Transsexuality

[Chesterton]

Given what we know of chromosomes and whatnot, can you actually be a "woman born in a man's body" (or vice versa)? If so, 1) could this be evidence that we have souls and 2) can this mix-up happen with species as well as gender, i.e., can you be a horse born in a goat's body?

 

[juvenissun]

Given what we know of chromosomes and whatnot, can you actually be a "woman born in a man's body" (or vice versa)? If so, 1) could this be evidence that we have souls and 2) can this mix-up happen with species as well as gender, i.e., can you be a horse born in a goat's body?

Genetics of incarnation?

 

[Strathos]

From what I understand, it's the development of the brain that causes gender dysphoria, some genetic fluke in the womb can cause a female or male brain to exist in a body of the opposite gender.

 

[selfinflikted]

From what I understand, it's the development of the brain that causes gender dysphoria, some genetic fluke in the womb can cause a female or male brain to exist in a body of the opposite gender.

As far as my understanding goes, this is correct.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Given what we know of chromosomes and whatnot, can you actually be a "woman born in a man's body" (or vice versa)? If so, 1) could this be evidence that we have souls and 2) can this mix-up happen with species as well as gender, i.e., can you be a horse born in a goat's body?

After meeting with a transgendered person on here, I think I have an opinion now. Not a changed one, but a definite one.

The feelings of being one gender but trapped in another's body (transexuality) is, from a Christian view, a temptation, possibly from the devil/a demon, etc. The temptation is to defy one's natural, biological gender and go against God's design and intention--in a sense a transgendered person is declaring that God made a mistake in forming them the way He did, and that they are inherently flawed simply because of gender identity issues, which, when seen from God's perspective, is superficial. Can't everyone say that they are "flawed" in ways that aren't really all that flawed? The fact that some people have hormonal imbalances (not all transgendered people originally do, I don't think) adds to the biological and psychological pressure.

Because a sex change seems to be the obvious solution, transgendered people often get them and have few regrets afterwards. However, I still believe that they have sinned in that they have chosen to give in to the false, negative feelings that they are "imperfect" and "flawed" the way they are. Having gender dysphoria in and of itself isn't sinful.

At the same time, everyone gives in to sin. Because of that I don't think it's right to stigmatize these people. They're fortunate in that for them, "giving into temptation" is only possible once.

The important thing to remember is that there is neither male nor female in Christ. This does not mean that gender is an arbitrary social construct, I don't think; instead I think the application for transgendered people to remember is that from God's perspective, there is nothing inherently wrong with them that compels Him to regard them as worthless, and He can still use them for His plan no matter what their decision on the issue is.

It is worth noting, finally, that while a transgendered person usually ends up changing their name, their identity to God does not change, nor does their "old" or "new" identity mean anything to God. To Him they are still the same person that He loves

 

[loveofourlord]

Well gender despite what most want to think isn't that clearcut alot of things can lead to different situations the wrong hormone at the wrong time can leave someone more femanine mentally but physically male and vice versa, or you have men that are LITERALLY traped in a womans body untill puberty when the normal looking girl becomes a boy. If something like that can happen phyisicaly whos to say that can't happen with the brain and other things. There so many problems that come up that can't just be ignored or waved awy.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Given what we know of chromosomes and whatnot, can you actually be a "woman born in a man's body"

It depends on what you mean by woman and man. If a 'man' is someone with a Y chromosome, then people with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome are men. They have the typical XY male genetics, but have vahoohahs.

However, this is not what we usually mean (I think) by a man being born in the body of a woman, because "Individuals with CAIS are raised as females.[1] They are born phenotypically female and almost always have a heterosexual female gender identity."

What we usually mean is that someone's 'identity' -- how they see themselves -- is mismatched with their anatomy.

I don't know that chromosomes or putative souls have anything to do with that.

can this mix-up happen with species as well as gender, i.e., can you be a horse born in a goat's body?

Certainly not with chromosomes. But plenty of people appear to consider themselves to be something other than human.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Because a sex change seems to be the obvious solution, transgendered people often get them and have few regrets afterwards. However, I still believe that they have sinned in that they have chosen to give in to the false, negative feelings that they are "imperfect" and "flawed" the way they are.

What about surgically correcting a cleft palate, or removing an extra finger? Are these examples of giving into false negative feelings?

If 'there is neither male nor female in Christ', then what's the difference between surgery on a finger or on your gonads?

 

[Split Rock]

Given what we know of chromosomes and whatnot, can you actually be a "woman born in a man's body" (or vice versa)? If so, 1) could this be evidence that we have souls and 2) can this mix-up happen with species as well as gender, i.e., can you be a horse born in a goat's body?

There are genetic factors other than whether you have a set of XX or XY chromosomes that factor into gender identity. A transgender male is still physiological a male, for example, even if he feels like he is a female.

 

[Jesse2014]

I am just subscribing. I am curious about this subject myself.

 

[selfinflikted]

What about surgically correcting a cleft palate, or removing an extra finger? Are these examples of giving into false negative feelings?

If 'there is neither male nor female in Christ', then what's the difference between surgery on a finger or on your gonads?

I'd like to hear the poster's response to these questions as well as:

The poster says that, in a nutshell, transgendered people are basically telling god he made a mistake. Well, what about intersexed people (and other people born into this world with missing limbs, for instance, or any other such special cases)?

 

[[serious]]

It depends on what you mean by woman and man. If a 'man' is someone with a Y chromosome, then people with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome are men. They have the typical XY male genetics, but have vahoohahs.

However, this is not what we usually mean (I think) by a man being born in the body of a woman, because "Individuals with CAIS are raised as females.[1] They are born phenotypically female and almost always have a heterosexual female gender identity."

What we usually mean is that someone's 'identity' -- how they see themselves -- is mismatched with their anatomy.

I don't know that chromosomes or putative souls have anything to do with that.



Certainly not with chromosomes. But plenty of people appear to consider themselves to be something other than human.

Beat me to it.

Also, hipster science nerds knew about it before House did an episode on it.

 

[Split Rock]

I'd like to hear the poster's response to these questions as well as:

The poster says that, in a nutshell, transgendered people are basically telling god he made a mistake. Well, what about intersexed people (and other people born into this world with missing limbs, for instance, or any other such special cases)?

That's 'cause of The Fall and The Curse.

 

[Cute Tink]

Given what we know of chromosomes and whatnot, can you actually be a "woman born in a man's body" (or vice versa)? If so, 1) could this be evidence that we have souls and 2) can this mix-up happen with species as well as gender, i.e., can you be a horse born in a goat's body?

Transsexuals are not necessarily the result of a chromosomal mixup. People who have chromosome combos like XXY, XYY or XO are typically classified as "intersex", along with people who have genitalia that doesn't really qualify as "male" or "female" or they have the genitals of both.

No, this would not lend itself to believing you are born in the wrong species. That would be an entirely different situation which, far as I am aware, is not supported by any medical studies at this time.

What is being researched is the concept that someone's brain may develop along the lines of the gender opposite to what they were born, probably due to faulty hormone interaction during fetal development (which may also be the cause of the more visible physical condition of intersex), but studies are fairly recent and the results are not yet conclusive.

As another member posted, a person who is born with XY could develop a female body due to CAIS, where the person's body is immune to testosterone. There is also the XX person who's body develops externally male while internally female which is called Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia.

The idea that we are all born either 100% male or 100% female is misinformed. There are many birth abnormalities out there. Some are visible and some are not.

FYI, the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, among other associations, agree that gender dysphoria is, in fact, not a mental illness and is a legitimate medical condition.

 

[Cute Tink]

I'd like to hear the poster's response to these questions as well as:

The poster says that, in a nutshell, transgendered people are basically telling god he made a mistake. Well, what about intersexed people (and other people born into this world with missing limbs, for instance, or any other such special cases)?

I'll keep recycling my usual posts here...

While I have heard of some trans people who believe God made a mistake, I've never personally seen someone make that argument. It is equally possible that God intends on trans people to exist or that God has nothing to do with the general development of each person.

 

[grandvizier1006]

Ok, you all made good points. I'm sorry that I discounted various biological and physical examples of gender dysphoria. I guess it really is a theological gray area. I'm sorry if that came across as insensitive to transgendered people who legitimately did have some biological gender issues.

I was really only thinking of it in terms of identity, but obviously there are multiple facets to this. So I guess I'll rephrase my position in light of all this.

I understand that it is probably very insensitive of me to say that someone who undergoes a sex change is "sinning". But I also believe that this might not necessarily be the only solution. Couldn't a person with gender identity issues (assuming that they are "leaning more towards" one gender over another, namely their "assigned/birth/original" gender) simply find some way to be more comfortable with their "assigned" gender? It seems to me like some could, depending on the severity of their gender dysphoria.

But if we're talking about something like a sort of hermaphroditism (I'm not sure if I'm using that correctly, I'm really trying not to be insensitive on this topic after my "rant" on another thread), then I suppose some sort of "correction" can be made, which would be the same thing as fixing a cleft palate. However, I think this seems like something that needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

I was really primarily thinking of people who "feel" that they are the "wrong" gender, as in there is little or no biological component suggesting such. Like, say, they have a "man's brain in a woman's body" or something. I believe that if it's exclusively a mental issue, then perhaps some spiritual help could be effective and a sex change might not be necessary. But that's just my thoughts.

As for chromosomes, well, to me they seem like firm indicators of what gender one "should" be, ideally. But since even that is often distorted with multiple sex chromosomes, etc., then I don't know if that's the best indicator. I unfortunately have no experience with this, but ultimately I'm just trying to figure out how to handle this from a Christian perspective, so maybe I'm in the wrong place. And it seems to me that if one is only choosing one's gender based on one's "feelings", then maybe these "feelings" are not a good indicator of what gender a person really is. If there are other components to it, then perhaps there is more to the story.

I still stand by my belief, though, that when the Bible says, "neither male nor female...in Christ," it does not mean that genders are purely arbitrary, but instead that God, while He has His reasons for making most people a definite, fixed gender, does not use it as an exclusive factor in determining His plan for a person. So if a person had a sex change, to God there is no change at all. Having said that, I feel like He would view such a thing as a sort of "disguise", and I think if such a thing was not actually necessary (again, not sure what that entails or whatever), then it would be a sin against Him since you would be deciding that God's design is "incorrect". But again, I mean no ill will towards transgendered people who make that decision for any reason. God would forgive you of something like that if it was indeed a sin.

 

[selfinflikted]

That's 'cause of The Fall and The Curse.

Standard, tired answer is standard and tired.

But even if that were the case, wouldn't attempting to "fix" that part of the Curse in an individual be a good thing?

 

[selfinflikted]

I'll keep recycling my usual posts here...

While I have heard of some trans people who believe God made a mistake, I've never personally seen someone make that argument. It is equally possible that God intends on trans people to exist or that God has nothing to do with the general development of each person.

Bolding mine. I would tend towards this answer

 

[selfinflikted]

I understand that it is probably very insensitive of me to say that someone who undergoes a sex change is "sinning". But I also believe that this might not necessarily be the only solution. Couldn't a person with gender identity issues (assuming that they are "leaning more towards" one gender over another, namely their "assigned/birth/original" gender) simply find some way to be more comfortable with their "assigned" gender? It seems to me like some could, depending on the severity of their gender dysphoria.

Can you tell someone with depression, "Hey. Stop being sad!" or someone with OCD to "stop being weird!"? No, I'm afraid it doesn't work like that.

But if we're talking about something like a sort of hermaphroditism (I'm not sure if I'm using that correctly, I'm really trying not to be insensitive on this topic after my "rant" on another thread), then I suppose some sort of "correction" can be made, which would be the same thing as fixing a cleft palate. However, I think this seems like something that needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

So, if it's a physical abnormality (for lack of a better phrase), it's ok to fix it. But if the problem is "all in the mind" (as you seem to suggest) then people should just "get over it?"

 

[Cute Tink]

Ok, you all made good points. I'm sorry that I discounted various biological and physical examples of gender dysphoria. I guess it really is a theological gray area. I'm sorry if that came across as insensitive to transgendered people who legitimately did have some biological gender issues.

The fact that you are responding like this shows you don't intend any offense and I'm glad you are open to new information.

I understand that it is probably very insensitive of me to say that someone who undergoes a sex change is "sinning". But I also believe that this might not necessarily be the only solution. Couldn't a person with gender identity issues (assuming that they are "leaning more towards" one gender over another, namely their "assigned/birth/original" gender) simply find some way to be more comfortable with their "assigned" gender? It seems to me like some could, depending on the severity of their gender dysphoria.

Yes, depending on the severity of the dysphoria a particular person experiences, therapy could be enough for them. Some people don't feel the need to transition, but those with severe gender dysphoria do also have fairly serious depression that goes along with it.

But if we're talking about something like a sort of hermaphroditism (I'm not sure if I'm using that correctly, I'm really trying not to be insensitive on this topic after my "rant" on another thread), then I suppose some sort of "correction" can be made, which would be the same thing as fixing a cleft palate. However, I think this seems like something that needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Hermaphroditism is an older term and it is my understanding that the term intersex is preferred now, even if it applies to more than to those who have both sex of genitalia.

I can assure you that each person's case is meant to be dealt with individually. Not everyone who goes to see a therapist for gender issues is put on hormones quickly and gets in line for surgery. It is a long process with many months of counseling before any medication is prescribed or any procedures are recommended.

Also, most surgeons in the US require letters from 2 different psychologists/psychiatrists before they will operate.

I was really primarily thinking of people who "feel" that they are the "wrong" gender, as in there is little or no biological component suggesting such. Like, say, they have a "man's brain in a woman's body" or something. I believe that if it's exclusively a mental issue, then perhaps some spiritual help could be effective and a sex change might not be necessary. But that's just my thoughts.

Unfortunately, that is one of those "best fit" metaphors in trying to describe something that is really hard to describe in a relatable way. Science does actually show in some studies that there is a physical difference between the brains of trans people and non-trans people - in that the brains correspond more closely to the identified gender than that of their birth sex.