Transsexuality

[Cute Tink]

Quote system fail...

What, however, I have problems to understand: What´s so important about aligning sex and gender? (It´s probably hard to explain to a person who hasn´t experienced the gap between sex and gender; I´d also like to emphasize that I am not asking because I feel you´d have to justify this need - but just because I have problems understanding it.

It is hard to explain, but I think it's great that you acknowledge that up front.

That difference, however, is the essence of gender dysphoria. For people who have milder cases, the need to align the two in the more literal sense may not be necessary. Then there are the more intense cases.

For those of us who feel the need to pursue that alignment, having the wrong body parts is a constant problem that we cannot get away from. It's sort of a combo of physical discomfort due to the body parts making things not fit right and even making sitting and other things awkward. Then there is the constant mental struggle of dealing with the things that don't match, feeling strange from the wrong hormones, etc.

Maybe another (hypothetical) question helps clarifying: In a culture that wouldn´t put so much emphasis on distinguishing people by means of their sexes - would the need to adjust your sex to your gender still be as urgent?

For many of us, the need would still be as strong. Societal acceptance would help with a lot of issues. Sort of a side benefit might be that we would actually have coverage for our transition related treatment instead of having to fight for it. It would also help with easing social transition. As far as still requiring physical transition, it would still depend on the individual.

 

[Cute Tink]

I liked the movie with Robin Williams.

Hook was a good movie, though I didn't really like the pick of Julia Roberts. Robin Williams was amazing as Pan though.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Hook was a good movie, though I didn't really like the pick of Julia Roberts. Robin Williams was amazing as Pan though.

I've always adored TinkerBell and Robin Williams and have no idea how I made it this far in life without being aware that movie existed until this very moment. I'm wondering what else has totally escaped my notice, haha. My boyfriend and I went as Tink and Peter Pan for Halloween in 2013! I LOVED IT. My main fascination with Tink as a child was actually the perfect shade of green of her costume, of all things.

Random assortment of babbling comments as I'm stuck in traffic and so bored -

I don't understand why people would read that much into anyone's screen name or make character and maturity assessments based on it. I've had two people question me about my use of Artemis, curious to know if I believe in mythology or if I agreed with her beliefs about hunting and perpetual virginity. No across the board!!!!!! I'm a vegetarian non-hunter, and ahem, yeah, no. I picked it because I'm an artist and I like the art in Artemis, because I wrote a song titled "The Hunt" and she was a huntress, and because as an archer she always hit her target, and...... because the other names I really wanted were already claimed.

As for transsexuality, I think tolerance and understanding of it is increasing the most with my generation, though slowly. I'm starting Stanford in the fall and have been reading about housing options and saw that they have a unique policy for transgender students. It's one of the first universities to have "gender neutral" housing in sensitivity to those who transgender. Those who identify as a gender other than the one they are legally considered to be can room with the other gender, if that person is in agreement. It's completely voluntary. There's actually a whole unofficial guide to trans life at Stanford.

 

[Cute Tink]

I've always adored TinkerBell and Robin Williams and have no idea how I made it this far in life without being aware that movie existed until this very moment. I'm wondering what else has totally escaped my notice, haha. My boyfriend and I went as Tink and Peter Pan for Halloween in 2013! I LOVED IT. My main fascination with Tink as a child was actually the perfect shade of green of her costume, of all things.

I feel pretty sure that you know about the Tinker Bell movies lol.

I was also Tink in 2013 oddly enough lol

I don't understand why people would read that much into anyone's screen name or make character and maturity assessments based on it. I've had two people question me about my use of Artemis, curious to know if I believe in mythology or if I agreed with her beliefs about hunting and perpetual virginity. No across the board!!!!!! I'm a vegetarian non-hunter, and ahem, yeah, no. I picked it because I'm an artist and I like the art in Artemis, because I wrote a song titled "The Hunt" and she was a huntress, and because as an archer she always hit her target, and...... because the other names I really wanted were already claimed.

I think it's mostly an attempt to discredit the fact that I'm trans, but I can't read thoughts.

I do think you have a great story for your screen name.

As for transsexuality, I think tolerance and understanding of it is increasing the most with my generation, though slowly. I'm starting Stanford in the fall and have been reading about housing options and saw that they have a unique policy for transgender students. It's one of the first universities to have "gender neutral" housing in sensitivity to those who transgender. Those who identify as a gender other than the one they are legally considered to be can room with the other gender, if that person is in agreement. It's completely voluntary. There's actually a whole unofficial guide to trans life at Stanford.

Thanks for what you said and I'm going to read over the Stanford information tomorrow.

 

[GenetoJean]

I feel pretty sure that you know about the Tinker Bell movies lol.

I was also Tink in 2013 oddly enough lol



I think it's mostly an attempt to discredit the fact that I'm trans, but I can't read thoughts.

I do think you have a great story for your screen name.



Thanks for what you said and I'm going to read over the Stanford information tomorrow.

I think she meant the movie Hook specifically.

 

[quatona]

Thanks for your response, Cute Tink.

I must admit that I still can´t imagine what you are describing as your inner condition. That´s probably simply because I can´t find any reference in myself, I can´t relate - IOW I can´t find any example of feelings I have that would make me go "Ah, gender dysphoria must feel similar to this but way more intense and urgent."

But apparently you OTOH can imagine how hard or impossible it must be for persons without this problem to relate - or else you wouldn´t be so patiently trying to explain and answer. Thanks for that, again.

Personally, I feel that for to understand better I´d need a different situation than an anonymous message board.

Quote system fail...



It is hard to explain, but I think it's great that you acknowledge that up front.

That difference, however, is the essence of gender dysphoria. For people who have milder cases, the need to align the two in the more literal sense may not be necessary. Then there are the more intense cases.

For those of us who feel the need to pursue that alignment, having the wrong body parts is a constant problem that we cannot get away from. It's sort of a combo of physical discomfort due to the body parts making things not fit right and even making sitting and other things awkward. Then there is the constant mental struggle of dealing with the things that don't match, feeling strange from the wrong hormones, etc.



For many of us, the need would still be as strong. Societal acceptance would help with a lot of issues. Sort of a side benefit might be that we would actually have coverage for our transition related treatment instead of having to fight for it. It would also help with easing social transition. As far as still requiring physical transition, it would still depend on the individual.

 

[Cute Tink]

I hate that the quote function keeps failing...

I think she meant the movie Hook specifically.

I have no doubt.

Thanks for your response, Cute Tink.

I must admit that I still can´t imagine what you are describing as your inner condition. That´s probably simply because I can´t find any reference in myself, I can´t relate - IOW I can´t find any example of feelings I have that would make me go "Ah, gender dysphoria must feel similar to this but way more intense and urgent."

But apparently you OTOH can imagine how hard or impossible it must be for persons without this problem to relate - or else you wouldn´t be so patiently trying to explain and answer. Thanks for that, again.

Personally, I feel that for to understand better I´d need a different situation than an anonymous message board.

Well, my therapist and another one that I have met who counsels trans patients, agree that while they can diagnose gender dysphoria and they can understand what it means to someone, they will never fully understand what it feels like. The closest thing, which I have never personally experienced so I cannot be sure, is the idea of phantom limb syndrome. It's still another one of those "similar but different" ideas.

I wish it were easier to explain, but I am more than willing to keep trying. I appreciate when someone, like you, tries to understand.

 

[Chesterton]

Most people do. The word "sex", as a noun, can refer to either the genetics of a person or the physical form of their genitals. The word "gender", which is often used incorrectly to differentiate physical form of the genitals, is an element of identity. It has no observable physical attribute. It DOES have some aspects of it portrayed physically in certain structures within the brain.

So can transsexuality be diagnosed with a CAT-scan or MRI or something like that?

Consider this question which I have posed to some who had difficulty in recognizing the element of gender within them apart from sex. This will require the use of your imagination. Suppose an alien race far superior to our own arrived here from another planet and took you hostage for experiments. While in their custody, they changed the genetics of each and every cell in your body to the opposite sex and also rearranged your physical form to make you look like the opposite sex. Everything functions as it would if you were born the opposite sex. However, you still think as you did. Nothing in your brain is changed. Then, they brought you back to Earth and set you free, but 200 years in the future. There is no one alive who has any memory of you. Would you WANT to revert back to the sex you were before your capture? If so, why?

Every cisgender person I have posed this question to has answered that they would want to revert because that is what they ARE. THAT is your gender asserting it's identity.

The question is unanswerable. Which is why I included animals in the OP. If aliens changed me into a tiger, and I still thought they way I did as a human, what would I want? I have no idea, because I have no idea what it's like to be a tiger, and I have little idea what it's like to be man even though I am one. (There are good points and bad points to being either tiger or human. ) Likewise, I have no idea what it's like to be woman. I know I have much more in common with women than I do with tigers of either sex but nonetheless, I don't know what it's like to be either.

All that aside from the fact that the analogy fails because you were born, not born then changed against your will.

You are in for a shock, then, to realize that there are a lot of women who have faerie tattoos.

You might be shocked to know the women and men and women/men I've known.

And in Shakespearean times, men played all of the roles, including females. What does that say?

It might say they were working on a budget and wanted to save time and money, like Monty Python.

I think it's mostly an attempt to discredit the fact that I'm trans, but I can't read thoughts.

I'm not attempting to discredit, just to question.

Well, my therapist and another one that I have met who counsels trans patients, agree that while they can diagnose gender dysphoria and they can understand what it means to someone, they will never fully understand what it feels like. The closest thing, which I have never personally experienced so I cannot be sure, is the idea of phantom limb syndrome. It's still another one of those "similar but different" ideas.

I wish it were easier to explain, but I am more than willing to keep trying. I appreciate when someone, like you, tries to understand.

The phantom limb syndrome is relatively easy to imagine, more so than transsexualism. It raises a question in my mind though - can someone be a homosexual and a transsexual simultaneously? Can one be born a man, "turn into" a woman, and be sexually attracted to women?

 

[Cute Tink]

So can transsexuality be diagnosed with a CAT-scan or MRI or something like that?

Not necessarily at this point. What we do know is that transsexuals have been found to have brain construction more like that of the stated gender than of their birth sex. It's possibilities as a diagnosis tool have not been tested.

You might be shocked to know the women and men and women/men I've known.

So you do acknowledge that there are adult women who are "into fairies" then.

It might say they were working on a budget and wanted to save time and money, like Monty Python.

Not according to historical notes. See here as one example.

I'm not attempting to discredit, just to question.

Then why assume that my screen name has anything to do with the fact that I'm trans?

The phantom limb syndrome is relatively easy to imagine, more so than transsexualism. It raises a question in my mind though - can someone be a homosexual and a transsexual simultaneously? Can one be born a man, "turn into" a woman, and be sexually attracted to women?

Given that sexual orientation is completely independent from gender identity, yes. A transsexual has the same capacity for sexual orientation as a non-trans person.

 

[StephanieSomer]

As for transsexuality, I think tolerance and understanding of it is increasing the most with my generation, though slowly. I'm starting Stanford in the fall and have been reading about housing options and saw that they have a unique policy for transgender students. It's one of the first universities to have "gender neutral" housing in sensitivity to those who transgender. Those who identify as a gender other than the one they are legally considered to be can room with the other gender, if that person is in agreement. It's completely voluntary. There's actually a whole unofficial guide to trans life at Stanford.

I just read through the guide you linked to, and further read some articles on the two trans professors spoken of in the guide. I am very impressed! After having had "issues" at a local community college which caused me to drop out, I am hopeful that things are indeed changing for the better. At my age, those societal changes may not pan out quickly enough for my own academic goals. But, it cheers me to realize that many younger trans folk after me will be able to take full advantage of what scholastic excellence has to offer.

 

[StephanieSomer]

quatona said, "I am totally aware that sex and gender are two different concepts.

What, however, I have problems to understand: What´s so important about aligning sex and gender? (It´s probably hard to explain to a person who hasn´t experienced the gap between sex and gender; I´d also like to emphasize that I am not asking because I feel you´d have to justify this need - but just because I have problems understanding it.
Maybe another (hypothetical) question helps clarifying: In a culture that wouldn´t put so much emphasis on distinguishing people by means of their sexes - would the need to adjust your sex to your gender still be as urgent?"

Sorry I took so long to respond directly to your question. I've been gathering my thoughts and trying to come up with some analogies that may prove helpful to your understanding.

The human body is our home, where we live. Unlike the structural houses in which we live, where we are able to move from room to room, we fill that home to capacity with our being. For instance, we are unable to move from one arm to the other, or one leg to the other. We fill the entire form. That form generally gives expression to the person living within. And we are all well able to recognize those differing "expressions" and derive information about each individual person, without ever speaking a word. With such information, we tailor our behavior towards that individual out of respect for who they are as a person.

When the outward form does not accurately portray who the person within is, that whole process is broken. And when it is broken in such a way, the individual with the incongruent body/self match is treated as someone they are not. From their perspective, their real identity is being ignored. Their true identity gets lost or thrown out as immaterial or worthless, not only by outsiders, but by themselves as well. By outsiders because the identification cues which we use are improperly displayed. And, by themselves because of the recognition that correcting others brings disdain and further rejection. So, the individual with the incongruent body/self match usually resorts to living a mask.

Masks are really very common in human experience. Most people use one to some extent. However, the extent to which a transsexual generally resorts is self-deprecating and destructive. It is that inward self-destructive tendency that very commonly leads to an actual outward destruction in the form of suicide. But, the affected individual feels driven to continue the mask and deception in order to achieve at least some semblance of acceptance and worth. It becomes an ever-increasing spiraling down into depression that obliterates the identity. It is as though they have been erased from reality and are refused entrance into relationships of value. It becomes utter hopelessness.


Now, to maybe give you something to which you might relate, I point you back to what I said about our being filling our form. In a very similar way, our clothing is tailored in such a way as to "fit" our form. Our outward form "fills" our clothing in very much the same way that our real identity "fills" our body. Try taking all your clothing off and putting it on backwards. Left shoe for right shoe, shirt buttoned in the back and turned inside out, and so on. Just how comfortable would you be? And, would your level of comfort influence your ability to function in your daily life?

Now, you CANNOT reverse your clothing. You MUST continue to wear them just as they are now, backwards. And, all of us will be watching to make sure you do not change them to a more comfortable position. And, if you fail to maintain this present appearance, we will all ridicule you and demean you to force you to abide by OUR wishes. How would THAT affect your outlook?

Does any of this help your understanding?