives, only to put on some physical disguise which, spiritually speaking, doesn't change who they are at all. So I guess I really don't know what to think on this issue.

So maybe I should take a copy of this to another section? Can we get like a duplicate of this thread for orthodox Christians only to discuss? I'd be sure to replicate the information given here.

 

[GenetoJean]

I guess my worries in this whole thing is this: If I have a child who has this issue, I don't want to do anything like what Joshua/Leelah's parents did. But at the same time, if there's a way to prevent/delay a sex change and perhaps make my child feel happy the way they are and to understand that God loves them no matter what, I'd like to explore any alternative options. I know that to you non-Christians posting here the sex change makes more sense, and in some cases it really seems like I'd agree. I think that if one was to get a sex change and it was a sin (which from a theological standpoint is something I'd prefer debating with other Christians who can speak clearly on this), it would just be a single sin, not a state of perpetual sinfulness, since according to Christian theology we all live that way. And as a Christian I think that even if humans are born flawed God does not "make a mistake" in allowing them to be born that way. It's a very troubling theodicy, I know, and I don't understand it very well myself. But I just don't want my future children to feel as if they are people that they really aren't and have to live with pain all of their lives, only to put on some physical disguise which, spiritually speaking, doesn't change who they are at all. So I guess I really don't know what to think on this issue.

So maybe I should take a copy of this to another section? Can we get like a duplicate of this thread for orthodox Christians only to discuss? I'd be sure to replicate the information given here.

Unfortunately we only have Leelah's blog to go on about her life and dont really know what her parents did or did not do. For this reason, I refuse to participate in the attacks on the poor girls parents.

To any parent I always suggest for them to keep the lines of communication open and show love. By saying this I do not mean they cant have their own opinions and express them, just dont dismiss or belittle the child.

 

[Cute Tink]

I guess my worries in this whole thing is this: If I have a child who has this issue, I don't want to do anything like what Joshua/Leelah's parents did. But at the same time, if there's a way to prevent/delay a sex change and perhaps make my child feel happy the way they are and to understand that God loves them no matter what, I'd like to explore any alternative options.

Well, just so you are aware (not sure if this was covered yet), but children don't get "the surgery". The first actual medical part of the transition that children can take part in is puberty blockers. Puberty blockers were actually invented for children who start puberty at too early an age. There are no side effects that I am aware of. They delay puberty and, if stopped, puberty resumes as normal. This gives trans identifying children an opportunity to decide if transition is really the right thing for them without having to worry about permanent changes caused by puberty.

After age 16, if the child has been consistently identifying as trans and experiencing gender dysphoria, then the child can start hormone replacement therapy.

After the child turns 18, then they become eligible for surgery, provided they meet all of the qualifying requirements.

I know that to you non-Christians posting here the sex change makes more sense, and in some cases it really seems like I'd agree.

Well, the thing is, when therapy only as a treatment was being tried, gender dysphoria was not being resolved. Surgery has a nearly 100% success rate of resolving it.

So maybe I should take a copy of this to another section? Can we get like a duplicate of this thread for orthodox Christians only to discuss? I'd be sure to replicate the information given here.

I'd say feel free. I'm sure you will get an entirely different perspective in that area, but I'm not sure it will really be better informed on the issues.

 

[Cute Tink]

Unfortunately we only have Leelah's blog to go on about her life and dont really know what her parents did or did not do. For this reason, I refuse to participate in the attacks on the poor girls parents.

I won't participate in the attacks either. I'm sure they are crushed that they lost their child.

 

[juvenissun]

I am not sure why you are lost, but feel free to ask whatever you like. I'm fairly well studied on the concept of gender identification, particularly as it relates to trans people, and I have no problem with answering questions.

How do I identify how much % of female nature I have?

Please don't let me read links. You may tell me about it in a simple way and if I don't get it, I will ask again.